AGI privileges

TMetzinger

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Tim
Now I know that an AGI privilege includes "...any certificate or rating", but I saw on my King CFI prep that an AGI cannot do instrument ground work (endorse for knowledge test or do the ground portion of an IPC). I believe that's the INTENT of the reg but not how it's been interpreted.

Does anybody (Ron?) have an FAA interpretation to decide it one way or another?
 
What is the intent? If AGI covered EVERYTHING, there would be no need for the IGI. You need the IGI to do instrument stuff.

No reference. Sorry. But how many instrument questions did/do you see on the AGI written? :D
 
The point is the FAR does NOT restrict the AGI privileges. Where do you find an instrument limitation in:

(b) A person who holds an advanced ground instructor rating is authorized to provide:
(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of any certificate or rating under this part;
(2) Ground training required for any flight review; and
(3) A recommendation for a knowledge test required for the issuance of any certificate under this part.

I agree that AGI doesn't test instrument stuff. I agree that the reg SHOULD say that an AGI can't endorse instrument stuff. But that's NOT what the reg says.

What I'm looking for is any letter of interpretation to settle this. Or, I'd like to see a case where an inspector/examiner/testing center sent a student home because his knowledge test endorsement was from an AGI, or where they deemed the ground portion of his IPC was invalid because it came from an AGI.
 
theres no ground portion to an IPC. and IIRC, the AGI thing is a loophole that Ive heard will probably be closed the next rewrite of Pt 61. of course I have no actual documentation to back that up.
 
ED GUTHRIE, PLEASE DON'T READ THIS.

Wow. I just went and looked at my not existent copy of a document that does not exist and has no official standing. In said non existent document that I don't have anymore, that regulation was literally interpreted. The word "any" was quoted.

Bottom line, said non document stated that since the regulation said that the AGI could deal with "ANY" certificate or rating under this part, the AGI could do instrument stuff also.

Wow. Whoda thunk it.
 
theres no ground portion to an IPC. and IIRC, the AGI thing is a loophole that Ive heard will probably be closed the next rewrite of Pt 61. of course I have no actual documentation to back that up.
I suspect that will happen along with the logging of PIC without the appropriate endorsements.

I wouldn't take the word "any" in the literal sense.
 
Note first of all that the Instrument written is only for a rating, not a certificate, regardless of whether it's on a CFI, pilot, or GI certificate.

Now...

As the reg is currently written, GI's with the Advanced rating but without the Instrument rating can, per subparagraph (1), give ground training towards any rating (including any Instrument rating as well as training in a flight simulation device, which is considered "ground training" -- see 61.1(b)(8)), but subparagraph (2) only authorizes GI-A's to give endorsements for certificates, not ratings -- a distinction made in subparagraph (1) of that paragraph. Thus, as the reg is written, a GI-A can give the ground training for an IR on any certificate, but cannot sign the written test endorsement for an IR on any certificate. This was specifically addressed by the FAA in the preamble of the NPRM for the new Part 61 rewrite due to go final early next year. That rewrite will eliminate the erroneously-granted authority of GI-A's to give Instrument rating and other instrument ground training, thus ending the confusion.
 
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Are there any "ratings" beside the instrument rating that require a knowledge test and endorsement?

Is that part 61 NPRM out yet? If so, where? And if not, where did you find it?

If the NPRM isn't out, I would expect the rewrite to be at least a year before final.
 
Ron, that sort of confused the issue.:D I can't tie your sub paragraph references with the actual regulation.

§ 61.215 Ground instructor privileges.

(b) A person who holds an advanced ground instructor rating is authorized to provide:

(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of any certificate or rating under this part;

(2) Ground training required for any flight review; and

(3) A recommendation for a knowledge test required for the issuance of any certificate under this part.

Sub 1 and 2 says a person may give the ground training for any cert or rating, but sub three says he can only endorse for certs. Makes sense to me. NOT. This is one of those items that needs to be fixed in the rewrite. :yes:
 
Is an endorsement required for the FOI exam or CFI/GI writtens?

It looks to me like an endorsement is required for the CFI written, but not the AGI or FOI writtens.

Answered my own question... in AC 61-65(E):
AC 61-65E 11/29/05
[FONT=JFILLN+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILLN+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]5. KNOWLEDGE TESTS. [/FONT][/FONT]The knowledge tests for the sport pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate, flight instructor certificate, ground instructor certificate, and ratings cover the subject areas in which aeronautical knowledge is required by part 61.

[FONT=JFILLN+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILLN+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]
a.​
[/FONT]​
[/FONT]If required by section 61.35(a)(1), an appropriate knowledge test will only be administered to an applicant who presents acceptable evidence of completion of the required training.

[FONT=JFILLN+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILLN+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]b. [/FONT][/FONT]Applicants are not required to show such evidence to take the ATP, CFI, certificated ground instructor (CGI), military competency, or foreign pilot instrument knowledge tests unless they are applying to retake a test after failing that test (per section 61.49).

 
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Are there any "ratings" beside the instrument rating that require a knowledge test and endorsement?
Not to my knowledge.
Is that part 61 NPRM out yet? If so, where?
It went out Nov 2006. Search on Docket Number FAA-2006-26661. Comments closed in May 2007. Word I have is to expect the Final Rule early next year.
 
Not for any of them, although an FOI endorsement is required for the initial CFI practical test.
As I read it... If I take my AGI along with my CFI written, and get my AGI certificate while working on the flight portion of the CFI, I won't need the FOI endorsement since I'll hold a ground instructor certificate. Correct?
 
As I read it... If I take my AGI along with my CFI written, and get my AGI certificate while working on the flight portion of the CFI, I won't need the FOI endorsement since I'll hold a ground instructor certificate. Correct?

Yes, if you take the FOI written as a requisite for AGI issuance, no endorsement is required. Further, all you need to do is take the CFI-A written and show up with your AGI to prove you took and passed the FOI.
 
As I read it... If I take my AGI along with my CFI written, and get my AGI certificate while working on the flight portion of the CFI, I won't need the FOI endorsement since I'll hold a ground instructor certificate. Correct?
Not sure what you're reading. I'm looking at 14 CFR 61.183(d):
14 CFR 61.183 said:
To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:
...
(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the fundamentals of instructing listed in §61.185 of this part appropriate to the required knowledge test;
I see no exceptions whatsoever to the FOI endorsement requirement for initial CFI issuance for anyone on any basis. Per 61.183(e), you don't need to retake the FOI test if you hold a GI certificate no matter how long ago you took the FOI test, but you do need the FOI endorsement (no expiration date) from a CFI to take your initial CFI practical test.
 
BTW, since there is no "ground training" portion of an IPC, that isn't an issue -- even a GI-I can't do that.
I misspoke. Since some or all of an IPC may be given in a flight simulation device (if the device is so authorized), a GI-I can give "ground training" for an IPC. However, this is neither a flight review nor aeronautical knowledge training, so a GI-A can't do it, even under the erroneous current rules.
 
Not sure what you're reading. I'm looking at 14 CFR 61.183(d):I see no exceptions whatsoever to the FOI endorsement requirement for initial CFI issuance for anyone on any basis. Per 61.183(e), you don't need to retake the FOI test if you hold a GI certificate no matter how long ago you took the FOI test, but you do need the FOI endorsement (no expiration date) from a CFI to take your initial CFI practical test.

OK, so I should get the endorsement from John and Martha, since I'll need it for the practical (though for practical purposes <heh heh> I would expect the CFI who did my flight training would at least satisfy himself that I knew the FOI stuff).
 
OK, so I should get the endorsement from John and Martha, since I'll need it for the practical (though for practical purposes <heh heh> I would expect the CFI who did my flight training would at least satisfy himself that I knew the FOI stuff).
It doesn't matter who gives you the 61.183(d) endorsement as long as that person holds a current, valid CFI certificate and has given you sufficient training/evaluation to be able to recommend you. If John and Martha want to do that based on your training from them (I don't know what their policy is on that), mighty fine. Otherwise, you'll probably have to get the CFI who's training you for the practical test to sign it.
 
It doesn't matter who gives you the 61.183(d) endorsement as long as that person holds a current, valid CFI certificate and has given you sufficient training/evaluation to be able to recommend you. If John and Martha want to do that based on your training from them (I don't know what their policy is on that), mighty fine. Otherwise, you'll probably have to get the CFI who's training you for the practical test to sign it.

Yah, I send in the practice tests and the Kings send me the endorsements.
 
Is an endorsement required for the FOI exam or CFI/GI writtens?

It looks to me like an endorsement is required for the CFI written, but not the AGI or FOI writtens.
Not for any of them, although an FOI endorsement is required for the initial CFI practical test.
Actually, an endorsement is required for the CFI-SP writtens, both FOI and Sport Instructor. See 61.405(a).
 
Jay - I am not sure but it's possible that the AC overrides that.
I'd be highly doubtful that it would, since advisory circulars aren't regulatory. The written rules trump everything but the law. In any event, I made sure to get the endorsement in my logbook before going to take the writtens.
 
I'd be highly doubtful that it would, since advisory circulars aren't regulatory. The written rules trump everything but the law. In any event, I made sure to get the endorsement in my logbook before going to take the writtens.

I'll take exception to your first statement, as advisory circulars often "clarify" an ambiguous reg.

However, the definitive source for this question appears to be at http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/media/testing_matrix.pdf
and it shows that indeed an endorsement is required for sport pilot instructor testing.
Acceptable Forms of Authorization for SPORT PILOT Flight Instructor exams:


Certificate of graduation or a statement of accomplishment certifying the satisfactory completion of the ground school portion of a course for the certificate or rating sought. The certificate or statement may be issued by a Federal Aviation Administration certified pilot school or an agency such as a high school, college, adult education program, Civil Air Patrol, or Reserve Officers Training Corp (ROTC) flight training school.


• Written statement or logbook endorsement from an authorized ground or flight instructor certifying that the applicant completed an applicable ground training or home study course and is prepared for the knowledge test.



• Signed letter from one of the following FAA-recognized exemption holders: Aero Sports Connection (ASC), Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA), United States Hang Gliding Association (USHGA), or United States Ultralight Association (USUA). Letter must state the following: applicant was a member of the exemption holder organization before 9/1/04; applicant was a recognized ultralight flight instructor; and category and class of aircraft applicant is qualified to fly.


(This policy expires 1/31/08 per CFR 61.431.)


• Signed letter of acceptance from the Federal Aviation Administration Light Sport Standardization Board (LSSB). A copy of the letter may be retained by the testing center.




[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]
o​
[/FONT]​
[/FONT]​
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]NOTE: The LSSB letter is good for two years from the date of the letter. [/FONT][/FONT]
 
Actually, an endorsement is required for the CFI-SP writtens, both FOI and Sport Instructor. See 61.405(a).
No endorsement is required for the FOI test. Since you may be taking that test for initial issuance of a CFI or GI certificate with any rating, not just CFI-SP, 61.405(a) doesn't create the need for an endorsement before taking the FOI written since there's no saying why you're taking it and there's no SP rating-specific FOI test. However, as with issuance of an initial CFI with any other rating, you will need that endorsement before you take the CFI-SP practical test if that is your initial CFI issuance. Jay correctly notes that for whatever reason the FAA had when they wrote the rule, unlike all the other CFI writtens, you must have an endorsement to take the CFI-SP written.

BTW, I'm reasonably sure that the apparent requirement for an endorsement for the FOI test in 61.405(a) is that whoever wrote that rule wasn't thinking the matter through.
 
No endorsement is required for the FOI test. Since you may be taking that test for initial issuance of a CFI or GI certificate with any rating, not just CFI-SP, 61.405(a) doesn't create the need for an endorsement before taking the FOI written since there's no saying why you're taking it and there's no SP rating-specific FOI test. However, as with issuance of an initial CFI with any other rating, you will need that endorsement before you take the CFI-SP practical test if that is your initial CFI issuance. Jay correctly notes that for whatever reason the FAA had when they wrote the rule, unlike all the other CFI writtens, you must have an endorsement to take the CFI-SP written.

BTW, I'm reasonably sure that the apparent requirement for an endorsement for the FOI test in 61.405(a) is that whoever wrote that rule wasn't thinking the matter through.
Maybe they'll fix it in the rewrite.
 
BTW, I'm reasonably sure that the apparent requirement for an endorsement for the FOI test in 61.405(a) is that whoever wrote that rule wasn't thinking the matter through.
Perhaps, perhaps not...but the words are there, and appear to create a requirement for a signoff. Since there's definitely a requirement for a signoff for the Sport Instructor Airplane test, it was just as easy for me to get my CFI to sign me off for the FOI test while he was at it.

BTW, where do I find the requirements for the ground instructor ratings? (Elsewhere in part 61, I assume.) Is there a reason to get one aside from piling on another rating?
 
61.211-217.

Having the certificate is a good teaching credential if you want to teach formal ground schools at local college/universities. PJ was doing this, I believe he still is. And it would allow you to give simulator instruction (get the BGI/AGI and IGI for full coverage). I know of a couple pilots who lost their medicals and now teach full-time for Airlines and Flight Safety in Sims. They actually make more than they did as line pilots, and they get a "normal" work and home life.
 
BTW, where do I find the requirements for the ground instructor ratings? (Elsewhere in part 61, I assume.) Is there a reason to get one aside from piling on another rating?

Having either AGI or IGI is one of the requirements to become a NAFI Master Instructor and to become a Gold Seal CFI.

After having learned the material for the CFI-SP knowledge test, you have learned most of the info for the AGI. You only have to study a few more items to have the AGI down cold.

I could have taken the AGI without additional studies and passed. I took the AGI test the day after I took the CFI-SP test while everything was fresh. I figured, "What the heck, I already know the material, why not just take the test?"

My AGI test seemed to be slightly to moderately more weighted towards the weight and balance and E-6B-type questions.
 
Perhaps, perhaps not...but the words are there, and appear to create a requirement for a signoff.
If you can find an FOI-SP test, I guess you'll need an endorsement. Otherwise, you're making up a problem that doesn't exist.
BTW, where do I find the requirements for the ground instructor ratings? (Elsewhere in part 61, I assume.)
Yes -- Subpart I (61.211, et seq).
Is there a reason to get one aside from piling on another rating?
Assuming you have a CFI with Airplane and Instrument ratings:
  • You can get a "gold seal" instructor certificate.
  • You can give ground training in categories and/or classes for which you don't have the rating on your pilot or CFI tickets.
 
Note first of all that the Instrument written is only for a rating, not a certificate, regardless of whether it's on a CFI, pilot, or GI certificate.

Now...

As the reg is currently written, GI's with the Advanced rating but without the Instrument rating can, per subparagraph (1), give ground training towards any rating (including any Instrument rating as well as training in a flight simulation device, which is considered "ground training" -- see 61.1(b)(8)), but subparagraph (2) only authorizes GI-A's to give endorsements for certificates, not ratings -- a distinction made in subparagraph (1) of that paragraph. Thus, as the reg is written, a GI-A can give the ground training for an IR on any certificate, but cannot sign the written test endorsement for an IR on any certificate. This was specifically addressed by the FAA in the preamble of the NPRM for the new Part 61 rewrite due to go final early next year. That rewrite will eliminate the erroneously-granted authority of GI-A's to give Instrument rating and other instrument ground training, thus ending the confusion.

(My emphasis in red)

Ron,

61.1(b)(8)) defines Ground training as training other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor. However, 61.1(b)(6) and 61.1(b)(7) state:

(6) Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

(7) Flight training device means a device that—


(i) Is a full-size replica of the instruments, equipment, panels, and controls of an aircraft, or set of aircraft, in an open flight deck area or in an enclosed cockpit, including the hardware and software for the systems installed, that is necessary to simulate the aircraft in ground and flight operations;


(ii) Need not have a force (motion) cueing or visual system; and


(iii) Has been evaluated, qualified, and approved by the Administrator.
As an AGI, are you authorized to give [instrument] training in a flight training device because the instruction is not "flight training" since it doesn't occur in an airplane? By this interpretation, training in a flight training device is not flight training, but ground training by FAR definition. This is somewhat confusing since all you have to do is slap on the word "device" to make "flight training" turn to "ground training," supplemented the fact that the phrase "flight training" is included in "flight training device."

Just trying to decipher the regs here so I know what instruction I can and can't perform as an AGI and IGI.

A safe and happy holiday to you and your family.

Thanks,
Jason
 
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As an AGI, are you authorized to give [instrument] training in a flight training device because the instruction is not "flight training" since it doesn't occur in an airplane?.
Yes -- for now.
By this interpretation, training in a flight training device is not flight training, but ground training by FAR definition
Correct, but it is by plain reading of the rules, not interpretation. However, that authority for a GI-A without the GI-Instrument rating to give instrument training in a flight simulation device (simulator, FTD, or ATD) will go away when then Part 61 rewrite becomes effective.
 
After having learned the material for the CFI-SP knowledge test, you have learned most of the info for the AGI. You only have to study a few more items to have the AGI down cold.
The BGI I can believe, but the AGI seems to require knowledge applicable to commercial and ATP ratings. Did the AGI test not cover that?

From looking at it, am I correct in assuming that I can take the test completion reports for FOI and BGI and a completed 8710-1 to my local (for small values of "local") FSDO and walk out with a temporary certificate that has the BGI rating on it?
 
Yes -- for now.
Correct, but it is by plain reading of the rules, not interpretation. However, that authority for a GI-A without the GI-Instrument rating to give instrument training in a flight simulation device (simulator, FTD, or ATD) will go away when then Part 61 rewrite becomes effective.

Ok, that makes sense. If I understand it correctly, for me it shouldn't be an issue since I hold both an AGI and IGI.
 
Jay, that's what I believe, but you may need to make an appointment. I'm taking FOI, CFI-A, and AGI on Saturday. I'll post how the process goes with the FSDO next week (assuming I pass on Saturday).

Jason, when are you going to take the -IA ride?
 
The BGI I can believe, but the AGI seems to require knowledge applicable to commercial and ATP ratings. Did the AGI test not cover that?

From looking at it, am I correct in assuming that I can take the test completion reports for FOI and BGI and a completed 8710-1 to my local (for small values of "local") FSDO and walk out with a temporary certificate that has the BGI rating on it?

Yes, but don't bother with the BGI, just get the AGI. It's the exact same written as the CFI-A and pretty straight forward if you study the Gleim. IIRC, it's only 10 more questions but it allows you more privileges than a BGI. In terms of issuance, just bring the written test results of the FOI and the AGI (or BGI if you so choose) to the FSDO with a completed 8710-1 and you'll walk out with a shiny new piece of paper. The FSDO I used didn't require an appointment, but as I understand it, some may so check with your local FSDO.
 
Yes, but don't bother with the BGI, just get the AGI. It's the exact same written as the CFI-A and pretty straight forward if you study the Gleim.
Interesting, since the AGI requirements in 61.213(a)(4)(ii) seem to say different. If it is, and since I've already passed the Sport Instructor Airplane, it shouldn't be a lot more work. I certainly won't complain. If I can get the AGI, I certainly will do so.
 
Interesting, since the AGI requirements in 61.213(a)(4)(ii) seem to say different. If it is, and since I've already passed the Sport Instructor Airplane, it shouldn't be a lot more work. I certainly won't complain. If I can get the AGI, I certainly will do so.

It's the same exam, but the AGI written is 10 questions fewer than the CFI-A. You'll notice that when you go by the Gleim knowledge test book, the title is "Flight/Ground Instructor" because the exam questions come from the same bank.
 
The BGI I can believe, but the AGI seems to require knowledge applicable to commercial and ATP ratings. Did the AGI test not cover that?

From looking at it, am I correct in assuming that I can take the test completion reports for FOI and BGI and a completed 8710-1 to my local (for small values of "local") FSDO and walk out with a temporary certificate that has the BGI rating on it?

My AGI test had maybe two or three questions pertaining to commercial/ATP Ratings. My test was a rehash of the CFI-SP test, but as I mentioned, with a few more questions, with the emphasis of those additional questions on w&b and E-6B type questions.

I brushed up with Gleim overnight for the AGI test, but I could have passed without the brushup based on my study for the CFI-SP. I scored exactly the same on both tests, with a 92% if I remember correctly.

I prearranged a meeting with an FAA Inspector who was going to be at a FAAST Safety Seminar I was going to attend and I walked away with my temporary certificate in approximately 15 minutes.

I am glad I did the two tests back to back. The work of studying was already done. It just felt like taking the same test twice.
 
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