And the hits just keep on coming... (engine probs)

[EvilEagle]

First off, thanks to all those who offered help on the tach issue. It was in fact a broken tach cable and we couldn't find the broken pieces, so off came the accessory drive.


I got a message from my wife relaying what the A&P told her - one of the retaining clips got into the cam housing and monkeyed with the gears, so he says we have to take the engine off, crack the case and send the gears off to get checked for damage.


I'm awaiting the "worst-case estimate" but I don't even know what ballpark we are talking here. $2k, $5k, $10k? Where do I draw the line on pouring money into this engine vs getting a 0 SMOH engine?

To compound matters, he's not sure when he has time to get to the rebuild, so I'm not even sure when it'll be back together. Any suggestions of places to send an O-320? 359 hrs SMOH.

This sucks...

 

[RotorAndWing]

Don George Aircraft Engines in Orlando. http://www.dongeorgeaircraft.com/

 

[Tom-D]

First off, thanks to all those who offered help on the tach issue. It was in fact a broken tach cable and we couldn't find the broken pieces, so off came the accessory drive.

First issue I have with this is, the broken piece of the tach cable can't get into the accessory drive case.


I got a message from my wife relaying what the A&P told her - one of the retaining clips got into the cam housing and monkeyed with the gears, so he says we have to take the engine off, crack the case and send the gears off to get checked for damage.

there are no retaining clips on the cable or drive mechanism. the cable is driven by a 3/8ths shaft that has a hole in the center with a keyway to drive the cable, the entire cable is held by this shaft, that shaft is driven by a slot in the cam gear there are no cable parts exposed to the gears.

The next issue is the cases do not require disassembling to remove and replace the gears. they all come out the back of the accessory case. oil pump and all.

I'm awaiting the "worst-case estimate" but I don't even know what ballpark we are talking here. $2k, $5k, $10k? Where do I draw the line on pouring money into this engine vs getting a 0 SMOH engine?

To compound matters, he's not sure when he has time to get to the rebuild, so I'm not even sure when it'll be back together. Any suggestions of places to send an O-320? 359 hrs SMOH.

This sucks...

BOHICA

Zepher engines Zepher hills Fl.

 

[Tom-D]

First off, thanks to all those who offered help on the tach issue. It was in fact a broken tach cable and we couldn't find the broken pieces, so off came the accessory drive.

IT must still be in the drive shaft, if in fact it was in the drive from day one at major overhaul.

see the pictures

 

[SCCutler]

Tom, you're a gem.

 

[gismo]

Zepher engines Zepher hills Fl.

Yep, Charlie produced my last engine and it was a good one.

 

[EvilEagle]

Thanks for all the info and pics. I got an email from him - does this shed any light? (There may have been some translation issues when it was going from A&P to wife to me).

"As I mentioned earlier today, the pin that holds the tach drive to the back of the came was found today in the oil sump. It shows signs of going through the gears. Due to the fact that the gears are hardened, it is very possible there has been damage to the teeth on the gears. There are two idler gears, a crank gear and the Cam gear. The issue is the Cam gear is of the late style which is manufactured as part of the camshaft, the only way to have the Cam gear tested is to remove the whole camshaft which means splitting the case. We can pull the engine this Friday and bring it to the shop. Monday we can remove the cam and ship it along with the gears for inspection, (The inspection could take as much as a two week turn-a-round. ) About two days to re-assemble the engine, a day to install the engine. This is about the best time-line we can give you. I do not know how much the gears will cost if they do not pass, but we have the option of purchasing serviceable units (yellow tagged) at about half price of new. "

 

[gismo]

Thanks for all the info and pics. I got an email from him - does this shed any light? (There may have been some translation issues when it was going from A&P to wife to me).

"As I mentioned earlier today, the pin that holds the tach drive to the back of the came was found today in the oil sump. It shows signs of going through the gears. Due to the fact that the gears are hardened, it is very possible there has been damage to the teeth on the gears. There are two idler gears, a crank gear and the Cam gear. The issue is the Cam gear is of the late style which is manufactured as part of the camshaft, the only way to have the Cam gear tested is to remove the whole camshaft which means splitting the case. We can pull the engine this Friday and bring it to the shop. Monday we can remove the cam and ship it along with the gears for inspection, (The inspection could take as much as a two week turn-a-round. ) About two days to re-assemble the engine, a day to install the engine. This is about the best time-line we can give you. I do not know how much the gears will cost if they do not pass, but we have the option of purchasing serviceable units (yellow tagged) at about half price of new. "

I'd think the only gears the bit of tach cable would have passed through would be the oil pump gears themselves and they're pretty easy to remove IIRC.

 

[Clark1961]

Thanks for all the info and pics. I got an email from him - does this shed any light? (There may have been some translation issues when it was going from A&P to wife to me).

"As I mentioned earlier today, the pin that holds the tach drive to the back of the came was found today in the oil sump. "

I'm assuming that "came" should be "case" and it sounds like a real problem. Of course other folks were thinking that the problems were external to the engine but actually you have incontrovertible evidence that the problem is inside the engine.

Sorry for the bad news and the problems with a relatively low time engine. Some days it just doesn't go the way we want.

If it's any comfort, you're not alone. I was hoping for a cheap annual since I'd done a lot of work on my aircraft in the last year. Instead I found cracks on the engine mount and it's going to be a 5 AMU, 6 week annual.

 

[charlie]

Thanks for all the info and pics. I got an email from him - does this shed any light? (There may have been some translation issues when it was going from A&P to wife to me).

"As I mentioned earlier today, the pin that holds the tach drive to the back of the came was found today in the oil sump. It shows signs of going through the gears. Due to the fact that the gears are hardened, it is very possible there has been damage to the teeth on the gears. There are two idler gears, a crank gear and the Cam gear. The issue is the Cam gear is of the late style which is manufactured as part of the camshaft, the only way to have the Cam gear tested is to remove the whole camshaft which means splitting the case. We can pull the engine this Friday and bring it to the shop. Monday we can remove the cam and ship it along with the gears for inspection, (The inspection could take as much as a two week turn-a-round. ) About two days to re-assemble the engine, a day to install the engine. This is about the best time-line we can give you. I do not know how much the gears will cost if they do not pass, but we have the option of purchasing serviceable units (yellow tagged) at about half price of new. "

The only inspection processes applicable to to the camshaft gear are visual, which can be done in place, and magnaflux which would require disassembly. Visual inspection will tell if the gear was damaged by the pin. If the teeth show no signs of any impact or abrasion I'd leave it alone. BTW ECI makes all the gears for that engine so they are available at reasonable prices. Charlie Melot Zephyr Aircraft Engines

 

[SCCutler]

Like you know anything, Charlie!

 

[jesse]

If it were me -- I'd listen very closely to Tom and Charlie.

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks for all the info and pics. I got an email from him - does this shed any light? (There may have been some translation issues when it was going from A&P to wife to me).

"As I mentioned earlier today, the pin that holds the tach drive to the back of the came was found today in the oil sump. It shows signs of going through the gears. Due to the fact that the gears are hardened, it is very possible there has been damage to the teeth on the gears. There are two idler gears, a crank gear and the Cam gear. The issue is the Cam gear is of the late style which is manufactured as part of the camshaft, the only way to have the Cam gear tested is to remove the whole camshaft which means splitting the case. We can pull the engine this Friday and bring it to the shop. Monday we can remove the cam and ship it along with the gears for inspection, (The inspection could take as much as a two week turn-a-round. ) About two days to re-assemble the engine, a day to install the engine. This is about the best time-line we can give you. I do not know how much the gears will cost if they do not pass, but we have the option of purchasing serviceable units (yellow tagged) at about half price of new. "

Now we are talking about a different issue (part) That pin is a pretty stout chunk of metal. If it really did show evidence of being run thru the gears, I would want the whole engine torn down and the cases inspected too, along with the case thru bolt set magnafluxed because they took all the stresses of holding the case together.

I don't see how the pin could get thru the gear mesh, with out doing a lot of damage, the gears would certainly show damage.

 

[AdamZ]

Zepher engines Zepher hills Fl.

Yup Charlie Melot at Zepher Hills has a great reputation!

 

[EvilEagle]

yep, taking the case apart - pulled it on Wed and dropped it off this morning at the mechanic. The gears didn't "look" bad, but we're going to have them checked.

I'll post the next bit of info. Thanks for all the words everyone!

 

[EvilEagle]

So the first guy who I took the Engine to had it for a month, wouldn't return my phone calls, and when he finally did - informed me that he couldn't do any work to my engine. Awesome...

So, Mapoles Aviation has it now and I was told today that they found a bunch of problems when they cracked the case. My wife went to look at it since I'm out of town. Basically it needs a complete overhaul - WTFO?! Buying used aircraft really REALLY hurts sometimes...

 

[Steve]

I feel your pain (really I do).

btw, I tried to contact Mapoles to do my condition inspection back in Dec, but no response. The plane is at TVR now getting more than an inspection now (see attached).

Good luck.

So the first guy who I took the Engine to had it for a month, wouldn't return my phone calls, and when he finally did - informed me that he couldn't do any work to my engine. Awesome...

So, Mapoles Aviation has it now and I was told today that they found a bunch of problems when they cracked the case. My wife went to look at it since I'm out of town. Basically it needs a complete overhaul - WTFO?! Buying used aircraft really REALLY hurts sometimes...

 

[EvilEagle]

I feel your pain (really I do).

btw, I tried to contact Mapoles to do my condition inspection back in Dec, but no response. The plane is at TVR now getting more than an inspection now (see attached).

Good luck.

I don't know why Chip didn't get in touch with you - he's always been good about getting back to me.

Wow, your plane is about as apart as mine - best of luck with it. Let me know when the next fly-in is and I'll meet you over there.

 

[SCCutler]

I feel your pain (really I do).

btw, I tried to contact Mapoles to do my condition inspection back in Dec, but no response. The plane is at TVR now getting more than an inspection now (see attached).

Good luck.

Steve, what's up with the IAR? Lots of preventative MX?

 

[Dr. O]

I was contemplating tearing down the Left engine this month and having everything gone through and hang new cylinders (the cylinders are in hand)... But, the engine is running fine and the compressions are acceptable... The real killer is the estimate of 8 weeks downtime (not in this life)...

We are spoze to be in a recession/depression/// The certified repair shops are spoze to be begging for work - instead they want to take the case, gears, etc. and my deposit money, and go on extended vacation in the Bahamas, apparently...

Well, not this year, not on my money, they won't...
If they would turn the parts around in 2 weeks they would be getting the business.. Otherwise they can read my lips...

denny-o

 

[Steve]

Yep. Condition inspection following engine overhaul, and I'm still in the "restoration" mode.

I've been wanting to replace the left main gear strut to correct the pre-existing slight downward deflection of the axle with an unused spare unit. The replacement is now on and looks much better. Oddly enough, about a third of the spare struts in the crates I have appear to have the same deflection. Maybe the factory specs are pretty loose...lol.

Also, while checking the nose wheel strut there was some excess "play" in the trunnion (horizontal piece) to shaft (vertical piece) joint that could only be repaired by replacement. Thought at first it was just the shimmy damper, but turned out to be the part the damper mounted to. So the nose wheel strut has been replaced also. Good to have a complete spare set of landing gear for a plane like this. The replacement struts still had the factory grease paper wrapped around the chrome sections.

The other major project was replacing all the o-rings and flexible hoses on the brake system. No existing leaks, but all the elastomers were reaching the end of recommended service life or beyond and a couple of the original hose fittings were just about gone due to rust. Brakes are not something you want to go without. Having the airframe opened up for the other work made it a convenient time to do the refurbishment. After much internet searching I found a supplier with the right sized adapters that allow me to install AN- hoses to metric connectors. Turns out the brake line fittings are "French metric" so it was a bit of a challenge. I could have done a more intensive re-fit and gone all AN- but finding the right adapters eliminated the need for a wholesale changeout. I'll be pressure testing the brake lines this week.

The last task will be to paint the wing skins that were replaced earlier. Unless there are any unforeseen show-stoppers from this point on it should be out the door by the end of next week. But I've been fooled before.

Don't mean to compete with EvilEagle's woes in this thread. "Experimental" is for educational and recreational purposes. I'm getting schooled in the Romanian art of airplane building, and it involves a lot of airplane part re-creatin'..lol.

I'll let you know when something comes up in your area, Evil. I want to swap rides when both planes are back in the air!

Steve, what's up with the IAR? Lots of preventative MX?

 

[vontresc]

I'm telling you Steve is going for that Grand Champion Warbird trophy at OSH this year

 

[Steve]

You have to have 3 airframes of a particular model getting judged at OSH to qualify for that. There just aren't that many owners crazy as I am to worry about it.

I'm telling you Steve is going for that Grand Champion Warbird trophy at OSH this year

 

[Henning]

So the first guy who I took the Engine to had it for a month, wouldn't return my phone calls, and when he finally did - informed me that he couldn't do any work to my engine. Awesome...

So, Mapoles Aviation has it now and I was told today that they found a bunch of problems when they cracked the case. My wife went to look at it since I'm out of town. Basically it needs a complete overhaul - WTFO?! Buying used aircraft really REALLY hurts sometimes...

I'd take it to Charlie Merlot at Zephyrhills.

 

[EvilEagle]

I'd take it to Charlie Merlot at Zephyrhills.

Z-hills is a 7 hour drive. Mapoles has it and has already started on the rebuild... 3 ish weeks and I should be back in the air (other than for work).

 

[EvilEagle]

I'll let you know when something comes up in your area, Evil. I want to swap rides when both planes are back in the air!

I've gotten through the first 14 hours of flying on the new engine - this weekend I did 82J - KMCB - KDTN - KTHA - 82J and all is well. I can tell the 10hp increase on the climbout, not so much on the cruise, but that's what I was wanting anyway.

How about you- back in the air yet?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Ya know, I read all this stuff about engine shops fleecing everyone (here and in other forums), and I'm eternally grateful that I opted for a field overhaul by my trusted A&P/IA back in '02. I was able to watch each piece as it came in (and was assembled), I was able to ask a brazillion questions at each stage of the game, and it was all done on time and on budget.

That engine -- an O-540-B4B45 -- is just past mid-time now, and recently passed annual with all compressions 77 or higher. After reading what y'all go through with these big shops, maybe you should consider having my guy up in Iowa City, Iowa do your overhauls? Sure, it's a bit of a flight, but you'll be back in the sky quicker, with less impact on your wallet in the long run.

 

[Steve]

I've gotten through the first 14 hours of flying on the new engine - this weekend I did 82J - KMCB - KDTN - KTHA - 82J and all is well. I can tell the 10hp increase on the climbout, not so much on the cruise, but that's what I was wanting anyway.

How about you- back in the air yet?

Yes, the "new" engine is running well. I'm up to just over 60 hrs on it now with no noticeable issues. Oil consumption is way down, less than 1 qt in 15hrs. Plan to switch to AD on the next change.

I spent the past weekend at VPS.

They were so happy to see me they put on a two day airshow just for me.

Stayed with a friend that has a Cub and a grass strip to go with it.
The other two house guests were former F-106 pilots. Made for some interesting after dinner conversation, to say the least.

Good to hear your's is back online. Drop me a line after you get back from SnF. Lot's of weekend activities in the area in the coming months.

 

[EvilEagle]

Yes, the "new" engine is running well. I'm up to just over 60 hrs on it now with no noticeable issues. Oil consumption is way down, less than 1 qt in 15hrs. Plan to switch to AD on the next change.

I spent the past weekend at VPS.

Glad to see you had a good time and are back in the air. Still makes me sad to see those sun-shades that DON'T have Eagles sitting under them anymore. Sad days...

 

[Ted]

Ya know, I read all this stuff about engine shops fleecing everyone (here and in other forums), and I'm eternally grateful that I opted for a field overhaul by my trusted A&P/IA back in '02. I was able to watch each piece as it came in (and was assembled), I was able to ask a brazillion questions at each stage of the game, and it was all done on time and on budget.

That engine -- an O-540-B4B45 -- is just past mid-time now, and recently passed annual with all compressions 77 or higher. After reading what y'all go through with these big shops, maybe you should consider having my guy up in Iowa City, Iowa do your overhauls? Sure, it's a bit of a flight, but you'll be back in the sky quicker, with less impact on your wallet in the long run.

I think it tends to come down to good mechanic/shop vs. not. All a matter of finding the right one. I've got a few shops that I won't go to again (or that I'll go to but only for certain things. Engine overhauls are a big deal. In your case, though, if you're at just over mid-time after 8 years, your engine clearly gets a good sum of use compared to a number of folks. That's a big help in having a healthy engine that will live a long, happy life. These things like being used.

Also comes down to what your time schedule is and whether you want your specific engines back vs. having minimum downtime. In my case, when it comes time to do overhauls I'm going to want to minimize downtime, so I'm going to want to do an exchange deal rather than get my engines back. Of course, I don't think my specific engines are anything special, so that does have an impact.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Also comes down to what your time schedule is and whether you want your specific engines back vs. having minimum downtime. In my case, when it comes time to do overhauls I'm going to want to minimize downtime, so I'm going to want to do an exchange deal rather than get my engines back. Of course, I don't think my specific engines are anything special, so that does have an impact.

An engine exchange is great, probably the best solution overall, but (for whatever reason) it was extremely expensive compared to a field overhaul, back in '02.

I've never understood why an engine swap would be more expensive than a field overhaul. You'd think one of the larger shops could develop a process (and a following) that would allow them to pull you in, remove the old engine, hang a "new" one, and have you on your way in a day or three. The economies of scale and near-production-line efficiencies *should* save considerable money. Yet, in practice, the big shops are hugely more expensive than the small shops.

I understand they have more overhead than my local guy, but rebuilding 1940s-era engines ain't rocket science. I watched mine built from the crank on up, and there was nothing fancy to it. It seems like if you did ten of them, you should be able to charge less than if you did two of them -- but that doesn't seem to be the case with aircraft engines.

 

[Steve]

I think they're making room for the F-35s (and the Marines).

I did see a few Strike Eagles in the nearby mx hangar. I had a chance to visit with Mike Guidry, an Eagle test guy, while I was there, too.

Glad to see you had a good time and are back in the air. Still makes me sad to see those sun-shades that DON'T have Eagles sitting under them anymore. Sad days...

 

[Ted]

An engine exchange is great, probably the best solution overall, but (for whatever reason) it was extremely expensive compared to a field overhaul, back in '02.

I've never understood why an engine swap would be more expensive than a field overhaul. You'd think one of the larger shops could develop a process (and a following) that would allow them to pull you in, remove the old engine, hang a "new" one, and have you on your way in a day or three. The economies of scale and near-production-line efficiencies *should* save considerable money. Yet, in practice, the big shops are hugely more expensive than the small shops.

It depends on where you go and who you talk to, and a lot of it depends on what gets replaced. There's a lot of variance there. I think cylinders is a big one there. Did the cylinders get overhauled or replaced with new? Your field overhaul was probably cheap in part because you started off with an engine that didn't require as many replacement parts, and would have gotten higher had more things been replaced. For an exchange program, the shop has to keep enough spare eninges around to send one to you while waiting for yours to return (this gets hard to do with the large variance in engine models), things like that. The exchange shop also has to assume a certain amount of problems with your engine to ensure they don't come back at a loss when they overhaul yours for someone else.

From what I've seen, field overhauls have a wide variance. A lot of shops do a great job of them. There are also some shops that don't. I can see a small shop doesn't have to charge as much and can do good work just fine, but then if you bring in an engine that has a number of unknown gremlins, I can also see your prices very quickly skyrocketing.

 

[EvilEagle]

I think they're making room for the F-35s (and the Marines).

I did see a few Strike Eagles in the nearby mx hangar. I had a chance to visit with Mike Guidry, an Eagle test guy, while I was there, too.

Yep they are, but the F-35 just got slipped another 2 years. They still have the test guys there - the 85FTS and the 28FTS - they have all the fighters F-15C/D/E, F-16, A-10.

Marines, Navy, USAF and foreign dudes will all be at Eglin eventually.

Having said all that, I stand by my previous statement - Sad days... Especially trying to replace the Eagle with F-35s.

 

[Bob Noel]

Ya know, I read all this stuff about engine shops fleecing everyone (here and in other forums), and I'm eternally grateful that I opted for a field overhaul by my trusted A&P/IA back in '02. I was able to watch each piece as it came in (and was assembled), I was able to ask a brazillion questions at each stage of the game, and it was all done on time and on budget.

That engine -- an O-540-B4B45 -- is just past mid-time now, and recently passed annual with all compressions 77 or higher. After reading what y'all go through with these big shops, maybe you should consider having my guy up in Iowa City, Iowa do your overhauls? Sure, it's a bit of a flight, but you'll be back in the sky quicker, with less impact on your wallet in the long run.

I am perfectly happy with the work that Penn Yan did when I had
my O-320 overhauled to new specs back in 2002. The mechanics
I used were happy and impressed with the components used
(e.g., new ignition wires, new Slick mags) and the completeness
of the kit for installing it in the airplane again. They even threw
in a new ring gear since I took of the air conditioning equipment.

A friend used Mattituck for an exchange for his O-360 around 1999.
He has one sweet Cherokee 180.

 

[Jay Honeck]

It depends on where you go and who you talk to, and a lot of it depends on what gets replaced. There's a lot of variance there. I think cylinders is a big one there. Did the cylinders get overhauled or replaced with new?

There is little reason nowadays to not go with all new cylinders, and we did. The difference in price (in '02) was not significant.

 

[Ted]

There is little reason nowadays to not go with all new cylinders, and we did. The difference in price (in '02) was not significant.

I would agree, but I've also seen overhaul shops advertising use of "seasoned" cylinders.

 

[N801BH]

I would agree, but I've also seen overhaul shops advertising use of "seasoned" cylinders.

Seasoned cylinders =

1- cracks in the exhaust ports and spark plug holes.. Done for "stress relieving.

2-Distorted and pitted exhaust mating surface...........
Left unresurfaced so you can caliberate you CO monitor.

3- Loose valve seats.....
For those funny, impossible to get a handle on misfires..

4- Worn out Heli Coils in the spark plug holes.......
Left that way to **** you off during a plug change..

And finally #5

5- They could not find an airboat owner dumb enough to buy them.


Ben ( been there, done that) Haas

 

[Ted]

Ben, I would agree with your assessment.

 

[EdFred]

Oil consumption is way down, less than 1 qt in 15hrs.

Dear Steve,

You suck.

All the best,

Ed

(I'm at 1per 6-8)