Advice Needed (Prospective Student)

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LJS1993

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
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Riverside, California
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Display name:
LJ Savala
Okay guys first off let me say I'm not currently in training however I do have a huge interest and respect for general aviation. I give you guys major props for getting up there and major respect.
With that said I want some advice for someone who is taking an interest in attaining a private pilots license. I have spoken with some people and have received conflicting opinions. One friend who almost got his sport license but had to quit for financial reasons says it's very safe and that general aviation is very safe with the right training. Another guy, a U.S. Air Force pilot who flies cargo planes says general aviation has issues do to a lack of overall pilot preparation with some very quick solos. He was honest and didn't want to discourage me but said some of the small planes truly are not safe and coupled with a lack of training time can cause major problems. So what is it guys?
 
Like cars and motorcycles... the airplane is as safe as the pilot who flies it. Pay attention to your training, think safety first, practice, know your limits and those of your airplane.

Does your USAF buddy ever fly GA, or only for work?
 
DaleB said:
Like cars and motorcycles... the airplane is as safe as the pilot who flies it. Pay attention to your training, think safety first, practice, know your limits and those of your airplane.

Does your USAF buddy ever fly GA, or only for work?
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I didn't get a chance to ask him but it sounds like he flies strictly for work. He had some crazy stories about doing re-fueling duties over Egypt and how the Egyptian fighter pilots were crazy. I think it would be cool if he did fly general aviation and could take me up. :) The guy also stated if I indeed go through with it that saving all the money up front and training at least three days a week is the best way to go safe.
 
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Another guy, a U.S. Air Force pilot who flies cargo planes says general aviation has issues do to a lack of overall pilot preparation with some very quick solos. He was honest and didn't want to discourage me but said some of the small planes truly are not safe and coupled with a lack of training time can cause major problems.
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Doesn't sound like your USAF friend was very honest with you at all. Doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about, and frankly, he probably doesn't.

Perhaps your friend would like to see you given a two million dollars worth of training and put through the Undergraduate Pilot Training program, but who will pay for it? The taxpayer bought him his training. Who's paying for yours?

I got saddled with a B52 driver when I was going through 747 training, and the guy whined incessantly about the duration of the training. It was too short, the quality too low, he said. Each time we'd hit a new system or a new topic, he'd whine that in the USAF, they'd have spent three months studying that material. Nothing was good enough for him. It was like drinking through a firehose, he complained. Too much material, too fast.

In the end, he nearly lost his job because he couldn't keep up. As it turned out, he was the weak link, not the program. It's not the military's fault, but I do run into a lot of military pilots who have zero appreciation for the civilian side of aviation, and who tend to look down their noses at other pipelines and forms of training.

When you undertake your pilot training, it will be to known standards of training. Regulations exist which cover maintenance of the aircraft, and inspections. Regulations exist addressing what must be covered and taught, and at many schools, which regulate your progress through the program.

I fly for a living, and you will be held to the same standard of performance during a test as if I were taking the same test; everyone is held to the same standard. Records must be kept of your training which the FAA can and will see; you'll keep a logbook recording your flying and the instruction received. Typically you'll solo after 10-20 hours of flight training. Most of my students soloed around the ten to twelve hour mark, but it's not uncommon to take longer, too. The minimum to complete a private pilot certificate is 40 hours (a little less with certain programs), but the average is more; about 65 to 85.

Why not take an introductory lesson, and see what it's like, for yourself?
 
DouglasBader said:
Doesn't sound like your USAF friend was very honest with you at all. Doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about, and frankly, he probably doesn't.

Perhaps your friend would like to see you given a two million dollars worth of training and put through the Undergraduate Pilot Training program, but who will pay for it? The taxpayer bought him his training. Who's paying for yours?

I got saddled with a B52 driver when I was going through 747 training, and the guy whined incessantly about the duration of the training. It was too short, the quality too low, he said. Each time we'd hit a new system or a new topic, he'd whine that in the USAF, they'd have spent three months studying that material. Nothing was good enough for him. It was like drinking through a firehose, he complained. Too much material, too fast.

In the end, he nearly lost his job because he couldn't keep up. As it turned out, he was the weak link, not the program. It's not the military's fault, but I do run into a lot of military pilots who have zero appreciation for the civilian side of aviation, and who tend to look down their noses at other pipelines and forms of training.

When you undertake your pilot training, it will be to known standards of training. Regulations exist which cover maintenance of the aircraft, and inspections. Regulations exist addressing what must be covered and taught, and at many schools, which regulate your progress through the program.

I fly for a living, and you will be held to the same standard of performance during a test as if I were taking the same test; everyone is held to the same standard. Records must be kept of your training which the FAA can and will see; you'll keep a logbook recording your flying and the instruction received. Typically you'll solo after 10-20 hours of flight training. Most of my students soloed around the ten to twelve hour mark, but it's not uncommon to take longer, too. The minimum to complete a private pilot certificate is 40 hours (a little less with certain programs), but the average is more; about 65 to 85.

Why not take an introductory lesson, and see what it's like, for yourself?
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I see what you mean about the military looking down at general aviation. I guess it's like any other industry/hobby where certain sectors feel superior to others. I plan on perhaps taking an intro this summer and seeing how I take to actually being up in the air. Who knows maybe I'll freak out and never want to go up ever again. Either way major respect for you guys who have reached pilot status.
 
LJS1993 said:
I see what you mean about the military looking down at general aviation. I guess it's like any other industry/hobby where certain sectors feel superior to others. I plan on perhaps taking an intro this summer and seeing how I take to actually being up in the air. Who knows maybe I'll freak out and never want to go up ever again. Either way major respect for you guys who have reached pilot status.
Click to expand...

I doubt you'll freak out in a bad way. Either it will be a "gee this is neat" or "wow this is awesome" or even "hoo boy, I think I'm getting motion sick."

There are some people on this board who learned via the military - hopefully eventually some of them will provide their views.

Since the Air Force uses a different criteria for defining an accident than the FAA does for civilians, the numbers aren't easily comparable. They throw a bunch of money at their problems and have a large support system designed to minimize accidents.

As Dale has already pointed out, a good portion of GA safety is in the hands of the pilot. But it does take an unceasing effort and self-discipline to keep the chance of an accident low.
 
I plan on perhaps taking an intro this summer and seeing how I take to actually being up in the air. Who knows maybe I'll freak out and never want to go up ever again. Either way major respect for you guys who have reached pilot status.
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You won't freak out. You'll do fine, and you'll find that flying is addictive and expensive.

The hardest part of learning to fly is paying for it. Otherwise, learning to fly is about like learning to ride the proverbial bike, except without the road. There's less to hit and the aircraft is more forgiving.
 
Asking friends and aquaintances for their opinions is okay as long as you take their opinions knowing that they sometimes come with an underlying agenda.

In the end, you have to look inside and do what that little voice is telling you. Don't over-research it by building a "Why I should/Why I shouldn't" decision graph. But be warned. Flying, in my opinion, is more addictive than any drug. In fact, you only need one dose to become addicted. Take that introductory flight, and you'll become deaf to your friends' opinions.
 
LJS1993 said:
...One friend who almost got his sport license but had to quit for financial reasons says it's very safe and that general aviation is very safe with the right training. Another guy, a U.S. Air Force pilot who flies cargo planes says general aviation has issues do to a lack of overall pilot preparation with some very quick solos. He was honest and didn't want to discourage me but said some of the small planes truly are not safe and coupled with a lack of training time can cause major problems. So what is it guys?
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I think it depends on the perspective - I can see an AF guy who's had a lot of formal training think that the training a GA pilot gets is insufficient. And, maybe, he doesn't think the maintenance on GA aircraft is up to his AF standards.

The quality of the training you get depends on you.

You are the one who hires the CFI - if you don't think you are getting your money's worth, or you don't think you are getting the quality, professional training you deserve then you have to find someone else. And it's up to your attitude - don't settle for "good enough", but remember that being perfect isn't possible either.

Try to schedule 3 flights a week and hope for 2. There will be days the weather is bad, there will be days the plane is out for an oil change or other maintenance, and there will be days when you will get a feeling that you just shouldn't fly.

Enjoy!
 
LJS1993 said:
I didn't get a chance to ask him but it sounds like he flies strictly for work. He had some crazy stories about doing re-fueling duties over Egypt and how the Egyptian fighter pilots were crazy. I think it would be cool if he did fly general aviation and could take me up. :) The guy also stated if I indeed go through with it that saving all the money up front and training at least three days a week is the best way to go safe.
Click to expand...
Your AF friend did give you a bit of good advice: Save all the money up front for training and train at least three days a week. Assuming you will have bad weather one or two days a week, be ready to schedule 4-5 days.

Also, you can start hitting the books now. Half the training effort is mental. Here is a good place to start: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/
Then read: http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/
In fact, browse through that entire "Handbooks and Manuals" section for interesting stuff.

Once you figure you already have it down cold, log in to the free Study Buddy for some practice tests here: http://www.sportys.com/studybuddy
 
Jim Logajan said:
I doubt you'll freak out in a bad way. Either it will be a "gee this is neat" or "wow this is awesome" or even "hoo boy, I think I'm getting motion sick."

There are some people on this board who learned via the military - hopefully eventually some of them will provide their views.

Since the Air Force uses a different criteria for defining an accident than the FAA does for civilians, the numbers aren't easily comparable. They throw a bunch of money at their problems and have a large support system designed to minimize accidents.

As Dale has already pointed out, a good portion of GA safety is in the hands of the pilot. But it does take an unceasing effort and self-discipline to keep the chance of an accident low.
Click to expand...

The response in bold is what I'm hoping for when the time comes. :) I also know that if I get up there and love it I want to be safe, safe, safe, and even more safe in terms of my skills and attitude as a pilot.
 
Listen to Auntie. If you want to start flying you can learn a LOT ahead of time. In fact, everything you need to know for the knowledge test is available, on line, for free, from the FAA (and much of it and some other sources as well). If you go into your flight training already understanding the aerodynamics, aircraft systems, instruments, etc. you'll be way ahead.

And yeah -- welcome to POA. :)
 
One thing to keep in mind when talking to a military pilot about civilian training is that they are looking at flying from the perspective that they need to be able to overcome any condition they meet to accomplish their mission. They are mission driven. In my career as an active duty pilot I often launched into weather conditions that were at the very limit of the aircraft's capabilities. It was my job and I accepted the risks understanding that the mission was vital to someone else's survival. Recreational pilots have a totally different mind set. Each is well suited for the environment they operate in, but neither is the only way. A private pilot never has to launch. You will learn to use your training and judgement to decide when it is safe to fly, and what you and your aircraft are capable of. GA is as safe as our technology can make it as long as the human at the controls exercises sound judgment and understands the limitations of themselves and their craft.
 
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LJS1993 said:
Okay guys first off let me say I'm not currently in training however I do have a huge interest and respect for general aviation. I give you guys major props for getting up there and major respect.
With that said I want some advice for someone who is taking an interest in attaining a private pilots license. I have spoken with some people and have received conflicting opinions. One friend who almost got his sport license but had to quit for financial reasons says it's very safe and that general aviation is very safe with the right training. Another guy, a U.S. Air Force pilot who flies cargo planes says general aviation has issues do to a lack of overall pilot preparation with some very quick solos. He was honest and didn't want to discourage me but said some of the small planes truly are not safe and coupled with a lack of training time can cause major problems. So what is it guys?
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Tell the AirForce weenie to stuff it. I swear to god the USAF has a knack for finding the biggest tools. I'm biased here as I'm currently dealing with an AirForce pilot at work. He tells his Captains how weak they are how wonderful he is. He calls maintenance and writes up mechanical issues without even telling the Captain about it. I've not flown with him but have to deal with his crap in professional standards.

My observation is this. Pricks are everywhere. With that said, the USAF and USN are different in one major aspect. The USAF mission is to fly bombers over the pole and drop nukes on Russia. For that you need a procedures manual and everything a USAF pilot does is BY THE BOOK. No exceptions. They love their precious book. The USN has a book too. But their mission is air superiority and in a dog fight sometimes the book doesn't cover what needs to be done. USN pilots are much more seat of the pants kind of guys. They have a book, but realize that sometimes you just have to do some of that pilot ****.

And this, I think, works it's way into the different mind sets of the pilots from each branch of Military. End result is USAF guys who fly the book great but are tough to get along with as they think they are sky gods because they flew the whole flight to perfect standards.

Got a little carried away there...sorry. Don't listen to your AirForce buddy. That's my advice.
 
The Air Force fellow has a valid point. Statistically, GA is quite dangerous, on a par with motorcycles.

That said, I've been riding bikes since the breakup of Pangea, and I'm still here to talk about it. There are actions that one can take to ameliorate the danger. Plenty of old guys who've been flying forever.
 
For "human interest balance", the most recent USAF Distinguished Flying Cross award recipient and one of only a few who've received the award twice, owns and operates his own Turbo Arrow and is a huge GA proponent.

Darren is also an all around nice guy. He even agreed to an interview on our podcast once. Very proud to have "met" him even if it was only via Skype.

There's good folk and bad folk everywhere.

I wouldn't burn that bridge with your AF buddy. If you can meet qualifications and fly Uncle Sams jets on our dime, why not?

His opinion of GA may be completely wrong, but if he's got inside track info on how to stuff your carcass into an ejection seat, his GA opinions are easy to ignore with the "smile and nod" method. ;)

Heck, even flying tankers. Better than ground-pounding for a living.

The real risk in joining the military to fly these days is that you'll pass all the tests, accomplish everything required, and be remotely commanding a UAV with a joystick. Still rewarding, but not really flying.
 
LJS1993 said:
I didn't get a chance to ask him but it sounds like he flies strictly for work. He had some crazy stories about doing re-fueling duties over Egypt and how the Egyptian fighter pilots were crazy. I think it would be cool if he did fly general aviation and could take me up. :) The guy also stated if I indeed go through with it that saving all the money up front and training at least three days a week is the best way to go safe.
Click to expand...

Have you ever had a pilot "take you up" in a small GA plane? Where are you located? If you spend time here and get to know everyone, there may be a pilot in your area with an extra seat.
 
PS - Nobody ever "took me up" during my training (my instructor was very strict) but I will say that the online / phone support of these and other pilots kept me on track and got me through my checkride. Welcome to POA you will enjoy your time here.
 
The GA airplanes (what you'll learn in and fly - 172's, Piper Cherokees) are tough as nails, they are easy to fly and are dead nuts reliable. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Yes, the GA accident rate is not that good, its somewhere between motorcycle riding and recreational boating. However unlike motorcycle riding (for example) you are not at significant risk of getting wiped out by a careless bozo driver. The reality is that 80-90 percent of GA accidents are the result of pilot error and with only a few exceptions, its some pretty dumb decisions or mistakes that are completely preventable.

The good news is that training (even flying solo as a student pilot) is pretty safe. Just remember to use your head, stay current and approach each flight professionally after you get that lifetime license that allows you to fly an airplane across the country, to any airport and in all kinds of weather...

You don't necessarily have to do three flights a week, though it would be great, many can't afford it or have time for that. I'm willing to bet most on here (as I did) got their license with only 1-2 lessons per week.

Its best to pay as you go along, but make sure you can afford (and have time) to take at least one lesson a week at a minimum. Costs vary, but at my flight school that was about $500 a month. And you'll want to fly a couple hours a month to stay current, but remember once you are a private pilot you can share costs with non pilot passengers.
 
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LJS1993 said:
Okay guys first off let me say I'm not currently in training however I do have a huge interest and respect for general aviation. I give you guys major props for getting up there and major respect.
With that said I want some advice for someone who is taking an interest in attaining a private pilots license. I have spoken with some people and have received conflicting opinions. One friend who almost got his sport license but had to quit for financial reasons says it's very safe and that general aviation is very safe with the right training. Another guy, a U.S. Air Force pilot who flies cargo planes says general aviation has issues do to a lack of overall pilot preparation with some very quick solos. He was honest and didn't want to discourage me but said some of the small planes truly are not safe and coupled with a lack of training time can cause major problems. So what is it guys?
Click to expand...

I found a local airport that had an intro flight for $49. My suggestion to you is to go out and pay for one intro flight first to see what happens. They should charge between $50 - $200 for this, and it will probably be a flat rate. Some places don't do intro flights, only first lessons. I think intro flights are usually a "good deal" since they are trying to get people interested in training and often go up in the air a few minutes longer than advertised. My flight was at least an hour, if not longer.
 
LJS1993 said:
Okay guys first off let me say I'm not currently in training however I do have a huge interest and respect for general aviation. I give you guys major props for getting up there and major respect.
With that said I want some advice for someone who is taking an interest in attaining a private pilots license. I have spoken with some people and have received conflicting opinions. One friend who almost got his sport license but had to quit for financial reasons says it's very safe and that general aviation is very safe with the right training. Another guy, a U.S. Air Force pilot who flies cargo planes says general aviation has issues do to a lack of overall pilot preparation with some very quick solos. He was honest and didn't want to discourage me but said some of the small planes truly are not safe and coupled with a lack of training time can cause major problems. So what is it guys?
Click to expand...

Small airplanes are safe enough but if you are careless and/or stupid, they can bite. You can say the same about skiiing. Or most other things that get you off the couch :wink2:
 
denverpilot said:
For "human interest balance", the most recent USAF Distinguished Flying Cross award recipient and one of only a few who've received the award twice, owns and operates his own Turbo Arrow and is a huge GA proponent.

Darren is also an all around nice guy. He even agreed to an interview on our podcast once. Very proud to have "met" him even if it was only via Skype.

There's good folk and bad folk everywhere.

I wouldn't burn that bridge with your AF buddy. If you can meet qualifications and fly Uncle Sams jets on our dime, why not?

His opinion of GA may be completely wrong, but if he's got inside track info on how to stuff your carcass into an ejection seat, his GA opinions are easy to ignore with the "smile and nod" method. ;)

Heck, even flying tankers. Better than ground-pounding for a living.

The real risk in joining the military to fly these days is that you'll pass all the tests, accomplish everything required, and be remotely commanding a UAV with a joystick. Still rewarding, but not really flying.
Click to expand...

Yes I'll definitely not burn any bridges with him since he probably has some good knowledge when it comes to actually flying a plane. I'm basically going to pick his mind now and then about flying and learn from some of his experiences.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Have you ever had a pilot "take you up" in a small GA plane? Where are you located? If you spend time here and get to know everyone, there may be a pilot in your area with an extra seat.
Click to expand...

I'm located in the Riverside/Inland Empire region of Southern California. A friend of mine did most of his training out of Riverside but failed his check ride and never looked back after the real estate industry tanked.
 
dell30rb said:
The GA airplanes (what you'll learn in and fly - 172's, Piper Cherokees) are tough as nails, they are easy to fly and are dead nuts reliable. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Yes, the GA accident rate is not that good, its somewhere between motorcycle riding and recreational boating. However unlike motorcycle riding (for example) you are not at significant risk of getting wiped out by a careless bozo driver. The reality is that 80-90 percent of GA accidents are the result of pilot error and with only a few exceptions, its some pretty dumb decisions or mistakes that are completely preventable.

The good news is that training (even flying solo as a student pilot) is pretty safe. Just remember to use your head, stay current and approach each flight professionally after you get that lifetime license that allows you to fly an airplane across the country, to any airport and in all kinds of weather...

You don't necessarily have to do three flights a week, though it would be great, many can't afford it or have time for that. I'm willing to bet most on here (as I did) got their license with only 1-2 lessons per week.

Its best to pay as you go along, but make sure you can afford (and have time) to take at least one lesson a week at a minimum. Costs vary, but at my flight school that was about $500 a month. And you'll want to fly a couple hours a month to stay current, but remember once you are a private pilot you can share costs with non pilot passengers.
Click to expand...

Well the accident rate is definitely something I don't like but on the same token driving a car these days is pretty harrowing considering the number of un-licensed and un-insured motorists out there. Whenever the accident rate issue arises I remind myself of that fact.
 
LJS1993 said:
I'm located in the Riverside/Inland Empire region of Southern California. A friend of mine did most of his training out of Riverside but failed his check ride and never looked back after the real estate industry tanked.
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Calling all Southern California pilots (ok, there aren't that many of them).
 
And the accident rate for INSTRUCTIONAL flying is quite good compared to the rest. Put another way, most GA pilots don't come to harm while they are learning to fly.
They come to harm when they STOP learning to fly.

Ask most of the GA pilots here and you'll hear over and over that they never stop learning while they're flying.

GA flight safety is as much about the pilot's attitude and philosophical approach to flying as it is about how to manipulate the controls of the airplane.

My daughter turns nine tomorrow. She's flown with me many times, and I'd no qualms at all about her taking flight lessons with any of the flight schools in my area when she gets older.

PS - welcome to POA. I'm late saying hello but at least I beat Tracey.
 
LJS1993 said:
I didn't get a chance to ask him but it sounds like he flies strictly for work. He had some crazy stories about doing re-fueling duties over Egypt and how the Egyptian fighter pilots were crazy. I think it would be cool if he did fly general aviation and could take me up. :) The guy also stated if I indeed go through with it that saving all the money up front and training at least three days a week is the best way to go safe.
Click to expand...


Yes and if he DID fly GA, he would know something of what he speaks.
 
LJS1993 said:
I'm located in the Riverside/Inland Empire region of Southern California. A friend of mine did most of his training out of Riverside but failed his check ride and never looked back after the real estate industry tanked.
Click to expand...

If he is that far along, when things get better encourage your friend to get back up on the horse. He is right there. It is a shame to have had that much training to walk away permanently. I have a friend who went to an aviation college, and received his PP, Instrument, Commercial, Multi Engine. Not sure if he ever received is CFI or CFII. But, he has not flown in many years. He said when I get my license he will fly with me, and who knows? Maybe, reignite the passion. I hope so.

Welcome to the site. I am currently a Sport Pilot. It has it's restrictions. I do plan to obtain my Private. I have decided Sport Pilot first, in case anything unknown comes up to prevent me from being able to afford my PPL. I will still be able to fly without an instructor.

Feel free to ask Questions.
 
TMetzinger said:
And the accident rate for INSTRUCTIONAL flying is quite good compared to the rest. Put another way, most GA pilots don't come to harm while they are learning to fly.
They come to harm when they STOP learning to fly.

Ask most of the GA pilots here and you'll hear over and over that they never stop learning while they're flying.

GA flight safety is as much about the pilot's attitude and philosophical approach to flying as it is about how to manipulate the controls of the airplane.

My daughter turns nine tomorrow. She's flown with me many times, and I'd no qualms at all about her taking flight lessons with any of the flight schools in my area when she gets older.

PS - welcome to POA. I'm late saying hello but at least I beat Tracey.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome. Is sounds like being careful, smart, and always respecting your aircraft is the key to a safe experience.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
If he is that far along, when things get better encourage your friend to get back up on the horse. He is right there. It is a shame to have had that much training to walk away permanently. I have a friend who went to an aviation college, and received his PP, Instrument, Commercial, Multi Engine. Not sure if he ever received is CFI or CFII. But, he has not flown in many years. He said when I get my license he will fly with me, and who knows? Maybe, reignite the passion. I hope so.

Welcome to the site. I am currently a Sport Pilot. It has it's restrictions. I do plan to obtain my Private. I have decided Sport Pilot first, in case anything unknown comes up to prevent me from being able to afford my PPL. I will still be able to fly without an instructor.

Feel free to ask Questions.
Click to expand...

You know the funniest thing is he's REALLY itching to get back into it since I started showing an interest. In fact I seem to make his addiction worse since I am continually talking about aircraft I have spotted lately or about my flight simulator experiences. He says he failed his check ride on a technicality that his instructor never once discussed with him.
 
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