Another comm question

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Final Approach
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Ben
With the landings, including power-off 180, is there any leeway in power adjustment? My understanding (and how I'm being taught) is that you do NOT touch power once it is off. If you do, you've blown the maneuver. Similarly, for other landings, "stabilized" means you don't touch power, except for very minor changes. If you have to pull and push, you blew it.

That's been my standard, in "real flying." And if I felt that if I needed to make major changes in power on short final, I'd just go around! What's that cost in a single--$5?
 
With the landings, including power-off 180, is there any leeway in power adjustment? My understanding (and how I'm being taught) is that you do NOT touch power once it is off. If you do, you've blown the maneuver. Similarly, for other landings, "stabilized" means you don't touch power, except for very minor changes. If you have to pull and push, you blew it.

That's been my standard, in "real flying." And if I felt that if I needed to make major changes in power on short final, I'd just go around! What's that cost in a single--$5?


Power Off 180 is just that, pull the power and leave it. Stabilized approach is not "one power setting". If you need to adjust the power to keep the approach stable to your target, you do it. Key is to notice the need early enough that you can make small adjustments.
 
With the landings, including power-off 180, is there any leeway in power adjustment? My understanding (and how I'm being taught) is that you do NOT touch power once it is off. If you do, you've blown the maneuver. Similarly, for other landings, "stabilized" means you don't touch power, except for very minor changes. If you have to pull and push, you blew it.

That's been my standard, in "real flying." And if I felt that if I needed to make major changes in power on short final, I'd just go around! What's that cost in a single--$5?


How much does a go around cost? If it adds .1 or .2 to the hobbs with rental rates, it could be $25
 
Once the power is removed you don't get to add any - if you do have to add power the manuver is blown and the DE may or may not let you try again.

Having just done the checkride - feel free to contact me directly with any questions you may have. A lot of instructors haven't done the commercial maneuvers in years.

The PTS is your friend with all of this. Know it well.
 
With the landings, including power-off 180, is there any leeway in power adjustment? My understanding (and how I'm being taught) is that you do NOT touch power once it is off. If you do, you've blown the maneuver. Similarly, for other landings, "stabilized" means you don't touch power, except for very minor changes. If you have to pull and push, you blew it.

That's been my standard, in "real flying." And if I felt that if I needed to make major changes in power on short final, I'd just go around! What's that cost in a single--$5?

For the power off, if you touch the power after pulling it, then it is indeed a blown maneuver. Obviously if you are going to come up short, then it is better to go around - best thing to do it if you find yourself in that situation is to let the DPE know early that you are not satisfied with the maneuver and are going to go around and do it again. Alot of DPEs are pretty understanding if you are able to recognize (and verbalize) what you did wrong and correct it and will often let you redo it. Whatever you do, don't allow yourself to land short - that is a definite bust.

With that said, hopefully your CFI has worked with the examiner before and can give you some insight on how to handle the less than perfect maneuvers with that one.
 
The folks above who said "once off, stays off" for the 180/power-off approach are correct.

However, in the "stabilized approach" for the other landings, there is no limit to how much power change is used as long as it's smooth and appropriate. Here's what the FAA has to say about it in the pamphlet "On Landings, Part I":
Should you need to increase your rate-of-descent, do so either by reducing power or by further extending flaps to increase drag. If you do extend flaps, remember that you've just modified your approach configuration and that adding power may be necessary to stay on the selected glide path at your targeted speed.

A fundamental key to flying a stabilized approach is the inter-relationship of pitch and power. At any targeted airspeed in any configuration, adding more power will make the glide path shallower; reducing power will make it steeper. This inter-relationship means that any changes to one element in the "approach equation" must be compensated for by adjustments in the other.

So, after a glide path has been selected, the means of staying on it and maintaining your targeted airspeed can only be achieved by adjusting pitch and power together.

Experienced pilots know the power settings and airspeeds for different landing weights, drag configurations and rates-of-descent for their airplanes. Then, these pilots need only make minor adjustments to pitch and power to maintain the selected glide path and airspeed.
The important (if not basic) point is neuer let your airspeed decay below the targeted airspeed for each segment of the approach and neuer let the airplane sink below its selected glide path.

In any event, never let yourself get behind the power curve while on long final!
And from the Airplane Flying Handbook:

After aligning the airplane with the runway centerline,
the final flap setting should be completed and the pitch
attitude adjusted as required for the desired rate of
descent. Slight adjustments in pitch and power may
be necessary to maintain the descent attitude and the
desired approach airspeed.


The descent angle should be controlled throughout the
approach so that the airplane will land in the center
of the first third of the runway. The descent angle is
affected by all four fundamental forces that act on an
airplane (lift, drag, thrust, and weight). If all the
forces are constant, the descent angle will be constant
in a no-wind condition. The pilot can control these
forces by adjusting the airspeed, attitude, power, and
drag (flaps or forward slip). The wind also plays a
prominent part in the gliding distance over the
ground [Figure 8-2]; naturally, the pilot does not have
control over the wind but may correct for its effect
on the airplane’s descent by appropriate pitch and

power adjustments.


The descent angle should be controlled throughout the
approach so that the airplane will land in the center
of the first third of the runway. The descent angle is
affected by all four fundamental forces that act on an
airplane (lift, drag, thrust, and weight). If all the
forces are constant, the descent angle will be constant
in a no-wind condition. The pilot can control these
forces by adjusting the airspeed, attitude, power, and
drag (flaps or forward slip). The wind also plays a
prominent part in the gliding distance over the
ground [Figure 8-2]; naturally, the pilot does not have
control over the wind but may correct for its effect
on the airplane’s descent by appropriate pitch and
power adjustments.

Considering the factors that affect the descent angle on
the final approach, for all practical purposes at a given
pitch attitude there is only one power setting for one
airspeed, one flap setting, and one wind condition.
A change in any one of these variables will require
an appropriate coordinated change in the other controllable
variables. For example, if the pitch attitude
is raised too high without an increase of power, the
airplane will settle very rapidly and touch down
short of the desired spot. For this reason, the pilot
should never try to stretch a glide by applying backelevator
pressure alone to reach the desired landing
spot. This will shorten the gliding distance if power is
not added simultaneously. The proper angle of descent
and airspeed should be maintained by coordinating

pitch attitude changes and power changes.

The objective of a good final approach is to descend at
an angle and airspeed that will permit the airplane to
reach the desired touchdown point at an airspeed
which will result in minimum floating just before
touchdown; in essence, a semi-stalled condition. To
accomplish this, it is essential that both the descent
angle and the airspeed be accurately controlled. Since
on a normal approach the power setting is not fixed as
in a power-off approach, the power and pitch attitude
should be adjusted simultaneously as necessary, to
control the airspeed, and the descent angle, or to attain
the desired altitudes along the approach path. By lowering
the nose and reducing power to keep approach
airspeed constant, a descent at a higher rate can be
made to correct for being too high in the approach.
This is one reason for performing approaches with partial
power; if the approach is too high, merely lower
the nose and reduce the power. When the approach is

too low, add power and raise the nose.
 
Once the power is removed you don't get to add any - if you do have to add power the manuver is blown and the DE may or may not let you try again.

Having just done the checkride - feel free to contact me directly with any questions you may have. A lot of instructors haven't done the commercial maneuvers in years.

The PTS is your friend with all of this. Know it well.

Thanks, Jessie!
 
The folks above who said "once off, stays off" for the 180/power-off approach are correct.

However, in the "stabilized approach" for the other landings, there is no limit to how much power change is used as long as it's smooth and appropriate. Here's what the FAA has to say about it in the pamphlet "On Landings, Part I":
And from the Airplane Flying Handbook:

Thanks for those references, Ron!
 
Here's a hint - when you pick your touchdown point - pick one some distance down the runway (the fixed distance markers on an instrument runway or the 3rd centerline stripe), declare that to be your target, and pull the power when you're abeam them. That gives you extra margin of paved surface if you come up short - it's much nicer to "stretch" the touchdown in ground effect with the runway surface below you than otherwise.

I always treat the manuever as an exercise in drag management - where the only "weapons" I have to alter the glidepath are increasing drag with flaps (in a retract airplane the gear is down before the manuever starts) or with a slip. I've only got one way to "reduce" drag, and that's to increase the propeller pitch towards coarse by pulling back on the prop control. I like to save that as the "just in case" hidden ace if I'm looking just slightly short on the checkride, but I practice without touching the prop and go around if I'm not gonna make it.
 
Also, I've waited to put any flaps in and if it looks like I need to "float" to the desired touchdown point then I can add 10 degress-20deg. flaps in ground effect and it floats nicely... but you have to be where you want to be w/out the flaps for that little bit to work.
 
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