Aircraft Stalls as Skydivers Prepare to Jump

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by azpilot, Nov 4, 2021.

  1. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    It's not only illegal, it's really stupid. There may be planes you can't see under those clouds. And your jump pilot might not make all his calls because he doesn't want to incriminate himself.
     
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  2. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    Aircraft had South African registry, which is where I assume this incident happened. Not commenting on the stupidity, but it's possible it isn't prohibited under SA regs.....

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  3. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    I guess it's better to run from back to front than forward to back.
     
  4. azpilot

    azpilot Line Up and Wait

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    I think this happened in South Africa. They may have different rules there. Don't know for sure.
     
  5. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    During most jump-runs a number of the jumpers will carry high quality helmet cameras. There are dedicated videographers in wingsuits who follow the tandems, AFF students and formation groups. During the jump run, all the cameras are rolling already. Would be suprising not to have footage.
     
  6. Tools

    Tools Line Up and Wait

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    “ I asked and was told that non-jumpers only have to wear a chute if it's a single engine piston.

    I have no idea if that correct or not.”



    You have to wear a chute as a pilot if there is no “divider”.

    in the pac-750 I don’t have to wear one, if I’ve got a pax in the right seat, they’re supposed to.
     
  7. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    Looks like the flaps are still out at the time of the secondary stall.
     
  8. pmanton

    pmanton Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Many years ago when the reserve chute was worn in front, I was exiting the door when my reserve ripcord caught on a projection. The canopy went outside in a flash followed by me. The canopy went under the tail, rather than over , or on the tail. The pilot was not wearing a chute.

    Just saying. Things happen. I would not be in a jump plane without a chute.

    This was Spain where they did things a bit differently. :oops:
     
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  9. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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  10. JeffBe

    JeffBe Pre-Flight

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    Ha, the one forum I didn't look in. The other post is better.
     
  11. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Threads have been merged.

    Nauga,
    and his progressive spin
     
  12. LesGawlik

    LesGawlik Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I find that scary. I could be 500' below that cloud layer when these guys come busting through. If traveling towards the sun, the visors would block them out until they were right in front of me. In the video, it seems like they pulled shortly after passing through, but that's not saying they have to.
     
  13. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

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    Last jumper to pilot: I'm ready to jump, quit stalling.
     
  14. Jack Cabano

    Jack Cabano Pre-takeoff checklist

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    "Stand up... Hook up... Shuffle to the door..."

    "Move... Single file... Feet together, knees bent, roll..."

    (And I got paid $63.00 IIRC.)
     
  15. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Hope you haven't quit that day job yet.... :lol::lol:
     
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  16. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    "That's not a Vmc demonstration, this is a Vmc demonstration."
     
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  17. Spinka

    Spinka Pre-Flight

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    I try to avoid flying through drop zones when I'm not dropping skydivers myself. You probably wouldn't see them until it's too late anyway.
     
  18. Spring Ford

    Spring Ford Line Up and Wait

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    Don't ask, don't tell (about flight safety)?
     
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  19. Jack Cabano

    Jack Cabano Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Comments about lions on board the airplane would be culturally insensitive I suppose...
     
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  20. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    Skydivers are tiny dots in the sky, and are descending between 7,000 and 15,000 fpm shortly after exit, depending on what type of jump. The chances of doing a normal see and avoid aren't good.

    It's been my observation that DZs will drop divers through thin scattered and broken clouds. I don't think this adds any danger to the jump, since it's unlikely that you'll see them, and they have very limited ability to avoid you. In any active DZ, In addition to falling meat bombs, there will be an airplane making a world class descent back to the DZ or airport. These are all good reason to not fly close to a drop zone.

    When I was flying GA, I made it a point to avoid drop zones. They're clearly marked on charts, few and far between, and not very large, so it's no trouble to avoid them.
     
  21. Brad W

    Brad W Line Up and Wait

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    good points I suppose about avoiding when possible
    but they aren't something to completely avoid. Skydivers are used to mixing with airport traffic....and it's completely fine to fly in. Just mind local procedures
     
  22. Seanaldinho

    Seanaldinho Pattern Altitude

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    Jumped from a KA this weekend, this video was brought up numerous times and we were all very conscious of crowding the door.
     
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  23. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Based on what was written in the setup for a jump it was intentional. That’s just full retarded. I flew sky divers in a c-90 king air and all that crap is not necessary.
     
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  24. bpolits

    bpolits Filing Flight Plan

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    Whoa, now that you mention it, that makes sense.

    I originally put it down to improper technique/training or panic. Did you check out the elevator position throughout the maneuver? If it wasn't intentional, the pilot clearly froze with the stick in his chest, blanking the rudder, keeping R Aileron in quite a while. I keep thinking what if he recovered after only 1 turn, on a different heading; he could have shredded some people.

    So if this was intentional, the practice should be stamped out. I hope somebody investigates the operator.
     
  25. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    That was something I was wondering. Is it really necessary to slow to VMC with one engine idled? I mean that was the perfect VMC demo gone wrong. Is that a common practice in all twin jump ships? I don't think they idle the engines on a single to reduce prop blast.
     
  26. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Frankly it sounds like a relatively inexperienced pilot is being taken advantage of by an ignorant manager. To have the airplane stable at a constant airspeed it requires a certain amount of thrust. Pulling props back doesn’t change much of anything other than a number on the rpm and torque gauge. The actual amount of thrust will be the same. Doing a VMC demo while the meat sacks are running around in the back is just stupid.
     
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  27. Arm3

    Arm3 Pre-Flight

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    Youtube just suggested a video of the same thing happening to a King Air jump plane here in the States. Video is from 5 months ago.
     
  28. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

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    They used to have different rules. Now the rules are the same for everybody.
     
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  29. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pattern Altitude

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    That pilot did a much better recovery. :D
     
  30. BladeSlap

    BladeSlap Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What?

    Why would you fly through a jump run?

    Part of flying is getting all information for the planned flight, if you’re going to be flying over a spot on the chart with the parachute, or the jumping activities rings in ForeFlight, it only takes a minute to lookup the drop zone call and ask about their operations if unfamiliar, or just avoid it if you can’t make the simple phone call.
     
  31. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Really? This exact scenario happened to me. On a day with a cloud layer similar to that in the video, I was flying into a small municipal field with a skydiving op on the field. Started listening to CTAF and making calls 10 miles out (in a Cub, so figure 10 minutes). Zero calls from a jump plane. Since there's a relatively low ceiling, I figured they're not jumping. When I call short final, the jump pilot suddenly blurts out, "Jumpers away at 4000'," which was a lie, since 15 seconds later there were jumpers under canopy swooping across the runway as I was about to touch down, and the jump plane was nowhere to be seen (read above the clouds).
     
  32. BladeSlap

    BladeSlap Pre-takeoff checklist

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    “I figured they're not jumping”


    didn’t call ahead of time and ask about where the drop and if they are jumping that day

    flew through the area they drop, yes you can, but you can also fly through active warning and MOAs


    Also did you review the jumpers footage to see if he went through a cloud and it wasn’t just the angle of your view?


    Sounds like you put yourself into a bad spot

    How can you avoid having this happen to you again? Do you think it would have been worth a phone call before the flight, avoiding the area where jumpers are dropped, or any other ideas?
     
  33. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Because they didn't do what they're legally required to do when they're jumping, and this DZ is rarely active on weekends.

    Did you read what you responded to? I called ahead on the medium designated for them to be monitoring and talking on.
    I didn't fly through the area they jump, I landed at a public airport, same as them.

    It has nothing to do with going through a cloud. They have the same cloud-clearance requirements we do: 2,000 horizontally. Do you believe it was possible for any of the jumpers in the video to maintain that (or that they even tried)?

    :rolleyes:
     
  34. BladeSlap

    BladeSlap Pre-takeoff checklist

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    And how did you judge that jumpers cloud clearance?

    If you’re on my right side, and I hold my hand out and drop a spoon from my left side it will look like the spoon went through my hand, do you think the spoon went through my hand?

    I would call the drop zone and just ask, but I don’t like having close calls and like more information

    Most airports I have seen the jumpers don’t swoop across the runway, if that was the case you should have a talk with the mangement, ever drop zone I have seen the jumpers have a area near the airport or on the airport where they land, and a certain jump run to conduct, knowing this is very important if you choose to cohabitate the same space as a drop zone

    I helped out at a skydive party, followed all the rules, one of the jumps I had someone about to jump my helicopter, and BENETH us comes a Cessna, we made all the calls and I had both my radios monitoring, nothing. Told the jumpers to hold, waited, and they jumped uneventful. I asked the old timer what happed and if he was ok after I landed, he started to blame ME, the jumpers, I invited him to look at the go pro footage, now it was his radio that was at fault.

    I’m happy to analyze my mistakes, and I make them, as do we all, the problem is when you’re getting into bad spots and it’s never any of your fault, there is a chance that’s true, but it’s not likely
     
  35. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Hence my terse biblical quote as a reply. This is a well known risk for King Airs. This wasn't the first one and as long as there is a supply of raggedy KAs cheap enough for drop zones to buy, there will be videos of those incidents. There are only so many people you can hang out of the door at relatively slow jump-run speed until the aft CG interferes with controlability.
     
  36. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pattern Altitude

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    Cool vids!
     
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  37. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Cool story bro. The sand pit between the skydive hanger and the runway is the area they aim for. How do you think they approach when the wind is from the west?

    Screenshot_20211113-153357_Maps.jpg

    Does it surprise you when your experience isn't exactly the same as everyone else's?
     
  38. BladeSlap

    BladeSlap Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I didn’t think it was that cool of a story, and I’m far from your brother.

    Seems they should move the landing zone, having jumpers cross a runway is a bad idea

    It doesn’t surprise me, I’m still a low time commercial, however I have already seen what assuming can do.

    I’m very cautious with drop zones, they have as much of a right to be there as me, and they can kill me just as fast as IIMC
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
  39. Spring Ford

    Spring Ford Line Up and Wait

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    N256TA seems to have a storied history. No idea if there is more than one airframe involved.

    https://planecrashmap.com/plane/ca/N256TA/
    23 Jul 2016
    Beech 65 A90
    operated by Bay Area Skydiving

    sustained substantial damage following a loss of control while climbing

    After landing at C83, a witness observed that the airplane's right horizontal stabilizer, with the attached elevator, was missing.

    ###

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/01/beechcraft-a90-king-air-n256ta-fatal.html
    Beechcraft A90 King Air, N256TA: Fatal accident occurred June 21, 2019 near Dillingham Airfield (PHDH), Mokuleia, Hawaii

    Injuries: 11 Fatal
    Flight Conducted Under: Part 91: General Aviation - Skydiving

    [​IMG]
     
  40. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    If these occur in the US, the FAA should violate the PIC under 91.9 (a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and 91.19 Reckless Operation provided they survive.