American Workers [NA]

[RobertGerace]

I can't wait until five to ten years from now when your business model starts fizzling.

I don't think I've attacked anyone here personally, and I know for sure that I have not wished misfortune on anyone. And from a POA manager nonetheless...

 

[RobertGerace]

Why would employee health be an issue of a boss with this attitude? A sick employee isn't putting money in his pocket... just dump 'em and plug another drone in.

Joe, you and I countinue to agree.

I am not running a charity. I am running a for-profit business and am responsible to my shareholders.

I'm glad you agree. Because if you didn't, we would have to get into the whole Socialist vs. Communist vs. Capitalist argument...and that argument has already been settled here in America.

 

[MSmith]

If we take the extra hours that we whittle away and use them in a productive fashion, there is no end to how productive we could be.

So now people have to improve productivity in their personal lives, to give the gains to YOU?

Seems to be an out-of-line demand to me.

 

[MSmith]

I'm glad you agree. Because if you didn't, we would have to get into the whole Socialist vs. Communist vs. Capitalist argument...and that argument has already been settled here in America.

There's Capitalist, and then there's another concept called "slave labor". You're getting awfully close to the latter.

 

[Brian Austin]

I don't think I've attacked anyone here personally, and I know for sure that I have not wished misfortune on anyone. And from a POA manager nonetheless...

You've lumped us together and called us lazy for not wanting to work 60+ hour weeks. You've criticized those of us who don't feel a need for financial fortunes over personal life. I took it personally as did several others. You even apologized in one post and brought it back up again in a subsequent post.

This whole thread was started when you migrated a post from a different topic (a worthy move, thank you). If it had been dropped, none of the criticism you're seeing directed at you would have taken place. Hate to say this but you brought this on yourself as far as I'm concerned.

 

[grattonja]

Looks like I've got a lot of typing to do today.

Who says extra work hours have to come out of 'family' time? Or for that matter, who says anyone's personal life has to suffer?

I'd venture to guess that every one of us spends countless hours being inefficent (two trips to the store because of lack of planning)...that could be used for personal and/or work time.

I'd venture to guess that most of us spends countless hours doing ______ (insert anything from crossword puzzles to even (gulp) flying. I've never really understood card games, board games, and crossword puzzles...but I do understand flying.

If we take the extra hours that we whittle away and use them in a productive fashion, there is no end to how productive we could be. Here's an idea! How about combining flying with some type of business, or (even if it take 3 years to find)...how about finding a job where you can fly on your day-job!??? Then, you (not you 'Bill'...you (anyone who disagrees with me)...can take back every Saturday you spend away from your kids flying...work harder...and still get to fly. (yeah; I know, some will say, "I already fly with my kids."; to which I say, *every* Saturday?; and if the answer to that question is yes, I think that's awesome...but I'd venture to guess the exception not the rule.

The other thing is, how much sleep does the human body really need? I've been going on six hours per night for 15 years. Occasionally on a weekend I might sleep 10...but usually six; and I feel fine.

So I want to say that I never said people should trade their family time specifically.

Also, I never said "You" (not you, "Bill"..."You" whoever disagrees with my attitude) had to work these hours. Anyone who can afford to fly on a regular basis obviously has something good going for them, and if "You" (whoever) can do that on 2 hours per week...Bully for you!!! (I just won't hire "You"...but that's fine..."You" would not work for me either...and the world still works. Imagine that..."

Sorry to continue this thread. Sort of like the train wreck that I can't put down. School and kid events simply don't just "happen on Saturdays". Yesterday, I HAD to be out the door at 5 pm. I had a parent orientation at 6 pm, and the kid had to be picked up from camp, where she is spending the summer because both mom and I work, dropped at a sitter and then I had to get my hind end to school. And I was late, because I got out of here late, because there was a big dust up between the boss and a new attorney about a decision that the new attorney made. Based on my recommendation among the recommendations of others. It had to be ironed out. Frankly, it should have been ironed out at much greater length than it was. I couldn't stay for the two hour meeting that was really needed and the 20 minute version had to suffice.

Wednesday, I had a doc appointment for my daughter at 8:15 am. Late for work. We have a good pediatrician, a group that we trust that we don't want to give up. Their hours do not include much "after 5pm" time. My personal physician is the same way. Moreover, with borderline high blood pressure, I don't like to go visit them at 8 pm. My BP tends to be higher and I really don't want to lose my medical in October because my personal care physician somehow says my BP isn't well controlled.

I have two days in August now, where I will have to be at school for my daughter's kindergarden orientation. My wife probably won't be able to go at all, because she just started a new job and is commuting 1 hour each way. It was what there was, it was a good opportunity, and the commute is a hassle that the whole family must deal with. So I will have to take two days off, solely so that I can go to the parent orientation one day and be with my daughter both afternoons. I guarantee we are going to fly somewhere, and I am not going to feel guilty about the work that piles up on my desk in the meantime.

Yes, sometimes long hour weeks, sometimes even standard hour weeks, do adversely affect the family. Sometimes things have to be done during business hours. Maybe these foreign workers that you are hiring don't have their families here, so they can work long days. But, for many of us, maintaining balance between family and work means that work sometimes takes a second seat to family.

Then, sometimes, when I am in a homicide trial and my work life is manic, family takes a second seat and my hours are all eaten up with the job. And that is how it has to be then too.

You have a balance in your life that tips the scales one way. I have a balance that tips the scales much of the time somewhat the other way. I don't make the kind of money that you are describing. Maybe that is part of the deal. But. I don't think it means I am lazy. I think it means that I want to have a life and a career.

Jim G

 

[Greebo]

Folks:

Lets just try to keep things a little calmer eh? Robert has made a few statements that can be interpreted as being broadly applied to everyone here - but has also clarified that his statements aren't intended as such in several places.

So lets not use his particular method of running his business as justification for making personal attacks, ok? If you don't agree with his methods, then keep the discussion focused on the methods, not the person implementing them.

And Bob - you'ld do well to be a little more careful about how you phrase things so as to not be quite so easily misinterpreted. Brian has a point about having brought the heat on yourself.

Lets remember we're all pilots - we all have common interests - and lets all treat each other with the mutual respect we deserve.

(Lest the senior administrator cometh and bringeth forth the smackdown.)

 

[astanley]

OK Bob, now your post above is starting to scare me.

how much sleep do you need - 8 hours. and I'm cranky on 7.

anyone who is doing less might think they are doing ok, might be "used" to it - but you're getting into sleep debt here.

still sounds like you want it all - there are only 168 hours in the week. something is going to suffer - there is no free lunch. it comes down to priorities (which one is going to get shorted?)

First off, there are studies that sit on both sides of the sleep argument - some say too much is bad, some say to little is bad.

I generally get about 5 hours of sleep a night, hitting the rack about midnight or 1, up at 5/6. This fluctuates, some nights I get 8 (usually just after I have landed back from a trip, since my flight will get in late on a Friday), some nights I get 2. My blackberry may fire off at 3:00AM, and I'll wake up, respond, and go back to sleep.

I have a lot of energy, but I link that to the increasing amount of mountain biking I do (get up early, or do it after work). 10 miles a day really helps.

I have to cancel on a lot of social engagements. I'm not always the most reliable to make a dinner date with friends. But I prioritize - if my friend Asa is in Boston, and I haven't seen him in a dogs age, I'll be sure to be there. If Jessie has a doctor's appointment, I'll be there. If my buddies want to go out and have some brews - sorry, I may have to cancel.

A great example - I spent lunch at the City Year - Rhode Island benefit, for work. Now, I'm under a massive deadline (which I extracated myself from last night), but going to this luncheon was important for our company. I worked through lunch (blackberry), made sure people were on task, enjoyed a light salad, but got out and relaxed a little bit. Listened to the stories of impassioned people who dedicate every bone in their body to what they do - something I sure as heck can relate to. So while I was working most of lunch, I was still out in a different environment.

With the technology I posess at work, I can work from anywhere - and I do. Some days, I may spend 3 hours at home, sitting on the deck, working, coming in and out of the house and saying hello to Jessie, give her a kiss, head back outside. We may go up to her aunt and uncle's B&B and Spa, I'll sit in the formal living room, do some work, go in the kitchen, crack a bottle of vino, grab some cheese and crackers, go back out, turn on some Bach and continue working. And you know what? I feel great. I've worked on the beach in Maine, from a picnic table at the airport, sitting under a tree in a beautiful park, or sitting in the beautiful surroundings of the spa. Yes, I may be working, but I take the surroundings as such a big part of it. And you know what? I like that.

I also bet Bob takes one or two VACATIONS a year. As in, life off, emergency contacts only, and then goes and plays hard for 2 days or a week. When I commit to being on a true vacation (like my yearly trip to Tremblant, or going up to Bar Harbor), I fill every moment with the activities I can't do when I'm busy with work. Hiking, boating, cooking, clearing land, helping Henry build the porch on the house, anything. My leisure involves WORK. Sitting around drives me absolutely bonkers.


Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[bbchien]

Then, sometimes, when I am in a homicide trial and my work life is manic, family takes a second seat and my hours are all eaten up with the job. And that is how it has to be then too.

You have a balance in your life that tips the scales one way. I have a balance that tips the scales much of the time somewhat the other way. Jim G

The problem is, life expands to fill all available time. The American way of life has accelerated as we try to remain competitive and maintain our standard of living.

Getting to see my teenaged girls (then 11 and 13) was why I quit my mega-group practice for something more controllable.

And I would suggest that Robert's view has evolved over the years- from the time when his operation was a personally managed small firm with just a handful of critical personnel to a large firm in which he mostly serves as the "business finder".

Several adjacent offices have asked me if I would do their billing for them. I thought about it. I said, "no, but thanks". That would require much staff expansion and an increasing proportion of my energies to go into personnel maanagement. Finding the right talent to deal with that is very, very rare and very expensive in modern times. It is really why Jack Welch was successful. If you read his book, you'll see that his real talent was managing personnel. He doesn't know much about turbines, electronics, military systems, mines, wells, power generation, etc.

 

[corjulo]

There's Capitalist, and then there's another concept called "slave labor". You're getting awfully close to the latter.

Amen

And there is more the one kinds of capitalism. Laissez-faire, regulated, well regulated, over regulated, plutocracy driven, oligarchy driven and on and on.

You do have a responsibility to your stock holders. One of those it to maintain good labor relations

 

[corjulo]

The problem is, life expands to fill all available time. The American way of life has accelerated as we try to remain competitive and maintain our standard of living.

Getting to see my teenaged girls (then 11 and 13) was why I quit my mega-group practice for something more controllable.

And I would suggest that Robert's view has evolved over the years- from the time when his operation was a personally managed small firm with just a handful of critical personnel to a large firm in which he mostly serves as the "business finder".

Several adjacent offices have asked me if I would do their billing for them. I thought about it. I said, "no, but thanks". That would require much staff expansion and an increasing proportion of my energies to go into personnel maanagement. Finding the right talent to deal with that is very, very rare and very expensive in modern times. It is really why Jack Welch was successful. If you read his book, you'll see that his real talent was managing personnel. He doesn't know much about turbines, electronics, military systems, mines, wells, power generation, etc.

I loved Jack's book. Thats why I was so surprised over the scandal. I guess love is the one business condition he just didn't anticipate

 

[RobertGerace]

Whether Robert realizes it or not, he's still lumping "American workers" into the lazy category, simply because some of us have chosen personal lives over financial servitude. That's kind of sad, really, since the whole idea of America seemed to be each person making his/her own success based on their own criteria instead of someone else's.

But maybe I've got it wrong...

As a whole, yes, I am lumping American Workers into the lazy category. I am an employer and have hired and fired hundreds and hundreds of people over 13 years. This is my perspective from my experience.

Did I ever say EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE AMERICAN WORKERS is lazy? No, I did not. Did I ever say that Brian Austin is lazy? No, I did not.

Can Brian make one lucky real estate deal and end up owning an apartment complex free and clear and spend the rest of his life providing affordable housing to people and play 20 hours per day and still be a contributing member of society? Heck yes. If he wanted to work at my company with that attitude could he? Nope. But he most likely would not want to... But who cares?

 

[SJP]

Ain't gonna be rich. But not gonna be poor or working 80 hours per week until I die, either. Hopefully anyway.

Jim G

Likewise.

My father worked 60+ hrs a week after he left the police force. Died at 54, 2 weeks after selling his business. My step-mother got most of the proceeds, I won't see a penny.

I'll be 35 in November, and I'm one of those lazy foreigners-with-green-cards. We're almost completely debt free, We have a healthy amount in the bank, waiting for the kids to move out so we can sell up and buy a nice, smaller place just for us (the wife and I). We intend to buy it outright, no mortgage payments thank-you. Once they move out, we'll move in, consolidate, pump the pension plans / investments for a few years, then call it a day.

Won't be rich - but won't be wanting either.

 

[RobertGerace]

Bob,

I'm not clear on an important detail here, and please say so if I'm interpretting this incorrectly. It sounds (just based on what I'm reading) that you pretty much are expecting ~150% performance (or at least something above 125%) for 125% pay. I followed your reasoning for taking your fair cut, and on the surface it makes sense.

While this arrangement may appear to work in the short term, I think you could well be setting yourself up for a mass-exodus at some undetermined point in the future. I work in the engineering-consulting business, and this kind of spin-off company happens all the time in my industry. A group of solid employees, who over the years have built up their own client relationships independent of their management, decides there are better opportunities to be had by striking out on their own. The departing employees not only take out the meat of your workforce, but over the next year, you'll see quite a few of your clients follow them. They can take your clients because all the client sees is 1) the same employee doing the work, and 2) often a lower bill, because at least in the short term, the new company will do what it has to win the client, and will still make good money because you will no longer be getting your cut. What you'll be left with is your H-1 employees, who are basically legally tied to you, but even that isn't a guarantee, because there is talk in Washington about possibly changing H-1's so they're not as tightly tied to a specific employer.

Do you have a large percentage of employees who just work a good, reliable 40, get paid a fair salary for their 40, and are satisfied that they have a good life outside work? Or, are the majority of your employees 60-hour types who are real go-getters? These go-getters are the ones you need to be worried about, because even though you think they won't bail on you, if they do, you are much, much worse off than when Mr. 40 goes looking for a change of scenery, 'cause they'll take your clients.

Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for the heads up. The barrier to entry is enormous. I don't think its an issue.

 

[RobertGerace]

Are there any large corporations that respect their workers, and therefore who's workers respect their bosses? I doubt it. American bosses are too eager to send jobs overseas, or staff them with immigrants who's work visas make them essentially well paid slaves. American workers, unwilling to tolerate such people, despise those same bosses, work is a battlefield of mutual disgust, and now many of us seek out foreign goods, such as my Hyundai and Toyota cars, instead of American goods made by foreigners, benefitting only a few rich American bosses.

Joe,

Again, we agree.

BTW, I'm not rich. I work for my company and my company doesn't have many assets. 90% of every dollar that comes in goes back into the company. The 10% profit fuels growth...building something, I hope, for the future.

 

[DeeG]

You know... I've finally heard from an employer that causes me to understand the justification for unions.

It's the employer's money. They can run their business any way they want. But when they expect slave hours from their workers, and expect them to forsake even their families, they certainly don't deserve respect, not even the minimal respect of a notice.

Admin here at Rivercom has always had an 'open door' policy. Got a problem? Talk to the director. And since I'm prohibited from talking about work to the general public (we can only say wonderful glowing things about the place), I'll just say that us line dispatchers have just organized a Guild.

When we consolidated the comm centers, we were on probation for a year. That year will be up July 1st. And since I'm one of the more 'vocal' dispatchers here, (meaning I'm the only one that has the ovaries to go to the director and loudly say "THIS IS B.S.") we'll see if I still have a job come July 1st. And it's not really an issue with Admin, it's just we have a couple of supervisors that couldn't supervise their way out of a paper sack if they had a flashlight and detailed written directions. oh geeezz......I didn't just say that, did I????

 

[grattonja]

Likewise.

My father worked 60+ hrs a week after he left the police force. Died at 54, 2 weeks after selling his business. My step-mother got most of the proceeds, I won't see a penny.

I'll be 35 in November, and I'm one of those lazy foreigners-with-green-cards. We're almost completely debt free, We have a healthy amount in the bank, waiting for the kids to move out so we can sell up and buy a nice, smaller place just for us (the wife and I). We intend to buy it outright, no mortgage payments thank-you. Once they move out, we'll move in, consolidate, pump the pension plans / investments for a few years, then call it a day.

Won't be rich - but won't be wanting either.

You and I are definitely on the same page. We owe on one car right now and the mortgage. Paid the student loans off years ago and my wife gets faint under any circumstance where a credit card can't be paid off. Hasn't happened for 15 years. We have a mortgage that will be paid off about the same time my daughter goes to college (hopefully). Then we owe diddly to anyone and will have retirement and college funded. May inherit a bit but would rather have grandparents around forever than the $, so not counting any pennies there.

Some day, I am going to take my suit off. And I am never going to put it on again. I hope to be one of those CFIs that does that job because they love it, and can afford to love it. I want to do Angelflight, and Young Eagles, and maybe just be able to look at some student at the airport on a sunny day and say, "Hey, wanna ride?"

My dad loves his work. I don't fault him for it. But he doesn't fish or hunt anymore. Both of which he loves. And he doesn't do much with his tractor on the property, which he loves. He has me gone and long since paid off but never goes anywhere or does anything anymore but work.

His choice will not be my choice. And, again, I don't think that makes me lazy. I want my daughter to remember me for taking her up in the plane, for going cool places in vacation, for being there for her.

I want enough money to retire and live that way. In the meantime, my mustang is just fine. I don't need a Cadillac or Mercedes.

Jim G

 

[RobertGerace]

Me bad American. Me come and go from work as I please. Sometime work way less than 40 hours per week. Sometime work way more. Me disrespectful of authority on regular basis. Me wear sneakers and blue jeans. Me sometime go fly airplane in middle of day just for fun. Me surf a lot to blow off steam.

On the other hand: I deliver consistent, reliable, creative, on-time, on-budget results of a quality level that withstands the test of time. I also rise to the challenge and have shipped product worth many, many, many millions of dollars. For that, I command salary well into the 6 figures and goodies on top of that. See, I've got a track record of solid results going back two decades now. Someone must like me, judging by the remuneration I've received and that I've been on this particular job for 7 years now. (unusual in the tech biz).

It takes more than long hours. Sometimes it takes short hours. But then again, I'm always thinking about work even when I'm not.

I've seen wonderful programming talent from India and Asia. I've also seen numerous projects that got completely derailed by outsourcing and even in-sourcing where everyone was killing themselves on stupid work schedules. I've shipped enough software to know that it is not how many hours you work that determine success or failure or even cost effectiveness. It's the end, the goal post and whether you hit it or not that determine failure or success.

I've scared more than one project manager by not coding until the very end. My usual practice is to design up front and spend 75% of the time in design, 10% coding and the rest in testing and bug fixing. I've never slipped a schedule from my timeline either. I have though, delivered some disappointing schedules up front, or sent back things to management that were so poorly scoped as to be unschedulable. I even once consulted a job, told them the problem was an NP-Complete situation and offered alternatives. Got turned down, they hired a line of consultants after me and never shipped a single thing before they ran out of money.

Larry,

This is a timeless argument. Is a programmer a scientist or an artist? Most people would say both.

An employer is looking for results to be sure. I'd be more tolerant of an absent employee who delivers than a present programmer who is late.

However, neither of the above is the 'ultimate' employee. The 'ultimate' employee is there on a dependable schedule. Maybe he's playing ping-pong, or maybe walking the campus...but if an issue comes up and I need his super-powerful-brain to draw pictures and explain it to me...he can't do that from a cell phone...or from 6,000 feet.

There are some exceptional people (and I believe you are one of them) who are so gifted at software development that the 'bad employee' syndrome is tolerated (think Magnum on Top Gun). But rest assured, it is tolerated...not loved...by anybody who writes you a check.

 

[astanley]

60 hours a week well into ones 40's sounds like, well, a recipe for a miserable family life. If you have a spouse and kids then putting that much time into work borders on neglect. I did it when I was 30. I won't do it now. Go ahead an fire me. Also, I find that the 60 hours a week crowd tend to exaggerate a bit. That or they need to work that much to pay for their failed marriages..... Attack...Now

I certainly make exception for the working class folks that have no choice. Cops, Fireman and teachers come to mind

My average for the last three months of billed time is 58 hours a week. One week was 40 hours of vacation, which skewed the results. Highest week was 98 hours, but that is in the office times.

If you count the 10 second email in the grocery store, the 20 minute phone call while running to the mall, the 3:00AM emails, it is well beyond that.

My fiancee and I have worked very hard to structure our relationship accordingly. Sometimes, it's really hard, but I just work harder out our relationship to show her what is first. Little things add up and matter. That 3 hours on the deck? Amazing. Coming home for lunch occasionally? Even better. Taking her out to the ballet, on tickets I got through a connection? Great. Yes, sometimes things are hard. But I'm willing to work for it.

Will we have kids? We're not sure. She is preparing to go get her Ph.D. in Anthropology. She is just as driven as I am. Yet, we both want kids. We have to reconcile that.

It also bears mentioning that I am very young - in my mid 20's - and that does drive some of my commitment. I don't own a house (refuse to purchase in this overheated RE market in Boston), and instead of dogs I have cats. I can see how things are different for people who make different life choices - however, those people probably will not be working in groups I work in. C'est la vie.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[SJP]

His choice will not be my choice. And, again, I don't think that makes me lazy. I want my daughter to remember me for taking her up in the plane, for going cool places in vacation, for being there for her.

I want enough money to retire and live that way. In the meantime, my mustang is just fine. I don't need a Cadillac or Mercedes.

Jim G

Amen

 

[gibbons]

Some day, I am going to take my suit off. And I am never going to put it on again.
Jim G

Oh Jim, never say never. I told my wife when we sold the business six years ago that I'd never wear a tie again. Several funerals, an invitation to the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, and most recently a chance to fly right seat in a Piaggio have made me a liar. Nope. Never say never no matter how much you mean it at the time

 

[RobertGerace]

We all have ourselves to blame - if you want to spread blame (I don't) - for participating in the market and fueling such unrealistic expectations. American IT workers have been resistant to quality methodologies for years - seeing them as way to control their individualism (in some cases, yes, in many, no), and it has finally bit them in the ass. Other markets (India especially) have lead the way in the adoption and execution of work guided by quality and process oriented methodologies, and repeatable, quality work is cheaper in the long run.

There are a lot of costs assosciated with offshoring, it's just not salary to salary - telecommunications, training, process adoption, process reengineering, separation of critical processes from the company, that doesn't always deliver the savings people expect. But in the end, they get a workforce that is far more dedicated to process oriented thought, and that delivers a lot to any corporation. And even if they save very little (compared to the difficulty and pain they have to endure to be successful), they get a lot of gains back in the end.

I think the American worker needs to stop fearing offshoring and learn why it is so successful. I think they need to stop resenting it and realize how they can change to re-level the playing field. But that's not going to happen, because I do fundementally believe that the majority of our workforce (and our universities for that matter) will not accept process and quality oriented thought.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Here Here!

Does anyone think for one second that I would not fill my offices with American workers if I could find enough with work ethics even close to foreign workers? If they do they are wrong.

I don't hire foreign workers to save money on paychecks...everyone is paid based on standard payscales for their job.

 

[Bill]

Is it so terrible to say, "Here is a place where you, a ______ professonal who's average salary in this area is X, can earn X + 25%, spot-bonuses, extra weeks of vacation, fast promotions, and maybe, if you really bust-your-butt, a piece of the action?

I don't know why some are busting on Bob here, I like the way he is doing business. Poor work, here's the door! Achieve, and there is a documented demonstrated plan for rewards and advancement.

Late 2001, our company was bought by new owners. One of the owners (my boss) told me, "Work with me, we'll have fun, you'll get a piece of the action, and we'll both make big money." So, I worked 60-80 hour work weeks, week in, week out. He'd call at 8:30pm while I was playing with my daughter, and I'd take the call and discuss whatever, because hey, I'm going to make "big money."

Fast forward two years, and we come back the Monday after Christmas to find the doors chained and the lights out. I call my boss, "Oh yeah, we decided we didn't want to be in that business anymore. Your last paycheck is Friday, your health ins ends at the end of the month. Good working with ya, have a nice life."

The end.

We now have new owners, and although more stable, they also do not have a documented rewards and advancement plan. Do I bust my butt now? What do you think? My wife and daughter deserve my time much more than some multi-millionare windbag who will toss me aside when he is done.

I'd jump at the chance to work for a guy like Bob, however, who really rewards his high achievers. Give me a documented demonstrated plan for reward and advancement, and I'll kick a$$ and take names.

Give me lip service, and you get a job.

 

[RobertGerace]

Based on Chucks comments, I'd like to close my participation in this thread.

First, I want to thank Andrew for his support. We see mostly eye-to-eye on this and I appreciate his saying so. Thanks to Bill as well.

Second, I want to say that anyone who has earned a pilot's certificate is not lazy. It's aint easy, and anyone who has done it has earned my respect already.

Third, I want to say that not knowing anyone here personally, except Bruce -- who is NOT lazy, I could not know if they were lazy or not.

Finally, I have a 2:30pm interview today. My WAN team needs another Network Administrator. The man coming for an interview is Apple-Pie-American. He is being hired word-of-mouth (where the best jobs come from) as a known quantity, hardworking expert.

I hope that convinces people that I don't think ALL Americans (and therefore if you are reading this and think YOU have been lumped in that category) are lazy.

I've always hated NA threads. I much prefer to talk about aviation with like-minded people. I sincerely apologize to anyone offended by my comments.

Can we talk about flying now?

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Very interesting. Sounds like a lot of the really good programmers and software engineers I know. Love to know what kind of software you write.

You are running it everyday.

So are many of you on this board.

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Larry,
This is a timeless argument. Is a programmer a scientist or an artist? Most people would say both.

An employer is looking for results to be sure. I'd be more tolerant of an absent employee who delivers than a present programmer who is late.

However, neither of the above is the 'ultimate' employee. The 'ultimate' employee is there on a dependable schedule. Maybe he's playing ping-pong, or maybe walking the campus...but if an issue comes up and I need his super-powerful-brain to draw pictures and explain it to me...he can't do that from a cell phone...or from 6,000 feet.

I ship.

'nuff said.

I have a cell phone and I've been called at all hours day and night, like when a factory in Taiwan goes line down and they need help, right now. It's part of the deal, and it is a two way street. When there's nothing particularly important going on, I don't have to be there.

That's why I can sit here at home, where I do my writing in a quiet environment in the mornings and go to the office in the afternoon. I just don't like working mornings. I've got VPN and a 8mb/s symmetric internet feed to the house. So I'm virtually there even now. That and that damnable cellphone.

That being said, I have more than 240 hours of vacation time that I wish I could use.

 

[bbchien]

Time to close the thread. Brian has recused himself from moderatorship for this string.