Another unreg DUI thread... I know

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So I would be posting this under my user name, pchase (that I created earlier this afternoon) but I didn't get an activation email, and I just have to "talk" about it because I'm losing it.

First; I know within the next 2-3 posts someone will say "Contact Dr. Bruce!" I've done that. I emailed him through the website tonight, and hope to hear from him next week before he leaves for vacation on the 29th (though I know his is surely busy and know I may not get a response from him until he returns).

I've always wanted to get my private pilot cert but always thought it was out of my reach. I flew with a friend of my grandfather's when I was little in his C150 and absolutely loved it. Grew up on MS Flight Simulator, actually trying to fly correctly, not just crashing into things. Recently I was talking to a friend that flies blackhawks and he said if I want to get it, just dive in, pay for lessons when I can afford it and eventually I'll get there, so I did. I went on a discovery flight Thursday, and am scheduled for my first lesson next Thursday. They gave me the medical info with a list of local AME's and I was on top of the world.

Then I started the 8500-8 and got to number 18... In October of 2011 I was arrested for DUI. I won't make any excuses, I won't moan about "I was good" any of that. Regardless of the circumstances, what my BAC was, what the law says, I knew I was wrong, plain and simple and I have since made major life changes (cut my "drinking buddies" out of my life, though I know it was not THEIR fault, but they were an excuse I gave to myself to drink). I won't lie and say I stopped drinking totally, however these days I rarely drink, and don't "go out drinking." Maybe a beer with dinner or a on a special occasion where I know I won't be driving (and no one else will be either... riding with a drunk driver is just as bad as being one!!!).

Now from what I've read, I would be ok right there... had I submitted to the BAC test. Yes I refused. It turned out to be a sound legal strategy, as the case was dropped, however it resulted in losing my license for 6 months, and then having it restricted for 6 more. This is where the issue comes in. I realize that means my medical will get a mandatory deferral to OKC and I'll have some legwork to do if I want this to happen. While I await the good doctor's advice I thought I might prostrate myself before the people of POA and see what y'all think.

NOW, there's more... like that wasn't enough. Before all that happened, in 2009 or 2010, I was prescribed citalopram (an SSRI) for a period of about 6 months. I had some major life events and have a tough go of it, but I got through it, and no longer needed the medication. In hindsight, I should have refused it altogether, but I work in a pharmacy, and we dispense TONS of SSRI's so I thought nothing of it. Well it seems the FAA isn't a big fan of those either. This wasn't even a concern of mine until I read the other SSRI threads below, tonight. The DUI was my biggest concern, but now I see people talking about $4000 for psych evals related to SSRI's and here I am working extra hours just to pay my lessons. Again, I know Dr. Chien is the definitive word in this area, especially, so I'm hoping he gets back to me soon and has good news (or at least not terrible news).

I know this was terribly long, and if you made it this far, thank you for your time. If you have anything to add please do, good or bad, I can only work with the truth. And if you think I'm a terrible person for the DUI, well I agree. I was terrible, and I hate what I did to myself, but it was a hard and expensive lesson that I learned, and I am just thankful that I learned it that way and not wrapped around a tree, or worse having killed an innocent person. I know it goes without saying around here, but JUST DON'T DO IT! Get a cab, or get a friend that doesn't drink to drive you. Better yet, go hang out with that friend that doesn't drink and do something ELSE!! If he doesn't drink, he likely does something else really fun instead.


TL;DR

Just your run of the mill "I'm a dumb*ss with a DUI that wants to fly" thread, just with no excuses. And I did email Dr. Bruce.
 
Man, I don't have anything to say other than good luck. Hopefully you and Dr Bruce can work this out for you!
 
I am no expert but I think you may have cause to be optimistic. You know that your failure to test will result in a deferral which you'll have to follow-up with convincing enough evidence that you're not at risk to become a substance abuser. Sounds like you're had a clean record for nearly 4 years and you have taken active steps in your life to address your stressors and stay clear of the bottle. Also sounds like this was an isolated, one-time occurrence rather than a pattern.

Have you seen this regarding the SSRI: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...process/exam_tech/item47/amd/antidepressants/ ? Read it and look at the decision path I PDF. There's also this as a point of reference: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=11293

The overall impression I get is that the FAA is concerned about people flying while taking SSRIs and the mental health of pilots who have just quit taking SSRIs. Again in your case this was an isolated episode years in the past. Unless you have a history of clinical depression, I'm not sure that you need a special issuance based on the FAA flowchart. See this: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...m/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/m/ Even if you answer yes to the depression box, that should only result in the examiner asking you further questions and determining if you're at risk of losing your marbles or not. It doesn't appear to automatically result in deferral and head-shrinking.

Edit: The reason I'm optimistic is because I got my medical and I had passed a couple of kidney stones about 2 years before applying. That's another hot-button condition that can result in a lot of expensive testing, but it wound up being only a small bump in the road because it was neither chronic nor recent. Your results may vary with your AME, though -- mine was eager to please and got right on the phone to make sure he could grant my medical without it being at risk of deferral upon review. Other AMEs may not take the time and effort, so ask around and find someone with a reputation for sympathy and a little experience dealing with issues like yours.
 
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The FAA isn't concerned with legal strategy or guilt or innocence. Your refusal will be viewed by the FAA as indication that you were extremely intoxicated and likely will be so again at any time. Bruce can give you the details.

The SSRI issue by itself wouldn't have been that much of a problem. For a transient use of SSRI for a defined event that you have demonstrated recovery from, you won't need the full PPP (starts at $1200 or so and works upward depending on how many visits the psychiatrist needs before he considers he knows you. If you had been working with a PSYCHIATRIST, i.e., an MD before that's likely no more additional meetings other than writing the letter) workup. Just being off the drugs for a prolonged time with no further effects would have been fine.

You might want to give Doc Bruce a call during office hours or PM him on the AOPA board. The email form on his website seems to be spuriously broken at times.
 
Having taken an SSRI in the past for situational reasons that have been resolved shouldn't be a problem.

Having refused the BAC test is a big problem, but it probably can be overcome if you follow Bruce's advice to the letter and have enough money to pay for whatever tests / evaluations / ongoing supervision the FAA requires.

Rich
 
flyingron said:
You might want to give Doc Bruce a call during office hours or PM him on the AOPA board. The email form on his website seems to be spuriously broken at times.
Click to expand...

This. I think there's a direct email address for him floating around somewhere - the address from his website doesn't always work. Phone call is much better. And be totally honest with Bruce - he does not tolerate anything else.
 
If the medical path doesn't work out, there are many other paths through the sky. Most more fun then vanilla GA.
 
Brad Z said:
Regarding the DUI, see page 37-39 of the AME's guide...

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/media/guide.pdf

You may want to consider waiting five years from the DUI event as arrest details and court records are required to be submitted for DUI events with 5yrs. If you haven't been denied a medical certificate, sport pilot is an option.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a good move if that's true.

Go get your sport license and fly with your drivers license medical till the window is up then upgrade to a PPL.
 
Yeah I know they don't care about the legal part. I've read enough to know this certainly won't be easy. I didn't know about the problems with Dr. Chien's website, but I certainly planned on calling his office Tuesday. There are 2 HIMS AMEs that are fairly close, so if he recommends that I'm good with it.
I guess I really don't have a question that can be answered here, I just needed to vent more than anything. I certainly appreciate the advice, and I'll keep this thread updated with my progress. In googling for this I've seen a lot of people asking about it but little follow up. So in the interest of helping future reformed idiots in my position I'll detail everything I have to do, (if I can afford it). Hopefully it will be a very boring tale of waiting anxiously for a few months with a very happy yet anticlimactic ending... Fingers crossed.

One more thing, FlyingRon, on your estimate of $1200 for the psych eval, do you know if the substance abuse eval would be roughly similar in cost. I know everywhere is different, but if it costs me as much as a machine gun ($4000) I'll just stick to my gun hobby. Haha

Again, I thank you all for the help.
 
Sorry, I'm posting from my phone. I missed that sport pilot cert info. I'll look into that. The only issue is I was going to rely on renting for now, and there is nowhere to rent LSA around here, that I know of. But it's an option. Or I can just wait a year and a half so it'll be 5 years, if that really makes the situation better.
 
Lurker here, but I think it's time to contribute.

Your experience is pretty close to mine regarding the DUI situation, can't help with the SSRI but some other people already gave you some peace of mind about it.

I also had an arrest, refused the test, charges were dropped. The FAA doesn't care the charges were dropped.
It's not like another poster said that they think you were extremely intoxicated when you refused (when you think about it, refusing it and taking the 5th is the sober thing to do). The FAA wants to catch the chronic alcoholic.
Because of this, they have different criteria depending on your BAC.
Thing is, if you can operate a motor vehicle with 0.20 BAC, you are probably drunk a lot, because you developed a high tolerance. A social drinker that gets the occasional beer with dinner can't operate the car ignition on that level (I know there are exceptions, but this is the medical general assumption).

So, if you can drive and your BAC is over 0.15 (I think that's a cut-off for the FAA), you are looked at more closely than if you got busted on 0.08.
Let's be honest, most normal drinkers that one wouldn't call drunks or alcoholics can probably jump around the cop at 0.08, so if you get caught at that level, you were probably having the first drink of your life and they give you a "pass" (as in there might be less hoops to jump).

No BAC reading?, they have no idea, they have no way to correlate your behavior to your BAC, and you get deferred and looked at more closely (kind of as if you were high BAC).

Now to the important part, what does this mean specifically and how much is this going to cost.
I suggest you work with Dr. Bruce or another good AME, their fees are super reasonable (probably a hundred or two - I know, but that's one hour in the air, so in the context of aviation it's nothing).

They are going to ask for:

1) All court records and police report. This costs nothing to get (maybe a couple of bucks for the trouble). You get this from the court. You can start with this process.
It will take a week or two I guess. It's very state dependent, but I don't think any state is awful about it. Depending on your state you might not even be able to get it, but in that case they'll be able to provide you a letter stating why you can't get it and all that stuff, and the FAA will accept it along with item number 2, and you'll get your medical.

2) A substance abuse evaluation: Since it's one incident, some time ago, they agreed on dropping charges, and all that, this is really light. What it comes down to is setting up an appointment with one of these Substance Abuse Professional guys, and having a talk. They'll ask you some questions (honestly I think you can't fail this even if you are an alcoholic, you have to be wasted when you show up to fail. And on acid.)
This should run you 300 - 500 dollars from what I heard. I payed more, because I didn't have time to deal with the "professionals" that work with the rehab centers (that go straight to voice mail and what not) and went with a psych that obviously had a boat payment coming up. Whatever, it made it less painful I guess, but you can get it cheap and it should have the same effect. I also happen to live in a really expensive area with access to boats.

So summing up, for cost expect 500 - 1000, most likely towards the lower end, but super worst case it's a grand. Time wise, I think if you start with Bruce and have everything lined up it shouldn't be more than 2 months, and that's pessimistic I believe.
I did it all wrong and bombed into a crap AME office and had to wait for letters, appointments, went on vacation in the middle, and it was over that, but still wasn't more than 3 months, 4 maybe.

I know the stress, but just go through the steps one at a time, it's worth it.
 
Oh and by the way, waiting 5 years won't change anything.
It just says that they MUST get all the records if it was within five years because they know most states archive and maybe seal them after that time. I guess it's a work around for that.
You'll still get deferred if you refused the BAC test or if it was over 0.15.
Actually if you look at the first item it means that if you are past 5 years and you can't get the records, they have to defer, it doesn't mean that you are cleared. I would think if you can't get the records, even if you were 0 BAC and it was a mistake, they'll defer and make you jump through the hoops just because since you can't get the records, you can't really prove you were sober and the officer was wrong in arresting you.

Here's the applicable section from the linked PDF (emphasis mine):

Deferral Criteria: The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
• Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the
date of the exam
• For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
o Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant
registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
o Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant
refused blood alcohol testing
o Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2
years AND IF THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or
administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
o Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a
lifetime
o Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the
preceding 10 years
 
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