Aicraft partnerships

[Richard]

I've never had a partner before; whether it was business, boats, or other equipment I've always avoided the potential problems inherent in a partnership. That doesn't mean I never was looking, just that I never found someone who filled my criteria.

So now I have a partner and already there are some problems, although small at this time they have the potential for exploding.

What do YOU do when--

1) There is a difference of opinion to what level the a/c should be maintained? (Airworthiness is not the issue--the issue is do want to demonstrate pride of ownership or are you happy with just legally airworthy?)

2) Your pard wants to continue to use the same A&P--someone you have identified as unwilling or unable to perform to your expectations?

There are personal relationships which go back many years which will probably suffer if I do not maintain the status quo by staying with the same shop. (The a/c is privately owned but hangered at a museum. That old boy network composed of highly skilled volunteers is a good deal in many ways but it interferes with my plans to make a full restoration to as pristine condition as I can get.)

I know, I'm probably being over sensitive to this but I don't want to be cast as the bad guy and I do need to be on good terms with my aprt neighbors. There are no safety issues, as yet, but the status quo is unacceptable to me. I'll be making my decisions very soon and just wonder what tips y'all may have.

I usually take some time to gather all available information to make a decision but once I make the decision I go with it--sometimes that ramrod approach ticks off people. Until now, I've always had the luxury of telling 'em tough if they don't like it.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Richard,

A bit of a predicament you've got. I have 2 partners in my 182, and fortunately things are going well so far, despite a very long down-time while we are doing an exterior restoration. What understanding/discussions did you have with your partner before forming the partnership? How formal is the partnership agreement? An obvious middle-ground would be to find some kind of compromise, but if that isn't going to be workable, could you find a different partner? If worst-came-to-worst, what dissolution agreement do you have for the partnership? I'm fortunate, I guess, that there are 3 in my partnership - so far we've all agreed (pretty much) on everything, but I'm sure that won't last, and we have contractual language that specifies what can be done with just a majority decision vs. a unanimous decision.

If there are improvements you want to make that your partner doesn't, can you agree to pay for all of the improvement in exchange for a increased % ownership in the plane (assuming you are adding value to the plane with the improvement)?

Jeff

 

[Richard]

I bought into an existing partnership, I bought the 1/2 share of a partner. The partnership is very informal, however we did--at my insistence--include specific verbage if one wants out. Neither wants out, the plane is a blast to fly and I really enjoy the attention it gets on the ramp--especially from the kids.

Your last pp is interesting...but without a 3rd party appraisal how to assign value? It's hardly ever a dollar for dollar swap.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Your last pp is interesting...but without a 3rd party appraisal how to assign value? It's hardly ever a dollar for dollar swap.

That's the tricky part - either you both agree to it (in writing), or you could have a professional aircraft appraiser tell you what the change in value would likely be, and you both agree to use that as the difference (an appraiser's opinion will probably cost a couple hundred bucks).

Jeff

 

[John J]

Richard;

Sounds like you in 'A rock and a Hard Place" with your current setup. I had two partnerships. We worked out the roles before we shock hands and signed. Ther first I was the "maintenance manger" and it worked really well for the other half was more the "Book keeper". It worked on a Turbo Arrow for over 1600 hours. The second one was more recent. He is an A&I and I helped on the maintainence.We had over 500 hours of fun and no problems. We were very lucky and I found it can work if the roles of the individuals are defined well before hand. It can work out well if the homework is done ahead of time.

John J

 

[Richard]

Richard;

Sounds like you in 'A rock and a Hard Place" with your current setup. I had two partnerships. We worked out the roles before we shock hands and signed. Ther first I was the "maintenance manger" and it worked really well for the other half was more the "Book keeper". It worked on a Turbo Arrow for over 1600 hours. The second one was more recent. He is an A&I and I helped on the maintainence.We had over 500 hours of fun and no problems. We were very lucky and I found it can work if the roles of the individuals are defined well before hand. It can work out well if the homework is done ahead of time.

John J

John, with all due respect, I point out this is all after the fact. My fault I didn't do my homework more thouroughly. But I already knew of the persons involved, some more than others, and I don't know how I would have found out some of these things before entering into the partnership.

F'rinstance, the A&P; a likeably fellow and I know he knows his trade well. But never was it mentioned to me he's only available on Saturdays or that he may decide not to show up next Saturday. In fact, even after getting in, I have been having a hard time trying to nail him to a schedule, any schedule.

I guess my wife's advice to treat this like I am sole owner is the best. If that upsets the cart, so be it. But it'll get me closer to my goal.

 

[gismo]

That's the tricky part - either you both agree to it (in writing), or you could have a professional aircraft appraiser tell you what the change in value would likely be, and you both agree to use that as the difference (an appraiser's opinion will probably cost a couple hundred bucks).

Jeff

One method that I've found pretty fair is to allow one party to set the value and give the other party the option to buy or sell at that price. This forces the one setting the value to be as fair as possible. If he set's it too high, the other can make him pay it and if too low the other can buy out at the low price. In one case we added a 10% discount to the party wanting to continue the partnership, but that shouldn't apply if both want out.

 

[John J]

I guess my wife's advice to treat this like I am sole owner is the best. If that upsets the cart, so be it. But it'll get me closer to my goal.

Richard;

Partnerships are not easy and I was vey lucky in the two that I had. Your quote above is great advice. I found that when I was looking for partners I took the approach of looking for people who had strenghts that I did not have and it worked in both cases. We worked on all the details of "what if's" before hand. It was a longhard process but it worked out.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you.

John J

 

[gismo]

Richard;

Partnerships are not easy and I was vey lucky in the two that I had. Your quote above is great advice. I found that when I was looking for partners I took the approach of looking for people who had strenghts that I did not have and it worked in both cases. We worked on all the details of "what if's" before hand. It was a longhard process but it worked out.

Synergy is great, but the most important thing in any partnership is common goals and perspective.

 

[bstratt]

In my experience (outside of aircraft) rarely does each partner come with either the same set of skills or "hot buttons". It's like a marriage, you compromise -which usually means the one with the higher standards takes over (after my wife saw the fine job I did cleaning toilets she said she'd do it from now on!! )

In our plane partnership (4 of us) we have one partner who is a fanatic about maintenance (charts everything) so he became the guy in charge of maintenance. I'm a numbers guy who always wants to know where we stand so I became the bookeeper. Another guy is an electrical engineer who is responsible for the electronics on board (GPS updates, etc.). The fourth guy, by default, became responsible for cleanliness of the plane and hangar. We're still in the honeymoon stage but so far things are going okay.

 

[Richard]

Barry, I was wondering how long it would take before someone compared a partnership to marriage. What if I want to fly other aircraft?


All, I appreciate your responses. While I wasn't necessarily looking for a glove fit, or synergy, as Lance said I would like it if our common goal was more than, 'to fly'.

I and an outside A&P gave a good look at the tailwheel today. It should probably be rebuilt altogether. It appears much of the damage/state of disrepair is the result of improper mx. That right there is a very good indication of where my partner is coming from.

OTOH, this plane needs a guy like me, otherwise she may have become a planter box. Barely legal becomes legal, barely. With the passage of time that becomes, what, a parts bin? Okay, I'm now in the process of getting my head straight about this...

 

[John J]

Barry, I was wondering how long it would take before someone compared a partnership to marriage. What if I want to fly other aircraft?


All, I appreciate your responses. While I wasn't necessarily looking for a glove fit, or synergy, as Lance said I would like it if our common goal was more than, 'to fly'.

I and an outside A&P gave a good look at the tailwheel today. It should probably be rebuilt altogether. It appears much of the damage/state of disrepair is the result of improper mx. That right there is a very good indication of where my partner is coming from.

OTOH, this plane needs a guy like me, otherwise she may have become a planter box. Barely legal becomes legal, barely. With the passage of time that becomes, what, a parts bin? Okay, I'm now in the process of getting my head straight about this...

Richard;

I so remember the "marriage of the partnership' It was over issues such as what you are dealing with. Passion of flying and maintenance were very much a part of my first partnership. I read your note about how you care about your plane. My first partner did not like to deal with maintenance. I use to give our plane all the care and maintenance. He just wanted to fly and was very good at the books. We worked very hard to make the partnership work for we both loved flying and that was our end goal. Yes we had some rough times but it worked for over 1600 hours. It taught me that it can work but there will be many bumps in the road to get to the end goal which is to flying and enjoy.

Again good luck and I hope it works out

John J