Altitude & Driving

[ron22]

We are visiting CO with another couple.
As we drove up to Mount Evens 14000 we started talking about the supplemental oxygen requirement for pilots.

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;
(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

They asked the question I can not answer. Why is it OK to drive then?
I said because the Road we are on is safer then flying

 

[ClimbnSink]

Because AAA has enough lobbying power to stop oxygen requirements for drivers.

 

[cowman]

I'll hazard a guess that the pressure changes happens a lot more slowly in a car giving you more time to adapt.

 

[Bob Noel]

Since there are lot more drivers than rich pilots, talking about supplemental oxygen for drivers would be met with huge resistance...much much much more resistance than making pilots use oxygen.

 

[Clark1961]

We are visiting CO with another couple.
As we drove up to Mount Evens 14000 we started talking about the supplemental oxygen requirement for pilots.


They asked the question I can not answer. Why is it OK to drive then?
I said because the Road we are on is safer then flying

While many aircraft can be coaxed above 12,500' there just aren't that many roads that high ASL. While the number of roads doesn't affect the physiological response to lower oxygen partial pressure, it does limit the number of drivers exposed and the possible number of actual problems. Basically, it's off the radar for the powers-that-be to notice. All that said, inexplicable accidents still occur on high altitude back-country roads.

 

[N747JB]

It's the same reason you don't need to pass a physical to drive, the masses would rebel!

 

[geneseib]

They asked the question I can not answer. Why is it OK to drive then?
I said because the Road we are on is safer then flying

Because if you pass out in a car, it won't rain down in a school yard.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Because adding pressurized tanks of explody stuff to a car is scary.

 

[bqmassey]

Because AAA has enough lobbying power to stop oxygen requirements for drivers.

LOL yea, "because AAA is more effective than the AOPA"

 

[JHW]

people can and do get altitude sickness driving over mountain passes.

 

[Dr. O]

Ahhh yes, I can see it now. Billy Bob in his clapped out 1972 Ford pickup, a cigarette in one hand and oxygen mask in the other and driving with his knee while he is trying load load Willy Nelson into the player.

The average masses driver can barely keep it in one lane. Giving him a high pressure O2 cylinder and regulator to manage should be 'illuminating'....

 

[DaleB]

should be 'illuminating'....

For the first few seconds, at least.

 

[FORANE]

Very few roads are above 12,000 MSL but even at lower altitudes one might be surprised at our pulse oximiter reading.

Would be educational to see what your pulse oximeter reading was at that altitude. I know mine would be low.

 

[MAKG1]

I'll hazard a guess that the pressure changes happens a lot more slowly in a car giving you more time to adapt.

No. Drivers aren't regulated very much, and in some cases can get away with really stupid things like driving on two functional brakes or with a severely worn tie rod end. Mt. Evans (and Pike's Peak) is actually a very dangerous drive for several reasons, one of which is hypoxia. Another is heat management, both in the cooling system and the brakes. More than one person has burned out a transmission and/or a set of brakes on that road.

The FAA oxygen requirements are arbitrary to some extent, but most people have some loss of function at 12,500. Some people are incoherent at that altitude. It's a lot like alcohol, except you can sober up really quickly by descending or breathing oxygen.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Very few roads are above 12,000 MSL but even at lower altitudes one might be surprised at our pulse oximiter reading.

Would be educational to see what your pulse oximeter reading was at that altitude. I know mine would be low.

I saw a comment from someone that played with their new pulse oximeter in the car and found very low readings driving around. I assume it was from breathing car exhaust in traffic.

 

[dell30rb]

Because if you pass out in a car, it won't rain down in a school yard.

Not true!

Cars have crashed in every way imaginable

New York (CNN) -- Three people were found dead in a car Thursday morning that crashed into an elementary school in Pine Beach, New Jersey, authorities said.
The unidentified victims were found when police arrived at Pine Beach Elementary School, said Mike Mohel, media relations officer for the Ocean County Prosecutor's Office.
A call made by a school employee was received by the Pine Beach police department at 6:45 a.m. The vehicle was found nose down in a vertical position.
"There appears as if there is a large hole in the side of the school building as a result of the car crash," Mohel said.

Another

A car crashed into a school building in western Georgia and burst into flames Friday night

http://www.gadailynews.com/news/161853-ga-woman-rosa-byse-dies-after-car-crashes-into-school.html

 

[FORANE]

I saw a comment from someone that played with their new pulse oximeter in the car and found very low readings driving around. I assume it was from breathing car exhaust in traffic.

No, breathing exhaust can cause carboxyhemoglobin but it is not reflected in the pulse oximeter reading. So, the pulse oximeter will erroneously read higher than it should in cases of carbon monoxide inhalation.

 

[Everskyward]

I'll tell you a young and stupid story which convinced me that altitude affects driving. I gave blood for the first time when I was about 22. That afternoon I had promised a friend who was here in CO a drive over Trail Ridge Road. I felt like I was falling asleep a number of times. We survived without incident and it only dawned on me later what was going on. She never said anything. Maybe she was half-asleep too as she was from sea level.

 

[ionel]

We are visiting CO with another couple.
As we drove up to Mount Evens 14000 we started talking about the supplemental oxygen requirement for pilots.


They asked the question I can not answer. Why is it OK to drive then?
I said because the Road we are on is safer then flying

Have you every been in a hypobaric (altitude) chamber to better understand the implications? It is rather amazing the difficulty in doing simple math, believe we also attempted to play a card game. One doesn't necessarily recognize the impact till attempting some simple math or reasoning exercises. You know in you mind that you can solve a simple problem like 8 + 7, but you sit there and really have to concentrate and work on it for several seconds before coming up with the answer. Now think about all the problems you need to solve as a pilot, frequency changes, fuel calculations, heading, reading and interpreting detailed maps, etc.

When driving a car, do you need to worry about fuel, frequency changes, reading maps, headings, etc.? No it's pretty simple keep your speed at 55/65, stay between the white lines, no real math/reasoning involved in order to drive your car up over a 10-14k mountain pass and back down the other side.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Decisions per second are higher in a car then in cruise in a plane...

 

[denverpilot]

We take visitors up and invariably they fall asleep in the vehicle on the way down. We super-hydrate them to avoid headaches but a few still get them.

Margaritas aren't exactly what the Dr. would normally order for a recovery drink, but there's usually no complaints until the next day. Big dinner, a couple cocktails, they sleep it off. Ha.

 

[ron22]

When driving a car, do you need to worry about fuel, frequency changes, reading maps, headings, etc.? No it's pretty simple keep your speed at 55/65, stay between the white lines,

No for Mount Evens and Pikes Peak it is more like Keep car in low. SLOW down to take hair pin turn. Hope to avoid the car coming other way cutting corner.
Looking at the guard rails on Pikes Peak they are not doing to good keeping off them.

Would be educational to see what your pulse oximeter reading was at that altitude. I know mine would be low.

Wife and I talked about buying a oximeter for the trip just to see who it would read.
It would have been interesting since there was 4 of us in varying degree of out of shape.

 

[denverpilot]

No for Mount Evens and Pikes Peak it is more like Keep car in low. SLOW down to take hair pin turn. Hope to avoid the car coming other way cutting corner.
Looking at the guard rails on Pikes Peak they are not doing to good keeping off them.

Those are usually caused by the so-called "drivers" who never knew what a gear selector was for I. The first place. You know, the idiots who put it in Drive, mash the pedal, and aim. Not steer. That's an advanced concept for their dumb asses. Just aim.

 

[Dr. O]

Hypoxia has effects much sooner than you recognize.
Take a night flight at 8K. Fly for a while admiring the lights, etc. Then take a hit of oxygen from a portable bottle. You are going to be surprised if you have not done this before (or if you were born and raised in Denver)
I have done this test and even though I knew what the outcome would be, I was surprised.

Certainly altitude affects other things. My first trip to Denver was with a group of flat landers, we got off the plane and were taken by limo to a fancy buffet and dinner social. Being almost a zero drinker I had maybe a half of a mixed drink over a 90 minute time period and was watching the others. Now these folks were serious and experienced drinkers. They were on the medical sales circuit. They knew how to pace themselves, etc. They were used to doing dinner presentations 3 to 4 nights a week that always started with an hour of open bar. What was hilarious was that within 15 minutes of hitting the bar a couple of folks were flat on their butts. One even crawled under the buffet table and was sound asleep. Two thirds were slurring drunk. The altitude hit us born and raised near sea level folks hard as our systems tried to clear the alcohol but lacked O2 molecules to accept the electrons waiting to be transferred in the liver cells so the alcohol just backed up and was not being broken down.

And psychological stress has effects. At med school. the the final exam of the first semester of second year was critical. 90% of those who washed out did so over this exam. We spent 12 weeks basically not sleeping and between class and study at night we were at it 20+ hours a day. As soon as the papers were collected the dean announced they had wine and cheese in the lab and everyone was required to attend. (yeah, in those days they gave an order and you followed it without question) Now alcohol was not an unknown chemical to this bunch - most of whom were in their 7th to 8th year of university level education at that point. Anyway, with just some cheap wine and the relief of stress mixed with prolonged sleep deprivation most the class were drunk on their butts inside of 20 minutes.

 

[Alexb2000]

It seems like there is always some form of altitude is the bogey man thread on POA.

We are a group of pilots, sitting still in the cockpit, not drinking, who seem very worried about oxygen as low as 8K.

Yet, thousands of people once or twice a year leave the flat lands for a week of hard physical exercise, drinking, sleep deprivation, driving on mountain roads, etc. and I don't imagine any of them consider bringing supplemental oxygen. They just have fun on a ski vacation.

I humbly suggest that if a person is that sensitive to altitude they should see their physician about it.

 

[ionel]

No for Mount Evens and Pikes Peak it is more like Keep car in low. SLOW down to take hair pin turn.

Exactly, for those drives everything slows down, no real decisions, there's no math, no calculations etc. That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who don't have a clue about driving on those types of roads or conditions, but not an altitude issue, we see that problem all the time at low altitudes.

 

[MAKG1]

Ah, ignorance is bliss. Go talk to professional telescope operators if you want an earful about harsh conditions, including altitude.

It's not like skiing accidents are rare. Quite the contrary.

The first symptom of altitude sickness is NOT a headache and it's not exhaustion. It's stupidity. Yes, really. By the time you feel like poop, you've already been a moron for some time. Some people get euphoric much earlier. Most people do NOT know they are impaired. This is a form of intoxication.

 

[Alexb2000]

Here's a picture of a middle aged BMW motorcycle club at the top of Pike's peak. Not one of them is on supplemental oxygen. Riding a motorcycle on a narrow winding road at 14K without an O2 mask, BAT CRAP CRAZY!

http://www.pikespeakbmwriders.org/club-photos/pikes-peak-ride-2012/17837480

I can't believe this tourist information site doesn't list imminent death as a likely outcome for visitors.

http://familytravelcolorado.com/Pikes_Peak.html

Of course we should be reasonable and use O2 when necessary. We are living in an age of $25 pulse oximeters, so no one should be surprised by altitude tolerance issues if they have them.

Still we make way too big a deal out of this.

 

[Everskyward]

Here's a picture of a middle aged BMW motorcycle club at the top of Pike's peak. Not one of them is on supplemental oxygen. Riding a motorcycle on a narrow winding road at 14K without an O2 mask, BAT CRAP CRAZY!

http://www.pikespeakbmwriders.org/club-photos/pikes-peak-ride-2012/17837480

I can't believe this tourist information site doesn't list imminent death as a likely outcome for visitors.

http://familytravelcolorado.com/Pikes_Peak.html

Of course we should be reasonable and use O2 when necessary. We are living in an age of $25 pulse oximeters, so no one should be surprised by altitude tolerance issues if they have them.

Still we make way too big a deal out of this.

I took the cog railway to the top of Pikes Peak for the first time about a month and a half ago. I was fine and so was my cousin who lives at sea level, even after walking around. But I could hear comments from other people saying that they were feeling the altitude. Didn't Nick write in some other post that the altitude affected him more than he thought it would? Besides, as others have said, by the time you feel it you are probably already impaired. Of course it's not disaster every time. I've done things regarding the use of O2 which, in hindsight, were questionable, although legal. Part of it was the knowledge I was or wasn't exposed to back in the day, plus the lack of technology. I would have had no idea what a pulse oximeter was back then. Even if I did, I think they were only used in medical applications and were very expensive.

 

[JHW]

The FAA oxygen requirements are arbitrary to some extent, but most people have some loss of function at 12,500. Some people are incoherent at that altitude. It's a lot like alcohol, except you can sober up really quickly by descending or breathing oxygen.

the faa regs are not at all arbitrary. They were written to allow a pilot in a 1940's plane to traverse any route in the usa with no O2. Its only when you try to make the regs fit human psysiology that they seem arbitrary

 

[azure]

Certainly altitude affects other things. My first trip to Denver was with a group of flat landers, we got off the plane and were taken by limo to a fancy buffet and dinner social. Being almost a zero drinker I had maybe a half of a mixed drink over a 90 minute time period and was watching the others. Now these folks were serious and experienced drinkers. They were on the medical sales circuit. They knew how to pace themselves, etc. They were used to doing dinner presentations 3 to 4 nights a week that always started with an hour of open bar. What was hilarious was that within 15 minutes of hitting the bar a couple of folks were flat on their butts. One even crawled under the buffet table and was sound asleep. Two thirds were slurring drunk. The altitude hit us born and raised near sea level folks hard as our systems tried to clear the alcohol but lacked O2 molecules to accept the electrons waiting to be transferred in the liver cells so the alcohol just backed up and was not being broken down.

The only time I've ever taken a drink in an airplane was about 10 years ago flying (commercial, of course) back from SFO after a difficult week. I was bumped to first class and thought to take advantage of the perqs by ordering a meal and a glass of wine. One glass, not very big. I don't drink frequently, but I don't normally get buzzed on one glass of wine either. With the cabin pressurized to 8000 feet though, I was definitely drunk and stayed that way for most of the flight home.

I've known since I was a student pilot that my pulse rate is noticeably elevated at altitudes as low as 8500 feet, in fact the first time it happened I nearly panicked over it. If I ever get my Cardinal above 10,000 feet, I am definitely carrying O2.

 

[hankrausch]

I've climbed to 18.885 feet without oxygen and don't recall any effect at all, besides taking it slow because the air was so thin. But if there was an effect, there was no way to tell as I was solo. And climbing the "14teeners" in the states is really not a big deal, never heard of anyone using oxygen.

 

[FORANE]

I've climbed to 18.885 feet without oxygen and don't recall any effect at all, besides taking it slow because the air was so thin. But if there was an effect, there was no way to tell as I was solo. And climbing the "14teeners" in the states is really not a big deal, never heard of anyone using oxygen.

Hank
You must be in very good condition. Most of us are not. Even so, I believe if you felt it you were effected by it. For years I could feel the thin air while flying above 10,000 MSL. Finally I decided to buy a cheap pulse oximeter to use in the plane. I was shocked by the results. Above 8,000 MSL my saturation was low enough that supplemental oxygen was indicated. The bottom line is if you can feel it, you likely need supplemental oxygen. Pulse oximeters are cheap - look on ebay - they can be purchased for as little as 20 bucks. I implore all of us to buy one and consider the results - either fly low enough for your physiology or get yourself some oxygen.
Plenty of information out there such as: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hypoxia_(OGHFA_BN)

 

[azure]

I've climbed to 18.885 feet without oxygen and don't recall any effect at all, besides taking it slow because the air was so thin. But if there was an effect, there was no way to tell as I was solo. And climbing the "14teeners" in the states is really not a big deal, never heard of anyone using oxygen.

I didn't use O2 for Longs Peak about 30 years ago, but I did spend about a week at a 9000 ft base camp getting acclimated, and also did a few hikes up above timberline before doing the ascent. I spent about 45 minutes on the summit and definitely felt a bit lightheaded despite all the preparation. I hadn't even heard of pulse ox in those days, but I'm sure if I'd had a meter it would have indicated I needed O2. I agree that if you can feel it, you're affected by it.

Now after coming back down to 1000 feet and hiking in the woods near home, I was definitely in super tip top shape for about a month. That was a nice benefit! Today, living at the same MSL, I wouldn't think of flying at 14er altitudes without benefit of oxygen. And I'm still not in bad shape (nonsmoker, cyclist, hiker).

 

[gismo]

It seems like there is always some form of altitude is the bogey man thread on POA.

We are a group of pilots, sitting still in the cockpit, not drinking, who seem very worried about oxygen as low as 8K.

Yet, thousands of people once or twice a year leave the flat lands for a week of hard physical exercise, drinking, sleep deprivation, driving on mountain roads, etc. and I don't imagine any of them consider bringing supplemental oxygen. They just have fun on a ski vacation.

I humbly suggest that if a person is that sensitive to altitude they should see their physician about it.

8000 ft altitudes pretty much only affect night vision AFaIK and there's no night vision involved in driving unless you do it with all your lights off. Even airline cockpits can reach 8000 cabin altitudes.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Didn't Nick write in some other post that the altitude affected him more than he thought it would?

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60012

Here's a story of a first time, but I'll preface with another first ever: "The FAA is right about something medical in nature."

So today, I took the cog railway up to the top of Pike's Peak (14,110ft MSL). Once we got above the timberline, I started to get a little dizzy, but it didn't seem that bad. That was at 11,500ft or so.

As we got further and further, I started feeling a bit more, and more dizzy. Once we reached the top, I had a hard time standing up, because my head was swimming so much. I went for a bit of a walk around the peak, grabbed some food and felt a bit better. I got back to the train, and waited with my wife and kid until it was time to go back down.

We descended without issue, and got to the bottom, and left.

Or so, that's what I thought happened. Apparently, here's what really happened:

We got to the top of the run, and I started speaking incoherently. My wife was a bit scared and asked me numerous times if I was ok. She wouldn't let me hold my son, and when she could understand what I was saying, it was generally some sort of cheesy joke that made no sense whatsoever.

I got off the train and stumbled (like a mad-man, as it was described) over to the railing where I snapped some pictures of terrain.

Then, I got back on the train, food all over my face like I was missing my mouth, where my wife remembered the trick I told her about years ago - she asked me to solve some basic math problems. Apparently, I took about 2 minutes to tell her 9x12 was 72, and when a few people corrected me and told me I was suffering from hypoxia, I simply told them that it was, in fact, right, and they were probably all suffering from hypoxia.