Aircraft Evaluation & Pre-Buy Inspections

[LevelWing]

I guess they figure it's NBBTO. That's kinda how I see it. FWIW in both #40 and #54 I mentioned that you need to do the market research that will allow you to know the price you're willing to pay for airplanes if they are "as advertised" wherever they happen to be listed, and also suggested that it won't be easy. As you're now learning first-hand.

Indeed. So when I go look at this 180, what are some things I should be looking for, specifically? I saw the outside of the plane and didn't see any noticeable issues (no corrosion or rust) and the interior looks fine. I'll ask to see the log books but I'm not going to pay for a pre-buy inspection if the owner isn't willing to budge on price. The fact that the plane is local is a huge advantage, but that doesn't mean it's worth what he's asking. I'll be sure to ask him if he'd be willing to reduce the price on any squawks found or repair them before the purchase.

Also, whenever I do get close to a purchase, you mentioned a purchase agreement. Is this something I should draw up and then have notarized?

 

[poadeleted21]

Indeed. So when I go look at this 180, what are some things I should be looking for, specifically? I saw the outside of the plane and didn't see any noticeable issues (no corrosion or rust) and the interior looks fine. I'll ask to see the log books but I'm not going to pay for a pre-buy inspection if the owner isn't willing to budge on price. The fact that the plane is local is a huge advantage, but that doesn't mean it's worth what he's asking. I'll be sure to ask him if he'd be willing to reduce the price on any squawks found or repair them before the purchase.

Also, whenever I do get close to a purchase, you mentioned a purchase agreement. Is this something I should draw up and then have notarized?

AOPA has a purchase agreement form... Google it up. It will get you by. THere are some others where you fill in the blanks and circle some options.

Money goes in Escrow. You get to pick the company.

Title search. Most (all?) companies are in OKC. It's cheap insurance and 100% necessary. Old airplanes can have LOTS of liens on them some are just sloppy paperwork (and need to be fixed), a lot aren't.

You pick the pre-buy mechanic.

 

[LevelWing]

AOPA has a purchase agreement form... Google it up. It will get you by. THere are some others where you fill in the blanks and circle some options.

Money goes in Escrow. You get to pick the company.

Title search. Most (all?) companies are in OKC. It's cheap insurance and 100% necessary. Old airplanes can have LOTS of liens on them some are just sloppy paperwork (and need to be fixed), a lot aren't.

You pick the pre-buy mechanic.

Thanks for the references. With regards to the mechanic and the pre-buy, I'm not going to do that until I know if he's willing to budge. I'll talk to him this weekend and see what he says.

 

[cowman]

This may be helpful to some...

Since I'm still working on my private and I wanted to check out an airplane out of state I asked my instructor if we could take the school's 172. So, while I paid a pretty good chunk to go see it, I got to log all that as x-country dual time I'd have to have done anyway.

Seemed like the obvious thing to do instead of paying for commercial and a rental car... or driving 6 hours each way.

 

[wabower]

If you asked me if I would come down on the price I would tell you that I have determined that negotiating with myself is not in my best interested, and if you're interested in buying my plane you need to submit a written offer. Otherwise, get off of my lawn.

Again, that's why you need to do the research that allows you to know what you will pay for the airplane if it is "as advertised" by him.

The AOPA agreement is obviously a boilerplate that includes many provisions that aren't applicable. Some rewrite will probably be necessary to boil it down to the deal you propose. If you think of it as a two-part document, the logic and content are easier to manage. Part one is a term sheet that summarizes the deal, part two is all the representations and warranties and contract mumbo-jumbo that are necessary to create a binding agreement.

The key ingredient for a prebuy is a set of fresh knowledgeable eyes. The best choice is the mechanic who will maintain it for you, as some accountability for the pre-buy and anything that happens later will be inherent in the engagement.

After that, use an escrow company to hold your money and his documents until time to close. If you're in a state with sales tax issues (and hopefully exemptions) be sure to list all that stuff in the agreement and get whatever you need from the seller before the title and the money change hands. State laws vary widely, and you must be sure your ducks are in a row before anything is filed.

Thanks for the references. With regards to the mechanic and the pre-buy, I'm not going to do that until I know if he's willing to budge. I'll talk to him this weekend and see what he says.

 

[LevelWing]

If you asked me if I would come down on the price I would tell you that I have determined that negotiating with myself is not in my best interested, and if you're interested in buying my plane you need to submit a written offer. Otherwise, get off of my lawn.

Again, that's why you need to do the research that allows you to know what you will pay for the airplane if it is "as advertised" by him.

Do you have a good resource for current avionics values? I've been searching around and the only thing I've found are eBay listings and a few retail sites (one of which wanted about $1,800). I'm trying to get a good idea of value. I looked up the BlueBook you were talking about -- it's a shame they don't have a per usage fee or something other than a 1 year subscription. I took a look at the examples they had and that's pretty helpful, even without the current retail value.

The AOPA agreement is obviously a boilerplate that includes many provisions that aren't applicable. Some rewrite will probably be necessary to boil it down to the deal you propose. If you think of it as a two-part document, the logic and content are easier to manage. Part one is a term sheet that summarizes the deal, part two is all the representations and warranties and contract mumbo-jumbo that are necessary to create a binding agreement.

The key ingredient for a prebuy is a set of fresh knowledgeable eyes. The best choice is the mechanic who will maintain it for you, as some accountability for the pre-buy and anything that happens later will be inherent in the engagement.

After that, use an escrow company to hold your money and his documents until time to close. If you're in a state with sales tax issues (and hopefully exemptions) be sure to list all that stuff in the agreement and get whatever you need from the seller before the title and the money change hands. State laws vary widely, and you must be sure your ducks are in a row before anything is filed.

Great info, thanks! I'll start looking these up as well.

 

[wabower]

You're not going to find what you need in a book.

Do you have a good resource for current avionics values? I've been searching around and the only thing I've found are eBay listings and a few retail sites (one of which wanted about $1,800). I'm trying to get a good idea of value. I looked up the BlueBook you were talking about -- it's a shame they don't have a per usage fee or something other than a 1 year subscription. I took a look at the examples they had and that's pretty helpful, even without the current retail value.

Great info, thanks! I'll start looking these up as well.

 

[poadeleted21]

Thanks for the references. With regards to the mechanic and the pre-buy, I'm not going to do that until I know if he's willing to budge. I'll talk to him this weekend and see what he says.

You're not going to find what you need in a book.

what wayne said.

There's no MSRP for 45 year old planes, even if there was sellers are a unique group. A local guy, you trust, that has to look at you every pancake breakfast is worth some $ if he's just a little stubborn on the price on a SOLID plane, I wouldn't go looking across the country for one that could have spent some time underwater and returned to service thanks to papermate. There are some VERY shady sellers out there, more than you might think.

Buying a plane is a learning experience, when you trust your judgment based on your experience, pull the trigger. If you HAVE TO HAVE A PLANE NOW! Hire a buyers agent and make sure the checks will clear the bank. If you find a good deal on a good plane in under a year, consider yourself lucky.

I STILL go check out the online ads after purchasing my 2nd plane a year ago, I'm happy with what I find. You want to be that way too.

 

[LevelWing]

what wayne said.

There's no MSRP for 45 year old planes, even if there was sellers are a unique group. A local guy, you trust, that has to look at you every pancake breakfast is worth some $ if he's just a little stubborn on the price on a SOLID plane, I wouldn't go looking across the country for one that could have spent some time underwater and returned to service thanks to papermate. There are some VERY shady sellers out there, more than you might think.

Buying a plane is a learning experience, when you trust your judgment based on your experience, pull the trigger. If you HAVE TO HAVE A PLANE NOW! Hire a buyers agent and make sure the checks will clear the bank. If you find a good deal on a good plane in under a year, consider yourself lucky.

I STILL go check out the online ads after purchasing my 2nd plane a year ago, I'm happy with what I find. You want to be that way too.

I don't know the seller or the merchanic he uses. It could very well be a solid plane, or it may not be. My concern is that due to my lack of experience I really don't know how to tell if this is a good plane or not. If it is, I would hate to miss the opportunity. Maybe I just happen to be at the right place at the right time. I'll go see him and fly the plane and go from there I suppose. I did find another one not too far away and I'm waiting on a call back. Keeping my options open and not rushing into anything.

 

[wabower]

Tradeaplane currently lists almost 120 Cherokees for sale, so it's not like we're going to run out of them anytime soon. Don't ever worry about missing a deal because you can't get together on the price or terms. I've bought hundreds of planes for clients and quite a few for myself, and other than a few local planes have never bought the first one that we found interesting and thought might be "the one." In today's environment you have a much better chance of finding another good plane than the seller has of finding another potential buyer.

I don't know the seller or the merchanic he uses. It could very well be a solid plane, or it may not be. My concern is that due to my lack of experience I really don't know how to tell if this is a good plane or not. If it is, I would hate to miss the opportunity. Maybe I just happen to be at the right place at the right time. I'll go see him and fly the plane and go from there I suppose. I did find another one not too far away and I'm waiting on a call back. Keeping my options open and not rushing into anything.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I'm hearing buzzing about "airfoils" and "control surfaces" these days. I don't think a dent in the cowling is going raise many hackles but I've heard reports about leading edge dings and undersized briefs causing some people grief.

Must be a regional thing. We have plenty of cherokees with hail, and leading edge dents and dings that have no air worthy problems.

The only patches I can think of are on retracts that land too hard.

 

[dell30rb]

Must be a regional thing. We have plenty of cherokees with hail, and leading edge dents and dings that have no air worthy problems.

The only patches I can think of are on retracts that land too hard.

I think you missed his sarcasm !

 

[JoseCuervo]

Do you have a good resource for current avionics values? .

None of the resources you want actually exist. To have efficient markets and good information requires lots of sellers and lots of buyers in a full disclosure mode. Think of places like the New York Stock Exchange. Everybody knows what the last trade price was.


Even cars, for a bit have a "blue book" just because there are thousands of each model of car being sold, each month. But, start looking thru the back of a BlueBook for cars (NADA) and you will find all sorts of adjustments. The price of a Camry in Florida is different than the price of a Camry in Wisconsin which is different than the price of a Camry in Calif.

But, to continue with the car book, look at the prices, you will see a Low book of $8600 and a high book of $10,400 on some model. that is a pretty big range. Then consider the actual car was driven by a businessman and maintained by his company vs. the same car that was driven by a soccer mom and had 800 meals served to kids with soccer cleats in the back seat while running to practice and forgot oil changes.

Unfortunately, for planes, the volume of 1964 Cherokees getting sold this month is a small number. There isn't enough of a market to get accurate information. And, that plane in Florida had a different 50 year life than the one in Seattle. The one that spent 2000 hours being a trainer spent a different life than the one that spent 2000 flying the elderly Dr. around with his wife.

So, people start giving estimates, ranges, guesses. And that is what you are going to have to do. Start making a spreadsheet of all the planes in the model you want as they get listed on TradeAPlane, Ebay, Barnstormers, etc.

Track engine, total time, engine time, location, and, if you care, some sort of avionics (IFR vs non-IFR would be enough for me) and Asking Price. Start sending emails on ones that might be of interest. If they are out of the price range, ask them "Would you consider $xx,xxx if I paid for a pre-buy and no major issues were found"? If they say "no", move on. If they say "yes", you have a data point and a possible plane to continue.

Eventually, your spreadsheet will have 12, 20, 30, 40 airplanes, and you can start drawing conclusions on pricing, and factors affecting value. You will have to assign a "value" to Asking prices that are nonsense. But, if you stay with it, and you keep it updated as planes get listed, you will find the overpriced planes stay on TradeAPlane for months, the fairly priced ones seem to always "disappear" after a short time.

The only way you are going to get the information you seek, is to go get the information yourself. You might pay a Buyer's Agent, but, unless he is an expert on the plane you want, he will be doing similar. (Likely a big part of his efforts would be contacting his Contact List of Brokers asking if they have a BugSmasher -180 or know of one.).


As far as Avionics, I don't know that you should value them much at all on a single engine plane. What was "valuable" and state of the art 5 years ago is old. 10 years ago is ancient. 20 years ago is prehistoric. I am sure there are a lot of sellers that want to get their money back for them, but the panel differences would be the last thing I would give credit for as I could put in whatever I wanted much easier than replacing an engine or replacing an airframe.

And things like "hail damage" and other items only affect the value if the buyer's say they do. The fact that you are asking about it means that it causes some concern to you. All things equal, the plane without damage is more valuable than the one with damage. If the guy knocked $500 off, would you jump on it? $1000? $2000? $4000? etc.... Just keep in mind, when you go to sell it, the next buyers will also wonder if they want an airplane with hail damage, so, they might expect it to be $1000, less, $2000 less, $4000 less, etc... ANY item that causes you to question the value as a buyer, probably means it does affect the value, to at least one buyer, you.

People have given you good advice, but you eventually have to take the step to become the expert on the model you are buying, because, at the end of the day, your money, your time, your enjoyment. A few hours a month with a spreadsheet and google would quickly make you the expert.

Good luck.

 

[wabower]

+1. Couldn't agree more, and while I'd like to think I might have written this reasonably well you have clearly knocked it out of the park. Nice work.

If we were were discussing it over a beverage I might suggest that the final list of airplanes under consideration would in most cases be closer to a half-dozen.

None of the resources you want actually exist. To have efficient markets and good information requires lots of sellers and lots of buyers in a full disclosure mode. Think of places like the New York Stock Exchange. Everybody knows what the last trade price was.


Even cars, for a bit have a "blue book" just because there are thousands of each model of car being sold, each month. But, start looking thru the back of a BlueBook for cars (NADA) and you will find all sorts of adjustments. The price of a Camry in Florida is different than the price of a Camry in Wisconsin which is different than the price of a Camry in Calif.

But, to continue with the car book, look at the prices, you will see a Low book of $8600 and a high book of $10,400 on some model. that is a pretty big range. Then consider the actual car was driven by a businessman and maintained by his company vs. the same car that was driven by a soccer mom and had 800 meals served to kids with soccer cleats in the back seat while running to practice and forgot oil changes.

Unfortunately, for planes, the volume of 1964 Cherokees getting sold this month is a small number. There isn't enough of a market to get accurate information. And, that plane in Florida had a different 50 year life than the one in Seattle. The one that spent 2000 hours being a trainer spent a different life than the one that spent 2000 flying the elderly Dr. around with his wife.

So, people start giving estimates, ranges, guesses. And that is what you are going to have to do. Start making a spreadsheet of all the planes in the model you want as they get listed on TradeAPlane, Ebay, Barnstormers, etc.

Track engine, total time, engine time, location, and, if you care, some sort of avionics (IFR vs non-IFR would be enough for me) and Asking Price. Start sending emails on ones that might be of interest. If they are out of the price range, ask them "Would you consider $xx,xxx if I paid for a pre-buy and no major issues were found"? If they say "no", move on. If they say "yes", you have a data point and a possible plane to continue.

Eventually, your spreadsheet will have 12, 20, 30, 40 airplanes, and you can start drawing conclusions on pricing, and factors affecting value. You will have to assign a "value" to Asking prices that are nonsense. But, if you stay with it, and you keep it updated as planes get listed, you will find the overpriced planes stay on TradeAPlane for months, the fairly priced ones seem to always "disappear" after a short time.

The only way you are going to get the information you seek, is to go get the information yourself. You might pay a Buyer's Agent, but, unless he is an expert on the plane you want, he will be doing similar. (Likely a big part of his efforts would be contacting his Contact List of Brokers asking if they have a BugSmasher -180 or know of one.).


As far as Avionics, I don't know that you should value them much at all on a single engine plane. What was "valuable" and state of the art 5 years ago is old. 10 years ago is ancient. 20 years ago is prehistoric. I am sure there are a lot of sellers that want to get their money back for them, but the panel differences would be the last thing I would give credit for as I could put in whatever I wanted much easier than replacing an engine or replacing an airframe.

And things like "hail damage" and other items only affect the value if the buyer's say they do. The fact that you are asking about it means that it causes some concern to you. All things equal, the plane without damage is more valuable than the one with damage. If the guy knocked $500 off, would you jump on it? $1000? $2000? $4000? etc.... Just keep in mind, when you go to sell it, the next buyers will also wonder if they want an airplane with hail damage, so, they might expect it to be $1000, less, $2000 less, $4000 less, etc... ANY item that causes you to question the value as a buyer, probably means it does affect the value, to at least one buyer, you.

People have given you good advice, but you eventually have to take the step to become the expert on the model you are buying, because, at the end of the day, your money, your time, your enjoyment. A few hours a month with a spreadsheet and google would quickly make you the expert.

Good luck.

 

[LevelWing]

Thanks for the advice, JoseCuervo. Good write-up. It's unfortunate that there aren't many resources available for this kind of thing. I'll start a spreadsheet and start tracking what I find. Based on what you said regarding avionics, it just means all the more to me that since they're that old then the aircraft isn't worth what he's asking even with the new paint and interior.

However, based on what I've read on these forums and from just looking on the web, upgrading any part of the avionics is going to be expensive. The one I'm looking at this weekend doesn't have a GPS and I'm not sure it's worth it to install one when I have an iPad and ForeFlight (no Stratus as of yet but I'll probably get one soon).

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

It is not unreasonable to get a good IFR Cherokee for $20k or bit less. However a good IFR doesn't include waas or stec.

A good cherokee with waas and stec will likely be $40-50k.

That means you can look at a great deal more planes than a humble cherokee.

It is more common to see an stec and waas IFR bird in a 60's vintage traveling machine such as a 180hp Comanche, 225hp Bonanza/Debonair, Seirra and such. These planes might be only $40-60k but it is a deduct in such a plane to not have a decent avionics stack and autopilot so the actual sales prices are closer to the cherokee with two expensive addons.

Don't get me wrong there will be crazy bastards asking too much money for every airplane out there but for what actually gets sold the prices between decked out Cherokee and xcountry flyer will be narrowed considerable.

Be careful as the xcountry planes will have 2x or 3x the maintenance. Fuel works out to the same as you fly more miles in the same time and the milage works out to the same. Higher cost per hour but you fly faster. The higher maintenance comes from additional inspections for complex prop, landing gear and more complex engines.

I nice 180hp Comanche with a non was IFR GPS and basic wing leveler should be able to be found for about $29k. 140 knots 890-990- lbs useful load. I am not as familiar with a Debonair pricing but they too are expected to have xcountry acrutiments.

To go way on the other side of things if you were to look at a 2006 Cirrus 20 with duel waas gps, stec 55x, duel avidyne display system about $100k of avionics there is at least one plane on TAP for $99k.

This would be a world of difference in flying.

 

[LevelWing]

It is not unreasonable to get a good IFR Cherokee for $20k or bit less. However a good IFR doesn't include waas or stec.

A good cherokee with waas and stec will likely be $40-50k.

What type of Cherokee? The owner of the Cherokee 180 that I'm looking at wants around $45k and there's no GPS, though it does have two glide slopes. I've mentioned it several times in this thread and I still think it's too high. I did find another Cherokee 180 that was reasonably close but that sold quickly.

I nice 180hp Comanche with a non was IFR GPS and basic wing leveler should be able to be found for about $29k. 140 knots 890-990- lbs useful load. I am not as familiar with a Debonair pricing but they too are expected to have xcountry acrutiments.

I don't really want a complex aircraft just because of the higher insurance and higher maintenance costs. Right now I'm just looking for a good plane I can work on my IFR training in as well as enjoy short cross country trips.

 

[poadeleted21]

What type of Cherokee? The owner of the Cherokee 180 that I'm looking at wants around $45k and there's no GPS, though it does have two glide slopes. I've mentioned it several times in this thread and I still think it's too high. I did find another Cherokee 180 that was reasonably close but that sold quickly.

I don't really want a complex aircraft just because of the higher insurance and higher maintenance costs. Right now I'm just looking for a good plane I can work on my IFR training in as well as enjoy short cross country trips.

I found those two reasons for not owning a complex plane to be....not so much.

If you're comparing a new SR22 vs a new G36, the price delta for insurance might be significant. $45K hull? pfffffffffffftttt.

I keep waiting for the problems with my Bonanza gear. My dreaded "first" annual, wasn't anything to dread. The gear added about 6hours to the bill.

 

[LevelWing]

I found those two reasons for not owning a complex plane to be....not so much.

If you're comparing a new SR22 vs a new G36, the price delta for insurance might be significant. $45K hull? pfffffffffffftttt.

I keep waiting for the problems with my Bonanza gear. My dreaded "first" annual, wasn't anything to dread. The gear added about 6hours to the bill.

A complex aircraft for me is pretty expensive since I don't have very many hours. Of course buying a non-complex aircraft doesn't help accumulate complex hours but I'm not worried about complex time right now.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

$30k is absolute tops for just about any Cherokee 180hp unless it has Super premium items such as latest and greatest waas gps and autopilot. Otherwise I am not so much interested in paying over $30k.

BTW-when most people talk about Cherokees without specifying 180 they are talking about the 140/150/160hp variant and they are a good $8-10k less in market value.

No body pays $40-=45k for a Cherokee 180hp these days. That is a myth. The fact that some of these idiots are asking that and more just indicates how much you need to be careful as asking price bares no relationship to valuation.

At least one thing good about financing an airplane is that your loan officer probably won't let you over pay for an airplane too much.

$30k tops for a 180 hp Nice run of the mill cherokee, mid time hours, average or above average paint, interior, IFR, shoes, a speed mode or two is common. I am not talking about asking price because their are more idiots asking the moon than there are serious sellers out there. So forget 90% of the aholes.

My recommendation to you is to call each Cherokee owner who has a plane for sale, you see and spend about 1-2 hours on the phone, skype, email, IM or what have you, asking him every question in the world. Really use up there time and let him educate you about Cherokees. Then by the time you talk to 10 or even 20 owners you will start to compare the truth from the BS. You will start to gain some insight into the model. They all think theirs is the ****. But you will get an education. Don't get in a hurry as it will take you 5-12 months to get ready and schooled in the whole process.

Get yourself ready. When a plane comes along for the right price you do need to first recognize it without having to call ten people for their opinion as it will be sold by that time and you need to be able to move quickly to get a contract and deposit down with them as they do sell very quickly.

Half the planes on controller or tradeaplane will sell by the owners widowers after the unreasonable old men sellers are gone because their egos will not allow them to recognize the value of their planes. That is their problem unless you want an airplane so bad that you allow yourself to over pay for a plane by 25-35% or more.

 

[poadeleted21]

A complex aircraft for me is pretty expensive since I don't have very many hours. Of course buying a non-complex aircraft doesn't help accumulate complex hours but I'm not worried about complex time right now.

Instead of pricing yourself out of the market before you know the costs, why not spot a m20f for 45K or so and call up aopa and get a quote?

 

[poadeleted21]

You need to decide what type of aircraft you want and narrow the field.rather than looking for just a good deal.then go through the web sites like barnstormers and trade a plane and controller to see what is out there and what the average prices are. Also find a good mechanic to do a per buy I would never use sellers mechanic even if the owner paid.good luck be patient your deal will come.

$30k is absolute tops for just about any Cherokee 180hp unless it has Super premium items such as latest and greatest waas gps and autopilot. Otherwise I am not so much interested in paying over $30k.

BTW-when most people talk about Cherokees without specifying 180 they are talking about the 140/150/160hp variant and they are a good $8-10k less in market value.

No body pays $40-=45k for a Cherokee 180hp these days. That is a myth. The fact that some of these idiots are asking that and more just indicates how much you need to be careful as asking price bares no relationship to valuation.

At least one thing good about financing an airplane is that your loan officer probably won't let you over pay for an airplane too much.

$30k tops for a 180 hp Nice run of the mill cherokee, mid time hours, average or above average paint, interior, IFR, shoes, a speed mode or two is common. I am not talking about asking price because their are more idiots asking the moon than there are serious sellers out there. So forget 90% of the aholes.

My recommendation to you is to call each Cherokee owner who has a plane for sale, you see and spend about 1-2 hours on the phone, skype, email, IM or what have you, asking him every question in the world. Really use up there time and let him educate you about Cherokees. Then by the time you talk to 10 or even 20 owners you will start to compare the truth from the BS. You will start to gain some insight into the model. They all think theirs is the ****. But you will get an education. Don't get in a hurry as it will take you 5-12 months to get ready and schooled in the whole process.

Get yourself ready. When a plane comes along for the right price you do need to first recognize it without having to call ten people for their opinion as it will be sold by that time and you need to be able to move quickly to get a contract and deposit down with them as they do sell very quickly.

Half the planes on controller or tradeaplane will sell by the owners widowers after the unreasonable old men sellers are gone because their egos will not allow them to recognize the value of their planes. That is their problem unless you want an airplane so bad that you allow yourself to over pay for a plane by 25-35% or more.

Your numbers for a Cherokee 180 are low, by 20% at least. If you see a cherry 180 come by for 30k, let me know I'll flip it for a fast 10K.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I'm not saying you should consider a complex aircraft if you do not have the want, need or interest. But if you did want to consider them they do not have to be high insurance costs.

Generally the first 25-50 hrs is high risk for the insurer. So you could do something like add your CFI to the policy and then directly take your 40 hrs of IFR training. You could have it on the insurance policy you will not solo the aircraft until you reach 25 or 40 or 50 hrs whatever you can negociate.

I got quotes on a Comanche insurance at hull $60k at $3500 when I had under 200 hrs of Cherokee time. Then $2400 when I had 350 hrs and by the time I got 500 hrs of non complex time they were asking $1800.

Once I had 50 hrs complex the rate dropped to $1100.

So if you bought the airplane, insured it and then got your IFR so you build 50 hrs duel in it you will save enough to pay for the fuel.

BTW $60k in a Cherokee is very close to $1100 so there is practically no penalty for owning complex after you have 50-100 hrs in type complex time.

Likewise after you get 300 hours of Hi performance complex time bids for Twin engine insurance will similarly drop to the bare minimums.

 

[poadeleted21]

I'm not saying you should consider a complex aircraft if you do not have the want, need or interest. But if you did want to consider them they do not have to be high insurance costs.

Generally the first 25-50 hrs is high risk for the insurer. So you could do something like add your CFI to the policy and then directly take your 40 hrs of IFR training. You could have it on the insurance policy you will not solo the aircraft until you reach 25 or 40 or 50 hrs whatever you can negociate.

I got quotes on a Comanche insurance at hull $60k at $3500 when I had under 200 hrs of Cherokee time. Then $2400 when I had 350 hrs and by the time I got 500 hrs of non complex time they were asking $1800.

Once I had 50 hrs complex the rate dropped to $1100.

So if you bought the airplane, insured it and then got your IFR so you build 50 hrs duel in it you will save enough to pay for the fuel.

BTW $60k in a Cherokee is very close to $1100 so there is practically no penalty for owning complex after you have 50-100 hrs in type complex time.

Likewise after you get 300 hours of Hi performance complex time bids for Twin engine insurance will similarly drop to the bare minimums.

My bonanza insurance for 75K hull, with zero complex, zero high performance 250TT almost all in a cherokee was 1600/yr.

 

[LevelWing]

My bonanza insurance for 75K hull, with zero complex, zero high performance 250TT almost all in a cherokee was 1600/yr.

My insurance would be about half of that for a Cherokee. About what you're talking for complex and I don't have anywhere near 250 hours right now. That's why I'd like to stay away from complex for the time being.

 

[poadeleted21]

My insurance would be about half of that for a Cherokee. About what you're talking for complex and I don't have anywhere near 250 hours right now. That's why I'd like to stay away from complex for the time being.

My Cherokee was 800/yr for 25k hull. That's 800 bucks more for triple the hull value, a rounding error in a yearly aviation budget. I thought "oh ****, that's all?" Pretty much the only thing ive ever said that about in aviation. that was After hearing how I'd have to sell a kidney to afford a retract. If you have lower hours than I did, you'll have to suck up a little more the first year, but if you think you want to own a retract later, it'll be much cheaper to eat a years worth of insurance than to buy a Cherokee, sell it, then buy a retract.BTDT. Buying and selling is a pain in the ass and expensive (as youre figuring out). And yes, people who fly retracts are much cooler. What sort of dork flys around with his gear hanging out?

 

[wabower]

My Cherokee was 800/yr for 25k hull. That's 800 bucks more for triple the hull value, a rounding error in a yearly aviation budget. I thought "oh ****, that's all?" Pretty much the only thing ive ever said that about in aviation. that was After hearing how I'd have to sell a kidney to afford a retract. If you have lower hours than I did, you'll have to suck up a little more the first year, but if you think you want to own a retract later, it'll be much cheaper to eat a years worth of insurance than to buy a Cherokee, sell it, then buy a retract.BTDT. Buying and selling is a pain in the ass and expensive (as youre figuring out). And yes, people who fly retracts are much cooler. What sort of dork flys around with his gear hanging out?

Sean Tucker for one.

 

[LevelWing]

My Cherokee was 800/yr for 25k hull. That's 800 bucks more for triple the hull value, a rounding error in a yearly aviation budget. I thought "oh ****, that's all?" Pretty much the only thing ive ever said that about in aviation. that was After hearing how I'd have to sell a kidney to afford a retract. If you have lower hours than I did, you'll have to suck up a little more the first year, but if you think you want to own a retract later, it'll be much cheaper to eat a years worth of insurance than to buy a Cherokee, sell it, then buy a retract.BTDT. Buying and selling is a pain in the ass and expensive (as youre figuring out). And yes, people who fly retracts are much cooler. What sort of dork flys around with his gear hanging out?

I understand what you're saying but right now I don't think a complex is what I need. I'm not even sure I could find a complex for the price I'm willing to pay. I don't even want to pay the $45k for the Cherokee I'm going to look at this weekend, but that's mostly because I don't think it's worth it. I suppose I could probably get a Beechcraft Sierra for a reasonable price.

 

[poadeleted21]

Sean Tucker for one.

Is he a Mid 30s slightly overweight balding software engineer? Nahh... He's not that cool.

 

[poadeleted21]

I understand what you're saying but right now I don't think a complex is what I need. I'm not even sure I could find a complex for the price I'm willing to pay. I don't even want to pay the $45k for the Cherokee I'm going to look at this weekend, but that's mostly because I don't think it's worth it. I suppose I could probably get a Beechcraft Sierra for a reasonable price.

Got ya. Just trying to keep you from unnecessarily closing doors on yourself.l

I wouldn't say it wasn't worth it based on information obtained from this forum post. But, shop around and you'll figure out soon enough if it is or isn't.

 

[wabower]

I think you need to take a longer view to determine what you want. If we fast-forward the clock for a year, you will have completed the IR and have done some short X/C trips.

Then what? What's the ongoing need/use for the plane that makes it worth having vs. living with a $45k hole in your pocket and a plane nobody wants sitting at the airport? Short-term plane ownership is in most cases a very costly proposition, if you don't have a long-term need don't incur a long-term non-liquid capital obligation.

IOW, you should realistically assess your ongoing use/need for a plane and buy one that matches up. If there's no need, don't buy one. They are too damn expensive to have sitting around. If you don't have that piece of the puzzle firmly in hand with answers you could sell to a panel of guys who have BTDT and understand the game, you should in all likelihood continue renting until a deal comes along that provides a much better long-term value than throwing ~$40k at an old Cherokee.

I understand what you're saying but right now I don't think a complex is what I need. I'm not even sure I could find a complex for the price I'm willing to pay. I don't even want to pay the $45k for the Cherokee I'm going to look at this weekend, but that's mostly because I don't think it's worth it. I suppose I could probably get a Beechcraft Sierra for a reasonable price.

 

[dell30rb]

You might spend an extra $700 on insurance for a retract your first year. Maybe add $500 to each annual. Do consider though - if your goal is travel, the fuel saved will offset the maintenance of the retractable gear.

It's not about retract vs non retract but finding something you will be happy with for several years. If your goal is IR and 250-400nm trips, you will be wishing for something faster than 115kts. But this means something affordable as well. Run the numbers and make sure whatever you get is not going to stretch your budget.

 

[denverpilot]

My dumbass bought a plane not knowing which end of the country I lived in and got to fly it across the country north to south (Texas to Montana) and again diagonally(Montana to Savannah, GA).

That's a bonus, not a negative!

Heh heh.

 

[LevelWing]

I think you need to take a longer view to determine what you want. If we fast-forward the clock for a year, you will have completed the IR and have done some short X/C trips.

Then what? What's the ongoing need/use for the plane that makes it worth having vs. living with a $45k hole in your pocket and a plane nobody wants sitting at the airport? Short-term plane ownership is in most cases a very costly proposition, if you don't have a long-term need don't incur a long-term non-liquid capital obligation.

IOW, you should realistically assess your ongoing use/need for a plane and buy one that matches up. If there's no need, don't buy one. They are too damn expensive to have sitting around. If you don't have that piece of the puzzle firmly in hand with answers you could sell to a panel of guys who have BTDT and understand the game, you should in all likelihood continue renting until a deal comes along that provides a much better long-term value than throwing ~$40k at an old Cherokee.

I understand what you're saying but I don't plan on getting rid of the plane once I have my IFR rating. I want the airplane to be able to enjoy and fly as I can. I don't plan on making long cross-country flights of more than about 500nm. I'm perfectly happy with a Cherokee. I don't see the need to get something more right now.

It's not about retract vs non retract but finding something you will be happy with for several years. If your goal is IR and 250-400nm trips, you will be wishing for something faster than 115kts. But this means something affordable as well. Run the numbers and make sure whatever you get is not going to stretch your budget.

I'm sure I'll be happy with a Cherokee for years. As you said, it also has to be affordable. Right now, I'd rather not spend the extra on a retractable gear plane. I'd rather take that extra money and put it towards whatever may come up with the Cherokee.

I flew the plane today that I've been looking at for a week or so. It flies great. No issues with the flight (other than the guy selling it scaring me with how he flies). He had the log books but I didn't look at them today, but I plan to in the near future. The avionics are definitely old (except the audio panel, that's new) but they work. I played with the instruments to make sure I could pick up a VOR which worked just fine. Everything seems like it's great. I talked to another guy at the airport who knows him and the plane and said he probably would come down to around $42k or so.

That being said, I've been looking into some other Cherokee's in the area as well. I talked to the mechanics who did the annuals on two different Cherokees. The first mechanic said the plane he did the annual on was not a good buy, it wasn't airworthy and it was a just a piece of metal sitting there. The second mechanic I talked to about another Cherokee said the plane was airworthy but that it would need some work on the paint, fiber glass, etc. The interior was probably original and that the engine would probably need a new cam and lifters within the next 100 hours or so but he couldn't be certain because he didn't pull it apart for the annual. He said that would cost over $6k to fix. The asking price for that plane was $45k but the mechanic said he'd probably take $40k.

Taking what JoseCuervo said about different markets and different regions, it seems that the Cherokees in this area are going for around $40-$48k-ish. Of the 4 I've looked into (all Cherokee 180's) the one I flew today seems to be the best and he's willing to come down a little on the price. I'm not committing to anything but this does add a lot to my research and helps with current market values for this particular area.

 

[poadeleted21]

I was never going to need anything more than a Cherokee one time

 

[LevelWing]

I was never going to need anything more than a Cherokee one time

Maybe down the road I'll want something faster. In fact it's probably likely. But for my purposes right now and for the foreseeable future (and for my budget at this time), I can't justify the extra money on a retract.

 

[wabower]

What is it about the Cherokee that makes them so attractive? Did you train in one and find it to be exactly what you want? Or maybe use one extensively for the kind of trips you're contemplating after the purchase? You're obvioiusly seeing something that others are missing (or maybe it's the opposite) but I'm not finding the story to be nearly as compelling.

Maybe down the road I'll want something faster. In fact it's probably likely. But for my purposes right now and for the foreseeable future (and for my budget at this time), I can't justify the extra money on a retract.

 

[LevelWing]

What is it about the Cherokee that makes them so attractive? Did you train in one and find it to be exactly what you want? Or maybe use one extensively for the kind of trips you're contemplating after the purchase? You're obvioiusly seeing something that others are missing (or maybe it's the opposite) but I'm not finding the story to be nearly as compelling.

I like the way they look and I like the way they fly. A 180 has enough power to get me where I want within a reasonable amount of time. They're cost effective for me at this time (as compared to a retract). I guess it's just a personal preference.

 

[wabower]

Are you measuring the full-cycle cost of ownership (all money in minus all money out) when comparing the Cherokee to others, or are you hung up on some minor line-item differences?

If somebody (or numerous somebodies) told you that the amount you are thinking of spending is ~30% too much for what you're getting in return and is much more than the additional own/op costs of a much more capable airplane, would you do more research before making a decision or continue to play the "because I want to" trump card that will obviously silence all the nay-sayers?

I like the way they look and I like the way they fly. A 180 has enough power to get me where I want within a reasonable amount of time. They're cost effective for me at this time (as compared to a retract). I guess it's just a personal preference.

 

[LevelWing]

Are you measuring the full-cycle cost of ownership (all money in minus all money out) when comparing the Cherokee to others, or are you hung up on some minor line-item differences?

If somebody (or numerous somebodies) told you that the amount you are thinking of spending is ~30% too much for what you're getting in return and is much more than the additional own/op costs of a much more capable airplane, would you do more research before making a decision or continue to play the "because I want to" trump card that will obviously silence all the nay-sayers?

I don't understand what you're asking. I'm not seeing a problem with an aircraft based on personal preferences. I'm not opposed to other aircraft but the Cherokees just happen to be what I like, plus it helps narrow the search. A retract will double my insurance and almost double the cost of an annual. Based on my budget, I don't think a retract is what I need (or even what I want) right now. I've seen no compelling reasons to get a retract other than I may want something faster in the future and once I eat the first year's increased costs, my insurance premiums will go down.

I am certainly open minded to everything but it needs to be within reason. When I first started my research I actually only wanted to spend $20-25k but had to re-evaluate that based on what I wanted and what my plans for the aircraft were. I wasn't going to be able to find what I wanted on that small of a budget. $45k is a bit more than I wanted to spend as well, but it's probably going to be in that range. I certainly don't want to go above that.