Airplane shopping = kissing frogs

Ken Ibold

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
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Ken Ibold
Looked at an airplane today. It was clear the owner is a "kick the tires, light the fires" kind of guy, despite the fact he routinely flies it over big water. Lots of inop equipment, small squawks neglected until they were big squawks, panel contained unlabeled switches he did not know the purpose of ("I think they have something to do with the HSI.")

To wit: broken stormscope, a/p yoke disconnect switch inop, electric trim inop. (I wouldn't fly it, so I don't know what else.) Also, fairing had come loose a while ago and was allowed to flop around to the point that now it is trashed, high EGT on one cylinder ignored and now she uses a quart ~4 hrs, fastener corrosion on the wings almost has the wing tank falling off, most of the paint flaked off the entire surface of the dorsal fin and now the aluminum is badly corroded, once-polished spinners now the color of milk.

All in all, pretty darn scary. And the guy wants 115% of retail for it.
 
Airplane owners say the darndest things. When I bought my Toga I hired a CFI experienced in PA32's to take me for a pre-buy flight as I had zero time in type and the owner had lost his medical. During the preflight, when we got to the belly drain the owner said "I didn't know it had one of those!" About 1/3 the avionics didn't work, either. "Gee, it all worked the last time I used it." Right, pal. Only one unlabelled switch. None in my new panel <g>.

Of course now that I'm an airplane owner, I can't wait to find out what the next guy has to say about me. Oh, wait a minute! I think I'll wait a while on that one...

Regards,
Joe
 
Ken Ibold said:
All in all, pretty darn scary. And the guy wants 115% of retail for it.
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I feel your pain. Many of the 201's we liked looked good up until the logs were inspected. 30 year old Mooneys with no tank re-seals, 10 year old overhauls that eat cylinders like popcorn....yuk.
 
Here's a couple of Gems at 9A1 (Covington, Ga) that have been on the ramp since before I moved here on May 1998.
I'll bet the owners would take the Vref price for them.
 

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Keith Lane said:
Here's a couple of Gems at 9A1 (Covington, Ga) that have been on the ramp since before I moved here on May 1998.
I'll bet the owners would take the Vref price for them.
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Teared me right up. That is so sad.
 
Keith Lane said:
Here's a couple of Gems at 9A1 (Covington, Ga) that have been on the ramp since before I moved here on May 1998.
I'll bet the owners would take the Vref price for them.
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It makes me so mad to see the ramp and hanger queens like that. What a waste. The people should just sell them for scrap and spare parts and be done with it.
 
Ken:
I gave up after chasing a couple the owners said were great that weren't and after a dealer told me he'd hold a plane for a pre-buy inspection and sold it while my mechanic was flying out--and he knew it.

I finally used a broker who also kissed several frogs, but finally found me a great plane we did a handshake deal on.

If you decide to explore the broker thing, the guy that found mine is here in Addison and is also an A&P and pretty straight shooter.

Good luck. I just couldn't keep spending time on things that didn't make sense. He earned his fee.

Best,

Dave
 
I bet we could all take a bunch of pictures of ramp-queens from our local dromes. It really is a shame.

I knew I wanted to buy my Sundowner as soon as I sat down with the owner. We sat down, poured over the logs, he pointed out a few squawks that hadn't been addressed (and I wouldn't have noticed). After the annual, my mechs were very impressed with the condition of the plane. I think you buy the previous owner as much as the aircraft itself. In my case, I had a few first-time-owner questions after the sale and he was more than forthcoming and extremely helpful, thus confirming my purchase decision.

That being said, man there are a LOT of frogs out there to be kissed. I'm a lucky first-timer for sure!
 
Rob,
Because one guy buys a poorly built experimental, doesnt get everything fixed on it, and then kills himself? Are you this dumb? I dont think so. Plus the Lancair IV-P is about the most complex "Experimental" aircraft out there. Its pressurized for cripes sake! Im thrilled that I bought my glider. Its well built, squawks are fixed, and I can do the Mx! And I didnt have to spend thousands of hours building it!
 
No group has such an irrational emotional attachment to their prize possession as pilots do.
 
tonycondon said:
Rob,
Because one guy buys a poorly built experimental, doesnt get everything fixed on it, and then kills himself? Are you this dumb? I dont think so. Plus the Lancair IV-P is about the most complex "Experimental" aircraft out there. Its pressurized for cripes sake! Im thrilled that I bought my glider. Its well built, squawks are fixed, and I can do the Mx! And I didnt have to spend thousands of hours building it!
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Not that dumb (although sometimes I wonder..) and I do realize the level of complexity of the IVP, but something about that report really made me realize how much can go wrong on a home built plane. I would 1)think that the IVP would be built by more experienced builders than your standard biplane and 2) that many of the squawks on that plane could just as easily exist on a much simpler plane.
I don't doubt that there are many decently built homebuilts out there, but do I doubt my own ability to determine (or find people to determine for me) the build condition of a plane I would buy.
 
1) is not necessarily true. anyone with money who can follow directions can build an airplane, in theory

2) is absolutely true

You are not expected to determine the build condition of an experimental you might buy, thats what mechanics with knowledge of the type are for.
 
When I was looking for my plane I contacted several owners of the type I was interested in that were advertised for sale and invited each of them to meet me at OSH (a neutral site) for an inspection.

One response was he didn't have time to go to OSH (which I interpreted to mean he probably didn't have time to maintain his plane, either, which was why it was for sale)

One response was he'd do it for expenses (which I interpreted he had the price set too low, maybe because he was trying to unload the plane's problems on someone else)

One response was "what days would I be there" so he could show it to me (which I interpreted he had nothing to hide and the plane was currently airworthy enough to make a trip halfway across the country)

The one that showed up sold his plane. And it wasn't the cheapest on the market at the time.

If someone really wants to sell a plane they can sell a plane.

But both the buyer and the seller need to have reasonable expectations as to what they're offering and what they're accepting.
 
Steve said:
When I was looking for my plane I contacted several owners of the type I was interested in that were advertised for sale and invited each of them to meet me at OSH (a neutral site) for an inspection.

One response was he didn't have time to go to OSH (which I interpreted to mean he probably didn't have time to maintain his plane, either, which was why it was for sale)
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I would disagree with this premise. My four weeks of vacation per year is never fully utilized and my schedule stays pretty full, however my plane is very well maintained including issues taken care of between annuals. I use it extensively for business travel flying about 200 hours per year.

Steve said:
One response was he'd do it for expenses (which I interpreted he had the price set too low, maybe because he was trying to unload the plane's problems on someone else)
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If I was to fly half way across the country for someone to look at my plane I would want to be reimbursed for expenses as well. It would cost me about $1,000 to go to OSH and back figuring just variable costs, meals and hotel. That is a significant amount of money for a maybe proposition.

Steve said:
One response was "what days would I be there" so he could show it to me (which I interpreted he had nothing to hide and the plane was currently airworthy enough to make a trip halfway across the country)

The one that showed up sold his plane. And it wasn't the cheapest on the market at the time.

If someone really wants to sell a plane they can sell a plane.

But both the buyer and the seller need to have reasonable expectations as to what they're offering and what they're accepting.
Click to expand...
From the other side of the buying/selling equation there are a lot of tire kickers out there who have no intention of buying, but don't mind looking and wasting sellers time. There needs to a reasonable expectation that if, as a buyer, money and time expended will result in a serious look and consideration.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
No group has such an irrational emotional attachment to their prize possession as pilots do.
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Hmmmmm......I've been around a few corvette folks who would fit right in!

Wouldn't sell my 90 vette because the guy asked how it drove in the snow. I made him pull over and drove the rest of the way back to my house then got out and walked away closing the door (to the house)behind me. He stood there a bit confused.

I sold the car to a guy that did restorations and his wife wanted that color combo and year, she loved the car and named the thing before they paid for it......now the 90' went to a good home.

My 81 is now for sale.
 
A problem when purchasing an experimental, especially composite planes, is all the work on the plane cannot be inspected. With a factory plane, at least you know there were quality controls in place. You have to go by the workmanship on other parts of the plane and hope they were the same where you can't inspect. Almost all work can be done by the owner as opposed to factory planes where owner work is limited unless supervised and signed off by the A&P/IA.

It's one reason my insurer won't extend 1MM smooth coverage on an experimental. It's 100K per seat with 1MM total liability. Doesn't matter what training I take or experience I have.

Best,

Dave
 
Well, I'd say you weren't interested in selling your plane.

NC Pilot said:
I would disagree with this premise. My four weeks of vacation per year is never fully utilized and my schedule stays pretty full, however my plane is very well maintained including issues taken care of between annuals. I use it extensively for business travel flying about 200 hours per year.


If I was to fly half way across the country for someone to look at my plane I would want to be reimbursed for expenses as well. It would cost me about $1,000 to go to OSH and back figuring just variable costs, meals and hotel. That is a significant amount of money for a maybe proposition.


From the other side of the buying/selling equation there are a lot of tire kickers out there who have no intention of buying, but don't mind looking and wasting sellers time. There needs to a reasonable expectation that if, as a buyer, money and time expended will result in a serious look and consideration.
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Steve said:
Well, I'd say you weren't interested in selling your plane.
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Well, right now I am not, but if I was and you wanted me to spend 1AU on someone who might or might not be interested that is where I draw the line. If you are truly interested then that expense can be worked into the purchase agreement. Something along the lines of "I am interested in your plane, bring it to me and if I buy it, then it was money well spent. If I don't buy it, then I will reimburse you for some, or all, of your expenses." THAT would be fair, but without some consideration for the time and expenses involved would not be fair to the seller. There are just too many tire kickers out there looking at planes.

I would say you got a very motivated seller to do what you did. It will be interesting to see how you look at things when you go to sell your plane.:yes:
 
Ken Ibold said:
Now, now, don't be like this! My Pitts was described by two different Pitts gurus as being built far better than what comes out of the factory. There are guys out there who do it right!
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Out of idle curiosity :p and at the risk of streaching this thread too far: how did you find those gurus? Is there some online Pitts club I don't know about?
 
infotango said:
Out of idle curiosity :p and at the risk of streaching this thread too far: how did you find those gurus? Is there some online Pitts club I don't know about?
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Not online, but largely via networking through the IAC. (Being editor of Sport Aerobatics certainly didn't hurt, either.) But the universe of mechanics who specialize in aerobatic airplanes is pretty small. In my case Mike Mayes in South Florida signed off on my prebuy, and then when I sold it the buyer talked to Mike but also took it to Jason Newburg who gave the buyer the same feedback I'd gotten.
 
there is a lot of support out there for most experimentals, especially fairly popular kit builts. "gurus" are easily found through local EAA chapters and owners groups. For my glider, i have my local A&P who has built several experimentals and works on old wood and fabric airplanes and gliders a lot.
 
NC Pilot said:
Well, right now I am not, but if I was and you wanted me to spend 1AU on someone who might or might not be interested that is where I draw the line. If you are truly interested then that expense can be worked into the purchase agreement. Something along the lines of "I am interested in your plane, bring it to me and if I buy it, then it was money well spent. If I don't buy it, then I will reimburse you for some, or all, of your expenses." THAT would be fair, but without some consideration for the time and expenses involved would not be fair to the seller. There are just too many tire kickers out there looking at planes.

I would say you got a very motivated seller to do what you did. It will be interesting to see how you look at things when you go to sell your plane.:yes:
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When I sold my 150 I was asked to fly it to HPN from HWV (15 min trip) I did only because the guy tole me he had an engine for it & was on a trip in his company's King Air up from Arkansas. I knew he was going to buy the plane. I was also asked to fly it to many other places further away. I said I would for the cost of fuel. I showd up & he took it for a flight around the patern & handed me a check.

There is no way a seller can bring a plane to 50 tire kickers & dreamers for free. That is just unreasonable.
 
Eamon said:
When I sold my 150 I was asked to fly it to HPN from HWV (15 min trip) I did only because the guy tole me he had an engine for it & was on a trip in his company's King Air up from Arkansas. I knew he was going to buy the plane. I was also asked to fly it to many other places further away. I said I would for the cost of fuel. I showd up & he took it for a flight around the patern & handed me a check.

There is no way a seller can bring a plane to 50 tire kickers & dreamers for free. That is just unreasonable.
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Agreed. When I sold my Pitts, I ate the fuel for the demo ride and the ~100 nm trip to the prebuy inspector. I figured the guy had come all the way from the UK, so he was more than a tire-kicker -- and maybe I got a little goodwill out of it. (And I KNEW the prebuy would not uncover any issues.)
 
When I sell my plane I won't be able to fly it.:(

NC Pilot said:
I would say you got a very motivated seller to do what you did. It will be interesting to see how you look at things when you go to sell your plane.:yes:
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