Another Panel Upgrade Thread - Add WAAS

jdfrey1

jdfrey1

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Jeff Frey
So, I'm starting to really feel like I want a WAAS capable GPS in my airplane. When I completed my instrument rating a couple of years ago I felt that my personal minimums were higher than any non-precision approach so I felt good about my current equipment. However, I really like the idea of having vertical guidance and more approach options. So, I have a couple of ideas that I wanted to get some opinions on. Attached you will see a picture of the panel in my 1979 Piper Archer. Here is what I'm considering:

Option 1 - Simply upgrade the Garmin 430 to a 430W and keep everything else the same. I know I will also need a new CDI as my current CDI doesn't have the GPS indicators. The Collins radio still works great but my #2 CDI doesn't have a glideslope.

Option 2 - Remove the Collins NAV/Comm that is my NAV2 and move the Garmin 430 down. Add a new Garmin GTN650 or 430W. Any suggestions on which route to take or if there is something else I should be considering?

Additional - I currently have the Piper Autocontrol IIIB that works quite well and is coupled to both NAV/Comms via a switch. I would like to add altitude hold and have roll steering ability so I can fly fully coupled approaches. What are my options and estimated prices to do this economically?

I know there are a lot of other upgrade options such as an Aspen but honestly I'm not really interested in replacing my steam gauges. Any direction on my upgrade options and recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you have some guidance on directionally how much each of these options would cost me I'd appreciate it.
 

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Jeff, I will throw out one idea. First the phrase panel upgrade and economically don't go well together.
If you plan to fly much actual it would be nice to have the WAAS. Upgrading the 430 is expensive but might be cheapest way. As far as an indicator I would try hard to swing an HSI to be fed from the 430. GPSS is going to be expensive to add to your set up. Altitude hold would be more important to me. I guess in order of importance to me would be:
WASS
HSI
altitude hold
GPSS
HSI and altitude hold might could be switched in importance, close call.
What will that cost, don't know but it will be a bunch.
 
You may want to check to see if you 430 can be upgraded to WAAS. I have heard that Garmin is no longer supporting the base 430s for upgrades, although they are supporting the 530s. Don't know this for a fact, other than one person I know who, upon asking Garmin to upgrade his 430 to a 430W, was told "Nope, you missed your window of opportunity." I had no issues getting my 530 upgraded to a 530W in December. This may help guide your decision.

Ronnie has it dead on - "panel upgrade" and "economical" don't belong in the same sentence. But you do typically save some money by doing things together, as there isn't a duplication of labor.

An HSI is very nice to have if you're flying IFR much, especially down low. If you're looking at wanting to add GPSS roll steering while you're at it, I've been very happy with my Aspen EFD1000Pro in the 310 (I know you said you didn't want one). The GPSS roll steering works nicely and should work easily with your current autopilot. I had the GPSS do a teardrop hold entry, switch approaches with a bunch of turns, and it never skipped a beat. Worked great. Beyond that, I'm sure there are other GPSS options, I'm just not entirely sure what they are.

As far as the autopilot work, you're talking about a good chunk of change, since you're now looking at just buying a new autopilot altogether.
 
You might not have to get a GPS annunciator if the 430 (or upgrade) is within the pilot's field of view. It's in an AC somewhere, but I can't remember the number off the top of my head.

Edit: Found this about the annunciator subject. It's not the AC,though.

For GPSS, you could try the Icarus SAM (http://icarusavionics.com/~icarusav/). It's around $2100. See also this thread here at POA.

S-Tec also makes a GPSS module for a similar price, as well as an altitude hold module (the System Thirty ALT), which can also do glideslope coupling if you elect to go with the System Sixty PSS. The prices on those made me gasp a little, so yeah your budget is going to be important. :eek:
 
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rpadula said:
S-Tec also makes a GPSS module for a similar price, as well as an altitude hold module (the System Thirty ALT), which can also do glideslope coupling if you elect to go with the System Sixty PSS. The prices on those made me gasp a little, so yeah your budget is going to be important. :eek:
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*YIKES* I just looked at the System 30 ALT price and can't believe how expensive that is! $9k for an independent altitude hold?!? I think I can trim my airplane out and maintain altitude myself. The glideslope coupling is completely out of reach for me.

So maybe the scope of my upgrade is changing a bit. Hopefully I can still get an upgrade on the 430 to a 430W. Then maybe I can move my #1 CDI down to my #2 so I have glideslope on the Collins and purchase a new GI-106A CDI for the 430W. Then adding a GPSS roll steering module wouldn't break the bank either.
 
Jeff, I still think the HSI is much more important than GPSS. I do like the GPSS feature. The only thing it does is make the auto pilot work better when useing a GPS as a source. It will let the AP anticipate the turns shown by the dotted lines and of course let you enter the hold with the AP. In other words the AP follows the magenta line rather than the HSI needle. In faster planes it is more important (IMO) as the turn anticipation can get away from you a little quicker when flying the first segment of a typical "T" GPS approach at 160 knots as opposed to perhaps 90 knots. Not sure about the WAAS update on the 430. I do know if you ever need a repair you will have to get the WAAS update before they will do the repair. That makes me think the update is still available on the 430. I think it is in the $3K range. Either way good luck!!
 
I'd agree with Ronnie that I'd take an HSI before GPSS. The HSI is a very nice item to have.

Of course, the problem with HSIs is that, with few exceptions, the cost is such that you're better off getting an Aspen. Ron Levy has pointed out a couple of units that can be had inexpensively, but your install price will still be significant.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You may want to check to see if you 430 can be upgraded to WAAS. I have heard that Garmin is no longer supporting the base 430s for upgrades, although they are supporting the 530s. Don't know this for a fact, other than one person I know who, upon asking Garmin to upgrade his 430 to a 430W, was told "Nope, you missed your window of opportunity." I had no issues getting my 530 upgraded to a 530W in December. This may help guide your decision.
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Spoke with a local shop here in the ATL area about a week ago to get pricing on upgrading a 430 and they gave no indication that it couldn't be done. I was speaking to the lady that answers the phone......soooooo. I made the call because I wanted to know if they were still upgrading them or not.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree with Ronnie that I'd take an HSI before GPSS. The HSI is a very nice item to have.

Of course, the problem with HSIs is that, with few exceptions, the cost is such that you're better off getting an Aspen. Ron Levy has pointed out a couple of units that can be had inexpensively, but your install price will still be significant.
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Yep, with the Aspen and you get the HSI and GPSS as a part of that unit, plus a 'glass panel' to boot.
 
rpadula said:
You might not have to get a GPS annunciator if the 430 (or upgrade) is within the pilot's field of view. It's in an AC somewhere, but I can't remember the number off the top of my head.
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It's in the installation manual, not an Advisory Circular.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree with Ronnie that I'd take an HSI before GPSS. The HSI is a very nice item to have.

Of course, the problem with HSIs is that, with few exceptions, the cost is such that you're better off getting an Aspen. Ron Levy has pointed out a couple of units that can be had inexpensively, but your install price will still be significant.
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Although I'm a big fan of HSIs I'm going to disagree that a HSI is more useful than a GPSS and I know for a fact that any HSI installation is going to cost considerably more than GPSS. A new GPSS from Century or DAC can be had for around $1500 with another $800-1200 for installation and it does a lot of nice things (like flying a complete approach including a PT, the miss, and the hold). And while HSIs are great for concentrating your scan a little, a GPS496 mounted near the 6 pack is nearly as good for that and adds quite a bit of functionality as well. The NAV page on a 430W does about the same if you can mount the radio close to the flight instruments.

As to altitude hold and GS coupling there's not a lot of bang for bucks in an aircraft as stable in pitch as most Piper and Cessna singles are.

I do agree that anyone contemplating a HSI installation would do well to go for an Aspen PFD which does so much more and would add considerably more to the resale value of the airplane than a mechanical HSI. The Aspen would weigh a lot less as well and while the installation of the PFD is more complicated than a HSI, the extra install cost wouldn't be huge either because most HSIs have 4 items needing a separate home.
 
EppyGA said:
Spoke with a local shop here in the ATL area about a week ago to get pricing on upgrading a 430 and they gave no indication that it couldn't be done. I was speaking to the lady that answers the phone......soooooo. I made the call because I wanted to know if they were still upgrading them or not.
Click to expand...

Well, it certainly can still be done. The question is whether you can pay Garmin the $3,000 for an upgrade, or whether you have to buy a 430W and then sell your base 430. :)

gismo said:
Although I'm a big fan of HSIs I'm going to disagree that a HSI is more useful than a GPSS and I know for a fact that any HSI installation is going to cost considerably more than GPSS. A new GPSS from Century or DAC can be had for around $1500 with another $800-1200 for installation and it does a lot of nice things (like flying a complete approach including a PT, the miss, and the hold).
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I'd agree that GPSS has nifty features, but I would prefer an HSI to GPSS. Then again, I'm also the sort of pilot who hand flies more than I use the autopilot as a rule, especially when it comes to complicated procedures. Comes down to a matter of preference for me.

I wasn't aware of the costs for just adding GPSS steering since, for me, that was never something I was interested in putting in. To me it was a bonus that came when the Aspen was installed. I do like it, but I still wouldn't spend the money to install it by itself. I'm still not sure I like it quite as much as the autopilot working in a traditional mode, but the Century III isn't the best. When I'm dealing with the KFC300 in the Commander or Cheyenne, it's a much better autopilot all around. At that price point, it might be a worthwhile upgrade. But then if you compare the cost of an HSI install plus a GPSS install, you might be getting close to the price of an Aspen.

I do agree that anyone contemplating a HSI installation would do well to go for an Aspen PFD which does so much more and would add considerably more to the resale value of the airplane than a mechanical HSI. The Aspen would weigh a lot less as well and while the installation of the PFD is more complicated than a HSI, the extra install cost wouldn't be huge either because most HSIs have 4 items needing a separate home.
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I'm a big fan of the Aspen for sure because of the value it provides. When we installed ours in the 310, the plane lost 60 lbs with all the extra junk they took out. I'm halfway wishing that we'd opted for putting in the MFD500 (or is it EFD500? I forget) with the PFD1000, but if we choose to do that, the panel is set up so that we could do it easily enough later.

One probably needs to look at the aircraft. When you're talking about an older Archer, it's worth considering whether or not it's worth dumping $20,000 into the panel. That's a personal choice, of course (and some people would probably question why we did this on the 310), but it's a consideration still. It's easy to get carried away with avionics upgrades very quickly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree that GPSS has nifty features, but I would prefer an HSI to GPSS. Then again, I'm also the sort of pilot who hand flies more than I use the autopilot as a rule, especially when it comes to complicated procedures. Comes down to a matter of preference for me.
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Well, you've got me there. GPSS is of little value if you don't use your autopilot much (unless the reason you don't is because you don't have the functionality that GPSS brings). So I guess I should change my observation to be: If you use your autopilot on procedures (approach, missed approach, SID, STAR) GPSS with WAAS offers more than a HSI, especially if you have a GPS near the flight instruments that can display a HSI like presentation. But if you mostly fly by hand, a HSI is a very helpful tool.

But it's still not as economical to install a HSI when for a medium amount more you could get an Aspen PFD.
 
gismo said:
Well, you've got me there. GPSS is of little value if you don't use your autopilot much (unless the reason you don't is because you don't have the functionality that GPSS brings). So I guess I should change my observation to be: If you use your autopilot on procedures (approach, missed approach, SID, STAR) GPSS with WAAS offers more than a HSI, especially if you have a GPS near the flight instruments that can display a HSI like presentation. But if you mostly fly by hand, a HSI is a very helpful tool.
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Agree completely.

I'm a believer in the importance of hand flying. This was, perhaps, cemented in me early on by flying planes with autopilots that routinely stopped working, and couldn't do a good enough job of shooting an approach to satisfy me, anyway. This is assuming they even had an autopilot in the first place. Before you showed me that my Altimatic IIIB actually had some level of functionality in the Aztec back at Gaston's a few years ago, I had only hand flown it. I still have been known to hand fly the 310 to Houston and back just because it's fun.

My use of the autopilot is increasing now with the turboprop aircraft I fly, but I still hand fly the fun parts when appropriate, if nothing else to get to know the aircraft.

But it's still not as economical to install a HSI when for a medium amount more you could get an Aspen PFD.
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Agree completely, too. :)
 
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