Aircraft Evaluation & Pre-Buy Inspections

[wabower]

You didn't answer the question. If you spend $7,000 more than the plane is worth on day one, where does that enter into your total cost equation relative to those additional $700 and $800/yr expenses you continue to list as reasons to buy the Cherokee?

I don't think I've mentioned a retrac, but if so I'll clarify now by saying the point was to discuss other alternatives for the same total amount of money spent over the time you'll own whatever you buy. As it stands now, I haven't heard any economically credible answers and don't think you're there yet. From this vantage point it sounds like a classic P. T. Barnum event that is being driven by the "he'll only come down to 42." To which my answer is that he'll probably own it for a long time.


to those

I don't understand what you're asking. I'm not seeing a problem with an aircraft based on personal preferences. I'm not opposed to other aircraft but the Cherokees just happen to be what I like, plus it helps narrow the search. A retract will double my insurance and almost double the cost of an annual. Based on my budget, I don't think a retract is what I need (or even what I want) right now. I've seen no compelling reasons to get a retract other than I may want something faster in the future and once I eat the first year's increased costs, my insurance premiums will go down.

I am certainly open minded to everything but it needs to be within reason. When I first started my research I actually only wanted to spend $20-25k but had to re-evaluate that based on what I wanted and what my plans for the aircraft were. I wasn't going to be able to find what I wanted on that small of a budget. $45k is a bit more than I wanted to spend as well, but it's probably going to be in that range. I certainly don't want to go above that.

 

[LevelWing]

You didn't answer the question. If you spend $7,000 more than the plane is worth on day one, where does that enter into your total cost equation relative to those additional $700 and $800/yr expenses you continue to list as reasons to buy the Cherokee?

I don't think I've mentioned a retrac, but if so I'll clarify now by saying the point was to discuss other alternatives for the same total amount of money spent over the time you'll own whatever you buy. As it stands now, I haven't heard any economically credible answers and don't think you're there yet. From this vantage point it sounds like a classic P. T. Barnum event that is being driven by the "he'll only come down to 42." To which my answer is that he'll probably own it for a long time.


to those

It doesn't enter into the equation. I separate purchase price from yearly operating costs. Maybe I don't understand what you're actually asking. You say that the plane is priced $7,000 higher than it's worth but I don't know how or where you're getting that number from, other than perhaps your own personal experience based on you doing this for a while. You say to do market research, watch trends, etc. and I'm starting to. Over the last few weeks I've been watching them, specifically in my area. In my area the prices are at around $40-45k. Does that mean it's a great price? No, of course not. Maybe it is over priced. A few weeks of research also doesn't make me an expert nor does it make a complete picture and I'm not trying to say that it does.

You may not have mentioned a retract specifically, but others in this thread have. As to alternatives; what alternatives should I be looking at? I know I want a 180HP at least and it needs to be IFR certified. I happen to like the style of low wings but that's just a personal preference.

I appreciate the back and forth, it's at least making me think on different levels. It's hard to know what an accurate price is given that, according to the opinions on this board, the big listing sides are over priced, vref is off anywhere from 10-30% and there's no place to get an accurate representation of current values.

Is it a bad idea to have a certified aircraft appraiser look at a plane I'm interested in? I'm sure it's expensive so it would need to be limited to only serious interests.

 

[Skylane81E]

If I was looking for a fixed gear 180hp class airplane I would likely buy a Tiger, I like 172s and Cherokees but lets be honest, they are capital S Slow.

Level, my mission is quite similar to yours and even with a 130kt plane I really wish for faster and if finances work out I will likely look for something like a 210 or even a light twin in the next ten years or so. In the mean time I am happy with the 182 as it is a good compromise between performance and cost, and honestly it is the only option that works, any bigger and I couldn't afford the fuel bill and any smaller and I couldn't haul my typical passenger load.


As far as shopping, I got lucky and the right plane fell into my lap, the only shopping I did was to confirm if the price was fair, and it was, I took a bath on it when the market crashed however.

 

[wabower]

Some basic questions:

1. As a general rule, do you think published asking prices for old GA airplanes reflect FMV?

2. If not, what is your assessment of the bid/ask spread?

3. When you see the asking price, do you know how long the plane has been listed for sale?

4. If the seller is willing to reduce the price by 7%, does that mean the plane should be considered as properly priced?

5. Of the airplanes currently listed for sale in the various trade publications, how many of them do you think will sell during the next 6 months?

6. If any of them happen to sell, where do you think a deal will be struck relative to the current offering price?

7. If you challenge a seller's asking price, what response(s) might you expect?

8. How much market research do you think most sellers have conducted insofar as determining an asking price is concerned?

9. Given the fact that the airplane industry experienced the most dramatic re-pricing in history in 2008-2009, do you think that sellers have accounted for that drop in setting their asking prices?

10. What year is the plane you are considering? What part of the country?

11. When you read the list of Cherokee ads in Tradeaplane do you think of the aggregate as being a group of really nicely equipped for use by a new buyer, or as bunch of 40-year-old airplanes having abysmally dated avionics and a pitiful list of upgrades that mostly include hand-held VFR-only GPS units in the panel along with a bunch of cheap gadgets that offer very little value to the pilot?

This forum includes an interesting discussion of pricing, both from the standpoint of various owners and others who profess to understand the market, as well as the reaction of the seller.

FYI, one of the guys who is trying to help you is a certified appraiser who doesn't think an appraisal is of much value at this point in time.

It doesn't enter into the equation. I separate purchase price from yearly operating costs. Maybe I don't understand what you're actually asking. You say that the plane is priced $7,000 higher than it's worth but I don't know how or where you're getting that number from, other than perhaps your own personal experience based on you doing this for a while. You say to do market research, watch trends, etc. and I'm starting to. Over the last few weeks I've been watching them, specifically in my area. In my area the prices are at around $40-45k. Does that mean it's a great price? No, of course not. Maybe it is over priced. A few weeks of research also doesn't make me an expert nor does it make a complete picture and I'm not trying to say that it does.

You may not have mentioned a retract specifically, but others in this thread have. As to alternatives; what alternatives should I be looking at? I know I want a 180HP at least and it needs to be IFR certified. I happen to like the style of low wings but that's just a personal preference.

I appreciate the back and forth, it's at least making me think on different levels. It's hard to know what an accurate price is given that, according to the opinions on this board, the big listing sides are over priced, vref is off anywhere from 10-30% and there's no place to get an accurate representation of current values.

Is it a bad idea to have a certified aircraft appraiser look at a plane I'm interested in? I'm sure it's expensive so it would need to be limited to only serious interests.

 

[LevelWing]

Some basic questions:

1. As a general rule, do you think published asking prices for old GA airplanes reflect FMV?

No, but without knowing the FMV it's hard to tell for sure.

2. If not, what is your assessment of the bid/ask spread?

Based on what I've read in this thread and some other stuff I've read through research, I'd say 10-20%. I'm probably wrong though.

3. When you see the asking price, do you know how long the plane has been listed for sale?

No. As far as I can see on Trade-A-Plane and Controller, individual listings don't have the date when they were listed. On a list view with multiple aircraft it shows when it was last updated but that doesn't mean that's when it was listed.

4. If the seller is willing to reduce the price by 7%, does that mean the plane should be considered as properly priced?

I think that's probably dependent on the individual plane as every plane is different. History, total airframe time, engine time, equipment, etc.

5. Of the airplanes currently listed for sale in the various trade publications, how many of them do you think will sell during the next 6 months?

I'm not sure. Probably a low percentage. That's probably from a variety of factors including over pricing.

6. If any of them happen to sell, where do you think a deal will be struck relative to the current offering price?

If you're asking what I think the price differentiation will be, I don't know. It could be a large difference if the owner realizes he/she is never going to get what they are asking for it or it could be a small difference in which case it'll probably sell very quickly.

7. If you challenge a seller's asking price, what response(s) might you expect?

1.) No they won't budge at all or 2.) They'll entertain reasonable offers ('reasonable' being a relative term)

8. How much market research do you think most sellers have conducted insofar as determining an asking price is concerned?

Most sellers? Probably not very much. For example, the guy I talked to today said that he listed it based on what he thought was reasonable. He never once mentioned anything about researching current FMVs or anything of the like.

9. Given the fact that the airplane industry experienced the most dramatic re-pricing in history in 2008-2009, do you think that sellers have accounted for that drop in setting their asking prices?

Likely not.

10. What year is the plane you are considering? What part of the country?

1964. West/Southwest

11. When you read the list of Cherokee ads in Tradeaplane do you think of the aggregate as being a group of really nicely equipped for use by a new buyer, or as bunch of 40-year-old airplanes having abysmally dated avionics and a pitiful list of upgrades that mostly include hand-held VFR-only GPS units in the panel along with a bunch of cheap gadgets that offer very little value to the pilot?

The majority of the ones I've seen have VFR only GPS units. Some are IFR equipped but don't have GPS or have ancient avionics. Others are VFR only, which does me no good, and they're still asking in the mid-high 30's or low 40's. I would spend a lot of money to get it IFR equipped and certified.

This forum includes an interesting discussion of pricing, both from the standpoint of various owners and others who profess to understand the market, as well as the reaction of the seller.

Opinions vary widely and it's something to take into consideration. As I've said before, I don't want to miss what may be an opportunity. Of course it's hard to tell what is and isn't an opportunity given I'm still in the learning process.

FYI, one of the guys who is trying to help you is a certified appraiser who doesn't think an appraisal is of much value at this point in time.

I won't waste my money then. But, if appraisals aren't worth it at this particular time and there is no reliable source to get an accurate picture of FMVs, then hopefully you can understand why this is both a steep learning curve and frustrating at the same time.

Again, I really do appreciate all the feedback in this thread (and my other one). In the short time I've been doing research, I've learned quite a bit.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

My first plane was a Cherokee 140. Love at first site. I took about 5 months or more to research airplanes and living in Wichita where Cessna, Beachcraft, Learjet and Boeing airplane company are there are alot of folks that are familiar with aviation.

I found the hunt for a plane very exciting and enjoyed it. I spent plenty of time at every airport within 50 miles of my front door. I would head out to an airport almost every day that I could get away. Asking people about airplanes is difficult at best as we all filter our ideas based on our own experiences. One tool that was helpful for me to understand the speed, useful loads and even relative estimate values of different airplanes is the online magazine Plane and pilot. Aviators call this site plane porn. You can look up every model aircraft and see what is hp is, fuel per hour usage, its cruise speed and useful load. It was the single most useful tool for me to know what was a Cessna 150 or 152 vs a 175 or 172.

Still it was a buck shot approach and it couldn't tell me that the Cherokee back seat could be so close while the 172 (identical performance specs) had a few more inches of leg room. I used ASO, Controller and Tradeaplane to search values.

I quickly saw that the exact identical plane would range in price from the lowest plane being $20k to the highest being $60k. Even allowing for autopilot and modern avionics there was at least a 2x valuation difference from the top and bottom asking prices. So I knew I had to be very leery of some of these shysters. The more I looked the more I noticed that the top priced aircraft of any model were really no different than those found int he middle or lower priced aircraft. I mean even with the same conditions, hours, equipment, paint, prop, interiors a guy could ask from $$30-$50k for the same identical plane.

From the beginning I would sort airplanes within the same model by price from lowest to highest and start at the bottom priced aircraft and work my way up to the mid way point. If planes listed from $16k-56k I would only look at from $16k-36k. No reason to look at aircraft that are just plain out outrageous.

You might think the bottom listed aircraft are junk, unairworthy, neglected and the top are the cream of the crop. Actually what I found is that there are a few planes that are not flyable both in the bottom prices, and top prices. Asking price did not necessarily indicate condition. Lot of these aircraft are hangar or tie down queens even at the highest asking prices.

So then I realized that some sellers are just plain on KraK. I now firmily focused on aircrafts priced in the 1/3 lower prices of that model. If I were looking at 172 or Cherokee's I really focused intensely on the bottom 1/3 of the listings by price. I would gaze through the upper list when killing time but only to reaffirm my discovered tenancies.

I am convinced that no one has ever spent more time, looked at more airplanes and committed an academic approach to finding an airplane than did I.

I early ruled out flying across country to see every plane that I wanted because of the cost. I did not want to waste any of my aircraft budget on looking for an airplane. So I looked in Florida at airplanes when I was in Florida for business or vacations. I looked at airplanes in California the same and Texas the same. More or less the planes were in worse condition on either coast than they were in the Midwest which was lucky for me. east coast planes tended to have much more corrosion; west coast planes tended to be tie down queens with flat tires.

I decided to be flexible on which aircraft I would buy limiting it to 172 or Cherokee which ever I found a good deal on. A good deal was one where I felt I could buy an airplane use it for a while and sell it for close to what I paid for it. Costs I spent while owning it were ignored except if they were required to bring the airplane up to par then they would be considered part of the buying price.

I noticed certain models tended to always have higher prices even their lowest priced specimens. 172 is always higher than Cherokee and Grumman always higher than 172 and Beach craft were the lowest no one wanted them. I had at least 3 hrs in each of a Warrior (Cherokee); Beach Sport & Musketeer; 172. I remember hating the 172 compared to the rest and I loved the warriors so when it turned out that the Cheap cousin to the warrior is the Cherokee 140 I started focusing nearly all attention towards those.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Part II -
Even within the Cherokee line I struggled to understand the differences Warriors/Archers/Dakodas all have tapered winds and 3" more length or so in the back seats at a hearty price difference. When I bought my plane a Cherokee was $20k and a Warrior started at $50k. I decided I did not need a tapered wing.

So now focusing soley on Cherokee 140/160/180 I found the 180s similarly priced at nearly double the 140.

So back to Plane and pilot for the specs
140 Cherokee 933 useful load 110 knots cruise 8.4 gph 150hp Lycoming
180 Cherokee 1093 useful 122 knots cruise 9.6 gph 180hp Lycoming

I decided that the 180hp did not offer enough difference in performance for me to spend an additional $20k to buy it.

I did not know what my total costs were going to be. I had no experience with aviation maintenance or other costs. I spec-ted out the local airport hangar at $147 per month; insurance I knew was $600 on $25k; no taxes on aircraft over 30 years old; one time fee with ks to list your classic aircraft and fees to register with FAA were non existent or under $20. I knew I could afford an airplane but I just did not have a firm number for maintenance.

So I opted for the Simplest, cheapest best value aircraft I could find. I knew I wanted to take myself and my brother flying so the useful loads less than a 172/Cherokee were out of the question.

After a while of looking one nice sunny day I came to the local FBO to say high to Gus the IA and he had an attractive Cherokee he was annual-ling. He said its for sale and its in pretty good shape. I called the owner and he had it listed for $26 900 which was exactly what free Vref on TAP was reporting for a 1966 7700 TTAF 2000 SMOH VFR Cherokee was going for. I offered $17k, the owner countered with $24k. I offered $20 and gave him my card. He called 24 hrs later and said he would take it.

The seller paid $900 or so for the annual including $300 worth of catch up maintenance.

Within 3 years I had 500 hrs.

About 5 years later I yearned for a faster airplane as I got tired of flying the local 100 mile hamburger hops. I had cause to go to Florida and California and had made both trips at least twice in the Cherokee. The Cherokee did not like flying out west in the Summer time because of density altitude issues and a lowish service ceiling.

Business was good so I talked myself into spending 3x as much to upgrade to a Comanche. I love the Comanche but for the Money the Cherokee was a much better deal and higher ROI on fun for $.

95% of my flying is solo so I did not need to have 1300 lbs useful load and 200 mph.

In retrospect:
All of my flying has been about want and desire not out of need. Only 2 summer trips to CA with my brother could not have been done in the Cherokee. Although the higher power is a margin of safety when DA is involved.

I might have been happy with a RG177 200 hp Cardinal which is 150 mph and enough rear seat room to have someone in the back seats. I might well have done very well with an Arrow had I found one for the money. I might also have done very well with a 180hp Comanche which easily flies 12k' 145 knots and an Arrow like useful load.

I missed the chance to buy a tie-down queen1967 180hp Arrow from my local field for $24k which turned out to be in remarkable condition needing only cosmetic work and a G430 to be a great bird. And which would have carried me to CA in the summer time at 133 knots and an airplane that might well have quenched my perceived needs for a faster plane enough to prevent me from buying a Turbo Comanche (a great plane which is more than I need 95% of the time).

 

[kyleb]

To the OP...

I'd look at it this way:

A nice Cherokee airframe with a timed out engine might be worth $20k. Nice paint adds $5k. A nice new interior (and not some godawful blue or orange plaid interior) adds $2-2.5k. A modern panel adds money depending on what is in the panel. But the airplane you're looking at doesn't have that, so it is a non-factor. A zero timed engine from a name shop theoretically adds $20k, but no buyer is going to pay that premium. In the market, a new engine and accessories might be worth $15k.

Bottom line, a solid Cherokee with really good paint, a new interior, and a low time, quality engine, but an archaic panel might be worth $40k. Then you discount $10/hr for engine wear/tear, and discount for deferred maintenance, paint quality, and airframe flaws (cracked fiberglass, hazy windows, hail damage, etc.). For most aircraft the deducts are going to drive a real value much closer to $30k, and maybe well below that, because an airplane that doesn't have a modern panel probably didn't have money lavished on it recently for paint, a top notch engine rebuild, etc.

 

[LevelWing]

Tony, thanks for the write-ups. One of the reasons I'm looking for a 180HP is due to the elevation that I routinely fly at. Factor that in with density altitude and I need something that's going to perform decently. I have looked at Cherokee 140's and the price point for most of them is very appealing, however I just don't think that'll cover my needs given the areas I fly in currently. I have looked at some of the other models like you did and the Cherokee's happen to be the most abundant. The price range of Cherokee 180's I've seen on the major listing sites go anywhere from the mid-high 20's all the way up to $60k+. $35-45k seems to be a general average. For what it's worth, most of the Cherokee 180's I've looked at on the listing sites don't have new paint or interiors. Some interiors are better than others. Most have the same type of avionics. A lot of hand held GPS that are mounted on the yoke. A few have a Garmin 430 but that's not the norm.

I'll likely have quite a few hours within the first few years like you did as well. I'm looking forward to the ability to just hop in the plane anytime I want and go without having to schedule it ahead of time and hope it's free. Also like you, the majority of my flying will not be a full plane of people and baggage. Most of the time it'll be just me or me and another person. I don't need something with a huge useful load.

To the OP...

I'd look at it this way:

A nice Cherokee airframe with a timed out engine might be worth $20k. Nice paint adds $5k. A nice new interior (and not some godawful blue or orange plaid interior) adds $2-2.5k. A modern panel adds money depending on what is in the panel. But the airplane you're looking at doesn't have that, so it is a non-factor. A zero timed engine from a name shop theoretically adds $20k, but no buyer is going to pay that premium. In the market, a new engine and accessories might be worth $15k.

Bottom line, a solid Cherokee with really good paint, a new interior, and a low time, quality engine, but an archaic panel might be worth $40k. Then you discount $10/hr for engine wear/tear, and discount for deferred maintenance, paint quality, and airframe flaws (cracked fiberglass, hazy windows, hail damage, etc.). For most aircraft the deducts are going to drive a real value much closer to $30k, and maybe well below that, because an airplane that doesn't have a modern panel probably didn't have money lavished on it recently for paint, a top notch engine rebuild, etc.

The Cherokee I looked at yesterday has low engine time (less than 500 hours SMOH), new paint and new interior. Avionics are definitely old, though. I continue to use that one as an example because it's the only one I've sat in and flown and actually been able to see and put my hands on thus far. I was fortunate enough that it was close enough to be able to do it.

As an interesting side note, I found this Cherokee 180 for sale on Trade-A-Plane and was very curious as to why it was listed at such a low price. That plane is very similar to the one I looked at, except the engine time and total airframe time are way higher.

 

[JHW]

As an interesting side note, I found this Cherokee 180 for sale on Trade-A-Plane and was very curious as to why it was listed at such a low price. That plane is very similar to the one I looked at, except the engine time and total airframe time are way higher.

that is not a low price, it's probably about right or maybe a little high

15 years ago (much healthier market) I had almost the same plane except only 350 SMOH and sold it for $35K

 

[txflyer]

Toad-kissing is part of the drill. You obviously want to look at the easy ones first, but you can limit unnecessary travel expenses by implementing the following steps:

1. Do the market research necessary to understand the price points in today's market and use that information to determine the price you would be willing to pay for any plane in which you have an interest, assuming that it is "as advertised" when you arrive to inspect it.

2. Once you know your number, discuss price up front. If the seller won't meet (or get very close to) your price point, you're wasting money to go see his plane while thinking you can convince him otherwise when you get there. Drop him and move on to the next deal, but tell him to stay in touch if he changes his mind. It's not unusual to get phone calls after several weeks or months.

3. Obtain detail pictures, copies of logs, blue-ribbon package from FAA and other info to verify condition and history.

3. Execute a purchase contract with the seller and secure it with an escrow deposit. Your first trip to see the plane should be for the visual inspection and eval/test flight as specified in the purchase agreement.

If you do it this way (and along with many others in the business I've been successfully doing it exactly this way for many years) you can avoid wasting a lot of time and money on deals that can never happen. OTOH, if you take the used car buyer's approach that "I gotta go look at some planes in order to find what I like" they will beat you like a rented mule.

I wish I had read this post before our last 'look' at an aircraft.

That trip took several days, escrow, $$$$, and no plane....

I learned everything to do wrong at least, so I guess I could deduct it as educational expenses?

 

[Banjo33]

Gonna have to add this to my "subscribed" list. Some great information in here, thanks!

 

[LevelWing]

In regards to values on paint and interiors, after how many years is it no longer considered new? For example, vref (I know, it's not 100% accurate) has check boxes for new paint and interior in which it adds values of $5500 and $4000, respectively. I understand that those values may not be accurate, just trying to get a better understanding for how long you can say it's "new".

 

[steingar]

In regards to values on paint and interiors, after how many years is it no longer considered new? For example, vref (I know, it's not 100% accurate) has check boxes for new paint and interior in which it adds values of $5500 and $4000, respectively. I understand that those values may not be accurate, just trying to get a better understanding for how long you can say it's "new".

Paint is usually condition dependent. For example, paint two aircraft at the same time with the same pigments. Hangar one and leave the other outside in the elements. There will be a big difference in the paint, thus one will be worth more than the other.

Tony is correct. If you want a "deal" in aircraft you'd best be prepared to spend some serious time and effort, there just are no hard answers. If you don't want to put in the effort (maybe Tony really likes spreadsheets) then go get your airplane and trust to your luck. You could make out, or you could loose tens of thousands of dollars.

The one thing I would never do is purchase the first example I examined.

 

[wabower]

New means new. Not "like new" or "almost new" or "can't tell from new."

The seller will try to tell you it's all the same, but it's not. Paint is an easy example. Seller says paint on his bird rates an 8.5. If you know that new factory paint is only rated as a 9 (new show/museum quality paint is a 10) then you can pretty well dispel that notion and figure his paint might be a 6 or 7. Whether you tell him that up-front or keep it to yourself is your call, but something you should know.

Many owners think their 10-y/o paint jobs are like new and are offended when you point out all the rivet heads that have lost the paint. In most cases their opinion is based on standing off to the side and looking at the fuselage. If you direct their attention to the dings that occur in the obvious places (around fuel filler caps, on landing gear and other areas susceptible to FOD or tow-bar rash, they will sometimes acknowledge the deficiencies, and sometimes call you a tire-kicker who is wasting their time.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Tony, thanks for the write-ups. One of the reasons I'm looking for a 180HP is due to the elevation that I routinely fly at. Factor that in with density altitude and I need something that's going to perform decently. ........... $35-45k seems to be a general average.


As an interesting side note, I found this Cherokee 180 for sale on Trade-A-Plane and was very curious as to why it was listed at such a low price. That plane is very similar to the one I looked at, except the engine time and total airframe time are way higher.

I went with the 140 for value.

One thing I noticed is that 180hp Cherokees are in the sweet spot and demand a premium compared to 140's. But another airplane that is over looked or neglected by buyers and which offers a "sale price" to a smart buyer is the Cherokee 235.

For the same $35-45k you can get a smoother running, 235hp.

Many benefits of which:
1. much better in high take offs and landings
2. can pull back fuel and run like a 180hp at 9 gph.
3. can run mogas at half the cost of aviation fuel when its available to you.
4. smoother engine (6 smoother than any 4 cylinder)
5. variable pitch prop for better clime and better cruise speeds (135knots)
6. often has autopilot and better avionics as its a xcountry plane
7. between the prop and engine it has a quieter cabin

I am sure before I would buy a $40k 180hp Cherokee I would rather have a 235hp Cherokee for the same money. Better engine, better ride, same maintenance costs with very few exceptions. Savings in mogas alone make this plane cheaper than the 180hp Cherokee to own.

 

[LevelWing]

Thanks for the information about the paint. I suppose I'd have to examine the plane closely to know how good of shape the paint is actually in. Either way, a 10 year old paint job isn't new by any stretch of the imagination.

I went with the 140 for value.

One thing I noticed is that 180hp Cherokees are in the sweet spot and demand a premium compared to 140's. But another airplane that is over looked or neglected by buyers and which offers a "sale price" to a smart buyer is the Cherokee 235.

For the same $35-45k you can get a smoother running, 235hp.

Many benefits of which:
1. much better in high take offs and landings
2. can pull back fuel and run like a 180hp at 9 gph.
3. can run mogas at half the cost of aviation fuel when its available to you.
4. smoother engine (6 smoother than any 4 cylinder)
5. variable pitch prop for better clime and better cruise speeds (135knots)
6. often has autopilot and better avionics as its a xcountry plane
7. between the prop and engine it has a quieter cabin

I am sure before I would buy a $40k 180hp Cherokee I would rather have a 235hp Cherokee for the same money. Better engine, better ride, same maintenance costs with very few exceptions. Savings in mogas alone make this plane cheaper than the 180hp Cherokee to own.

A quick search on the 3 big listing sites all show Cherokee 235's being priced over $50k (there's one or two below that). That's a bit over my budget right now. Not to mention we're back to the issue with insurance being pretty high, at least for the first year.

 

[txflyer]

Is it always traditional for the buyer to travel to the airplane? even if he's put up full escrow, and agrees to buy the plane if it passes everything?

If I were a seller, under such conditions, I would be tempted to take the plane to a fully funded buyer assuming it passes everything and is what I represent it to be, and it's not too far. But I know that could get expensive for sellers and people are jerks so ...... I'll just throw out our example.



If our recent foray into used aircraft buying had been different, I would probably have another plane right now. As in, if the seller had brought it here, and if it was what he said it was, it would be here now, and paid for.

Maybe our deal was a one off, since the seller literally talked himself and me out of buying the plane. It was a good plane. All documents, NDH, experimental on it's second owner. All build sheets big one's and small, and excellent history.

Having a seller say "I can tell you/he do not want this airplane" to you and your wife over and over, after putting up full escrow and traveling hours, queered the deal. Or in other words, when you have a deal close to done, shut up. :wink2: Maybe he did not want my expert to see it? .... it got strangely unpleasant to me and my wife rather quickly, so we walked.

Part of the deal is, if I'm going to hand someone tens or hundreds of thousands, I kind of want to get along with, and feel good about the person I'm handing it to. And just have their confidence that I'm going to take care of the plane, and appreciate it, but not have to turn back flips and kiss their ass about it....

I know it works in reverse for sellers. I'm not unaware of that. But we like to think we are average friendly people my wife and I, and we can make a deal with anyone. Just not this one I guess ....

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Thanks for the information about the paint. I suppose I'd have to examine the plane closely to know how good of shape the paint is actually in. Either way, a 10 year old paint job isn't new by any stretch of the imagination.

A quick search on the 3 big listing sites all show Cherokee 235's being priced over $50k (there's one or two below that). That's a bit over my budget right now. Not to mention we're back to the issue with insurance being pretty high, at least for the first year.

You need to look at asking prices with a some what skeptical eye. It is a starting place not end point.

I do not believe there is much of a first year premium on insurance for Cherokee 235's. Yes it is high performance and yes some of them have a variable pitch prop but there is zero chance of a gear up landing and it still flies like a Cherokee.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I lucked out in one respect when buying the Comanche. The seller was flying from the West coast to the East coast so I told him if he stopped in Wichita so I could view the plane I would fill the 90 gallon gas tanks.

Turned out I ended up paying him cash for the plane. He filled the tanks for me, threw in an ox system and plane cover and paid his own Commercial airline ticket home.

Of course I was 80% sure I was going to buy the plane when I made that offer. The guy was an air force officer and I was reasonably confident that what he was telling me was accurate from his point of view.

 

[N801BH]

I lucked out in one respect when buying the Comanche. The seller was flying from the West coast to the East coast so I told him if he stopped in Wichita so I could view the plane I would fill the 90 gallon gas tanks.

Turned out I ended up paying him cash for the plane. He filled the tanks for me, threw in an ox system and plane cover and paid his own Commercial airline ticket home.

Of course I was 80% sure I was going to buy the plane when I made that offer. The guy was an air force officer and I was reasonably confident that what he was telling me was accurate from his point of view.

Cash is a wonderful thing....

 

[LevelWing]

You need to look at asking prices with a some what skeptical eye. It is a starting place not end point.

I do not believe there is much of a first year premium on insurance for Cherokee 235's. Yes it is high performance and yes some of them have a variable pitch prop but there is zero chance of a gear up landing and it still flies like a Cherokee.

I stand corrected on the insurance thing. I just the quick estimate feature on AOPA's website and it was only about $100 more per year.

While I have found a few 235's that are reasonably priced, the majority of them are still either over priced or out of my range. Is there anything different that I should be looking for in a 235 as compared to a 180?

Here are two examples and I'm not sure what to think of them:

Cherokee 235

Cherokee 235

Both appear to be IFR equipped and the second has a lot more hours but still has more than enough to last for years given how many hours I'm estimating to be flying.

I'm not sold on a 235, just exploring the possibility.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Both look like good birds. If the autopilot works on the 2nd one that would be a consideration for me although no gps. Still it can be quite comfortable to have autop. I would negotiate off that price a bit.

The first one seems very sweet and I would prefer it if it wasn't for the autopilot.

Both of these planes are nicer than most of the 180's in the same price range. Have more options. This has been my experience looking at them in the past.

Plus you can get an mogas stc for $1 per hp and use that anytime it is available to you.

 

[steingar]

I like a 235 for $40K way better than a 180 for $40K. And the asking price is just that, airplane sales are soft, so one can likely get a good discount if one plays one's cards right.

 

[LevelWing]

Both look like good birds. If the autopilot works on the 2nd one that would be a consideration for me although no gps. Still it can be quite comfortable to have autop. I would negotiate off that price a bit.

The first one seems very sweet and I would prefer it if it wasn't for the autopilot.

Both of these planes are nicer than most of the 180's in the same price range. Have more options. This has been my experience looking at them in the past.

Plus you can get an mogas stc for $1 per hp and use that anytime it is available to you.

Are there any extra maintenance costs associated with a high performance airplane, to include annuals? Is there anything extra I need to be on the look out for when owning/flying a high performance airplane?

Here's a third one I found. It has the nicest paint of the three that I've listed but $50k is a bit more than I wanted to spend right now.

 

[bnt83]

Are there any extra maintenance costs associated with a high performance airplane, to include annuals? Is there anything extra I need to be on the look out for when owning/flying a high performance airplane?

Here's a third one I found. It has the nicest paint of the three that I've listed but $50k is a bit more than I wanted to spend right now.

Everything should be considered. This Cessna 177 engine installation is very similar to a Cherokee 140/160/180 and you may find it interesting at the stuff I repaired this year and give you an idea what they look like: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59403

As far as annuals, not really, but you throw additional items that can fail and cost big bucks to repair.

Very rough picture here

Cessna 172 Or Cherokee 160/180 (O-320 O-360 lycoming)

4 cylinder Engine
2 magnetos ($500+ each)
fixed pitch prop (under $2k new)
alternator
carburetor ($900ish overhauled)
Oil Cooler (very seldom needs anything but cleaning/washing but they can fail & leak which costs about $300 to repair)
8 spark plugs
Vacuum Pump ($500ish) - fail about every 500 hours
Cherokees have an engine driven fuel pump about $300 for new.
Cherokees also have an electric aux pump, no idea what they go for

Cessna 205/206 Cherokee 6 or 235
6 cylinder
Engine
2 magnetos ($500+ each)
constant speed prop (?$12k? new, ?$1k? for any repair that requires a prop shop)
Prop Govornor ($1kish overhauled)
alternator
Fuel Injection pump ($1kish overhauled)
Fuel Injection Servo ($1kish overhauled)
Fuel Injection manifold valve ($500ish overhauled)
Fuel standby pump ($1k ish overhauled)
Oil Cooler (very seldom needs anything but cleaning/washing but they can fail & leak which costs about $500 to repair)
Vacuum pump ($500ish) - fail about every 500 hours
12 spark plugs
6 fuel injectors to clean
More fuel screens to check at annual
Typically have a cowl flap system and the hinges wear out (Cessna stuff)
more exhaust parts

 

[LevelWing]

Brian, thanks for the rundown on the numbers. That actually helps a lot when considering which plane to get. Individually some of those items don't look that expensive, but when you factor in the parts plus the labor, it adds up quick.

Does anybody have any particular financing company they prefer? I've found a few, such as U.S. Aircraft Financing, airloan.com and NAFCO but didn't know if there was one that was preferred over another.

 

[bnt83]

Brian, thanks for the rundown on the numbers. That actually helps a lot when considering which plane to get. Individually some of those items don't look that expensive, but when you factor in the parts plus the labor, it adds up quick.

Does anybody have any particular financing company they prefer? I've found a few, such as U.S. Aircraft Financing, airloan.com and NAFCO but didn't know if there was one that was preferred over another.

One item that pi#$% me off about newer airplanes is a 24 volt main battery that costs $500 to replace. It boggles my mind. No one would put a $500 battery in a car so why in 4 place airplane?

They can keep them damn 24 volt systems in jets and leave them out small pistons.

 

[wabower]

To start it?

One item that pi#$% me off about newer airplanes is a 24 volt main battery that costs $500 to replace. It boggles my mind. No one would put a $500 battery in a car so why in 4 place airplane?

 

[LevelWing]

One item that pi#$% me off about newer airplanes is a 24 volt main battery that costs $500 to replace. It boggles my mind. No one would put a $500 battery in a car so why in 4 place airplane?

They can keep them damn 24 volt systems in jets and leave them out small pistons.

What year did they start putting in the 24 volt batteries?

 

[bnt83]

What year did they start putting in the 24 volt batteries?

I believe 1976 in some models and 1978 in others in cessna land. Unknown piper.

 

[wabower]

And now Spike says the desirable after-market A/C systems won't work on 12v systems. Go figure.

 

[LevelWing]

I believe 1976 in some models and 1978 in others in cessna land. Unknown piper.

Most of the planes I've looked at so far have been in the mid-1960's so I guess that's still the old battery.

Any opinions on U.S. Aircraft Financing or NAFCO? Or recommendations for another? I'm beginning the search for a good finance company. I know Bank of America offers financing but it starts at $50k.

 

[Don Sebastian]

I bought a lot of airplane for my clients, let me share the best methods I found ;
For ASEL;
Ask seller to email logs.
Research AD's/ incident reports, STC's for that model, incident/ accident reports, TCDS all for free on FAA.gov/mechanic , site.
Then call owner and ask the right questions, use a personnel checklist with all your findings.
Decide with your questions if it meets your mission profile, inspections, airworthiness status you planned on.
If it's priced right. Go onto the next step.
Have a company like AIC do FAA file "airworthiness" search. Only costs me $20, if you tell them not in a hurry. I usual get their email the same day. And it includes the " registration" file (that usually includes the new price and equipment, and prior owner-ships, were its been based.
Now it's time to talk price with the seller.
Setup a funded escrow account to show your serious. Then demand the prebuy check-out in your terms and contract in your terms.
Require a flight test, owner to fly. You will be to busy monitoring the panel and noticing irregularities, checking the avionics. Use a checklist.
Do a couple of hours preflight, ask owner to open cowl. Look for corrosion, hail damage, skin irregularities. And so forth, use a checklist.
Make sure, after the flight the engine is stopped with the mag. Switch, you will be around the prop.
Now it's time to exercise you prebuy options.
Best if it's done in the owners shop, but with your person.
Hope this is helpful. Don

 

[LevelWing]

How common is it for the CHT probe to fail? How easy is it to replace?

 

[wabower]

They fail when they do. Replacing the probe is a simple task, troubleshooting to be sure it's the probe takes a bit more skill and knowledge.

How common is it for the CHT probe to fail? How easy is it to replace?

 

[Skylane81E]

Are there any extra maintenance costs associated with a high performance airplane, to include annuals? Is there anything extra I need to be on the look out for when owning/flying a high performance airplane?

Here's a third one I found. It has the nicest paint of the three that I've listed but $50k is a bit more than I wanted to spend right now.

Depends on the plane, there is nothing magic about a HP airplane. You are going to be looking at a bigger engine, so often more oil when changing it, two extra cylinders, four more plugs etc. You are also more likely to find CS props on HP planes, most years the cost will be the same as a FP, then some day it will need an overhaul or reseal, costs vary.

On a PA28-235 I think the biggest extra cost would be the third muffler, fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.

 

[LevelWing]

They fail when they do. Replacing the probe is a simple task, troubleshooting to be sure it's the probe takes a bit more skill and knowledge.

Fair enough. I looked at another plane where the CHT read high on 2 of the cylinders. I'm not sure if the probe is the cause or not, but it could be.

 

[txflyer]

I bought a lot of airplane for my clients, let me share the best methods I found ;
For ASEL;
Ask seller to email logs.
Research AD's/ incident reports, STC's for that model, incident/ accident reports, TCDS all for free on FAA.gov/mechanic , site.
Then call owner and ask the right questions, use a personnel checklist with all your findings.
Decide with your questions if it meets your mission profile, inspections, airworthiness status you planned on.
If it's priced right. Go onto the next step.
Have a company like AIC do FAA file "airworthiness" search. Only costs me $20, if you tell them not in a hurry. I usual get their email the same day. And it includes the " registration" file (that usually includes the new price and equipment, and prior owner-ships, were its been based.
Now it's time to talk price with the seller.
Setup a funded escrow account to show your serious. Then demand the prebuy check-out in your terms and contract in your terms.
Require a flight test, owner to fly. You will be to busy monitoring the panel and noticing irregularities, checking the avionics. Use a checklist.
Do a couple of hours preflight, ask owner to open cowl. Look for corrosion, hail damage, skin irregularities. And so forth, use a checklist.
Make sure, after the flight the engine is stopped with the mag. Switch, you will be around the prop.
Now it's time to exercise you prebuy options.
Best if it's done in the owners shop, but with your person.
Hope this is helpful. Don

That was a helpful post.

I copied it to a .pdf on my desktop. I wish we had a thanks button on here.

 

[wabower]

I still do it frequently and struggle with the sequence and logistics of your list.

1. Any listing will include either the ask price or "call for details." As soon as you know the ask price, you should know if it's worth chasing or whether to fold your tent and move on. A high percentage of planes are priced well above MV and many sellers are unwilling to adjust to a reasonable price.

Since everybody who buys airplanes knows--or should know--of this reality, why review all the paperwork until you know if a deal is possible? Unless you just like read logs and records as a hobby (and I've read all of them I need for this life-time) I'll defer the research until I know if a deal can be made.

2. At some point an offer must be made and a purchase agreement must follow. Waiting until near the end of the deal to get this done makes absolutely no sense and only furthers the amount of time and energy wasted on a deal that is unlikely to be completed. If you can't get a deal papered up front, the chances of getting it done later aren't good.

3. There's no logic to doing a pre-buy anywhere but in your mechanic's shop unless you have no other choice. For example, if you find nose-gear strut corrosion on a Bonanza while it's on jacks for the inspection, do you want the plane in your shop awaiting repairs that can be accomplished while it's disassembled or in a shop several hundred (or in our case, 980) miles from home?

I bought a lot of airplane for my clients, let me share the best methods I found ;
For ASEL;
Ask seller to email logs.
Research AD's/ incident reports, STC's for that model, incident/ accident reports, TCDS all for free on FAA.gov/mechanic , site.
Then call owner and ask the right questions, use a personnel checklist with all your findings.
Decide with your questions if it meets your mission profile, inspections, airworthiness status you planned on.
If it's priced right. Go onto the next step.
Have a company like AIC do FAA file "airworthiness" search. Only costs me $20, if you tell them not in a hurry. I usual get their email the same day. And it includes the " registration" file (that usually includes the new price and equipment, and prior owner-ships, were its been based.
Now it's time to talk price with the seller.
Setup a funded escrow account to show your serious. Then demand the prebuy check-out in your terms and contract in your terms.
Require a flight test, owner to fly. You will be to busy monitoring the panel and noticing irregularities, checking the avionics. Use a checklist.
Do a couple of hours preflight, ask owner to open cowl. Look for corrosion, hail damage, skin irregularities. And so forth, use a checklist.
Make sure, after the flight the engine is stopped with the mag. Switch, you will be around the prop.
Now it's time to exercise you prebuy options.
Best if it's done in the owners shop, but with your person.
Hope this is helpful. Don