ADS-B editorial from OSH and Bad Elf unit review

[denverpilot]

Just passing along...

I like the LCD status on the Bad Elf. Shame that Foreflight isn't supporting that unit (yet?).

Never liked (when playing with friend's external GPSs on iPad) that all they had for status was Das Blinkenlights and the need to switch to a proprietary App from whatever you were doing to see GPS constellation status, reception level/quality and the like.

http://www.mygoflight.com/aviationblog#ADSB

 

[DaytonaLynn]

I am a new pilot, so I am confused by your post. Are you saying that bad elf does not work with Foreflight. I am considering bad elf or Dual.Thanks
Lynn

 

[jason]

I am a new pilot, so I am confused by your post. Are you saying that bad elf does not work with Foreflight. I am considering bad elf or Dual.Thanks
Lynn

The GPS portion of the Bad Elf will work with Foreflight but the ADS-B will not. For ADS-B and Foreflight you'll need to buy the Stratus.

 

[jjflys]

I have the Bad Elf Pro and it works perfectly with Foreflight. Having the LCD is also a huge plus!

I don't like Foreflight's proprietary stance on ADS-B and only allowing Stratus receivers. I think this will potentially bite them in the ass down the road. I was impressed with the Clarity receivers with AHRS and once we get ADS-B coverage in Denver I may have to spring for one of those (and probably switch to WingX at the same time).

 

[denverpilot]

I'm also not impressed with their single-sourced receiver decision and also WILL be buying something.

Just waiting on Rocky Mountain coverage (or reasonable partial coverage) like you.

It could be the end of a beautiful friendship, Foreflight. Get over your first girlfriend and move on.

 

[JGoodish]

I have the Bad Elf Pro and it works perfectly with Foreflight. Having the LCD is also a huge plus!

I don't like Foreflight's proprietary stance on ADS-B and only allowing Stratus receivers. I think this will potentially bite them in the ass down the road. I was impressed with the Clarity receivers with AHRS and once we get ADS-B coverage in Denver I may have to spring for one of those (and probably switch to WingX at the same time).

It's really no different than Garmin Pilot being married to the GDL39, or buying a SkyRadar or Clarity and essentially being married to WingX. There are some other pluses to ForeFlight/Stratus, such as more control and visibility into the device itself.

WingX as an application is good for VFR navigation, but less so for IFR and flight planning. There is no SID or STAR support in flight plan routing. There is no Internet weather display on the map, and the DUATS and NWS-sourced images that are available aren't even close to comparable with what ForeFlight provides. I've found errors in magnetic deviation correction, density altitude calculation, inconsistent UI behavior, and other annoyances which do not exist in ForeFlight. However, the biggest annoyance with WingX is the lousy support.

WingX isn't a bad application, but the ADS-B In hardware all pretty much does the same thing. In my opinion, the application decision is far, far more important, because that's what actually provides the functionality. Choose the application and then choose the hardware.


JKG

 

[snoboy]

It's really no different than Garmin Pilot being married to the GDL39, or buying a SkyRadar or Clarity and essentially being married to WingX. There are some other pluses to ForeFlight/Stratus, such as more control and visibility into the device itself.

WingX as an application is good for VFR navigation, but less so for IFR and flight planning. There is no SID or STAR support in flight plan routing. There is no Internet weather display on the map, and the DUATS and NWS-sourced images that are available aren't even close to comparable with what ForeFlight provides. I've found errors in magnetic deviation correction, density altitude calculation, inconsistent UI behavior, and other annoyances which do not exist in ForeFlight. However, the biggest annoyance with WingX is the lousy support.

WingX isn't a bad application, but the ADS-B In hardware all pretty much does the same thing. In my opinion, the application decision is far, far more important, because that's what actually provides the functionality. Choose the application and then choose the hardware.


JKG

I was eyeing the WingX Pro7 app. is this the version you're referring to?

 

[JGoodish]

I was eyeing the WingX Pro7 app. is this the version you're referring to?

Yes. After a year of ForeFlight, I did an extensive evaluation of WingX and Garmin Pilot before I committed to another year of ForeFlight.

Basically, I liked WingX slightly better as a navigation device and for data access in flight, although some of my gripes with ForeFlight in this area [they tell me] are resolved in the next update. ForeFlight is a much better weather/planning/data reference application, with more basic navigation capabilities. However, after talking with ForeFlight, I do have confidence that they are working to beef up the navigation capabilities, but doing so more methodically to ensure that those features are implemented well and are presented in an intuitive way.

In WingX, I also liked the airspace and identifier overlay, runway extensions, track up capability and the data display all in one place (at the top) of the screen. I didn't like the glacially S-L-O-W map redraw on the iPad 3, the fact that your course disappears and is then redrawn when changing zoom levels (or adding/removing map overlays), the fact that pending TFRs aren't always shown (and aren't differentiated from active ones), the lack of any warnings for terrain/obstacles, the slightly inaccurate SUA depictions, the slightly inaccurate magnetic variation and density altitude calculations, the lower-resolution approach charts (though still functional), the "intelligent" waypoint insertion that sometimes got the sequencing wrong, the lousy victor airways support (it's there, but not well implemented), the lack of SID/STAR support in routes, and I especially didn't like the lack of Internet weather overlay on the map screen. WingX will overlay ADS-B weather on the map screen, but not Internet weather. There is also no option to interface with XM, if that's your preference.

In the end, I decided that the more polished Foreflight with weather that could seamlessly transition from ground to air ( Internet to ADS-B ) was the winner for me. The excellent support from ForeFlight, and the relatively weak support from WingX, sealed the deal for me. I did ask WingX about Internet weather overlay, and the response was that they have no plans to add it at this time. I suspect that WingX does not have a contracted Internet weather provider, as does ForeFlight, and thus do not have access to the raw data required to overlay weather on the moving map.

Garmin Pilot was a pretty good marriage of the two, except for the fact that it was loaded with glaring bugs and data omissions, and I'm not convinced that Garmin wants to turn it into a full-blown competitor with their handheld units.


JKG

 

[John221us]

Stratus/Foreflight does not provide any traffic information (I have heard that the Stratus has the capability, but it is intentionally disabled). My understanding is that this is due to the unreliability without ADS-B Out to "wake up" the FAA traffic transmitter. Obviously this was a liability decision, but I think a poor one. I would rather be given the choice on whether or not to view traffic, if available, like the other manufacturers have chosen to do.

 

[Piloto]

Stratus/Foreflight does not provide any traffic information (I have heard that the Stratus has the capability, but it is intentionally disabled). My understanding is that this is due to the unreliability without ADS-B Out to "wake up" the FAA traffic transmitter. Obviously this was a liability decision, but I think a poor one. I would rather be given the choice on whether or not to view traffic, if available, like the other manufacturers have chosen to do.

I think Stratus/Foreflight did the right decision. Better to have no data than bad data. It could have led the pilot to believe there was no traffic nearby or have him looking in the wrong direction or changing to an unsafe altitude. By not having traffic data the pilot will be motivated to do his own visual scan.

José

 

[John Collins]

Stratus/Foreflight does not provide any traffic information (I have heard that the Stratus has the capability, but it is intentionally disabled). My understanding is that this is due to the unreliability without ADS-B Out to "wake up" the FAA traffic transmitter. Obviously this was a liability decision, but I think a poor one. I would rather be given the choice on whether or not to view traffic, if available, like the other manufacturers have chosen to do.

For the current time, I think the Foreflight is a reasonable stance as the traffic you need to see is mostly missing. I would be surprised if 2% of the traffic that is a collision threat can be detected at this point in time. You will see a fair amount of traffic, but mostly from high flying airliners that are not relevant to your situation. If you were to install an ADSB-Out capability in your aircraft, the traffic could be relevant, but ADSB Out that has the capability to satisfy the 2020 rule won't start to be available until later this year or early next year. At that point, a Foreflight traffic solution begins to make sense.

 

[John221us]

For the current time, I think the Foreflight is a reasonable stance as the traffic you need to see is mostly missing. I would be surprised if 2% of the traffic that is a collision threat can be detected at this point in time. You will see a fair amount of traffic, but mostly from high flying airliners that are not relevant to your situation. If you were to install an ADSB-Out capability in your aircraft, the traffic could be relevant, but ADSB Out that has the capability to satisfy the 2020 rule won't start to be available until later this year or early next year. At that point, a Foreflight traffic solution begins to make sense.

I would hate to buy something that seems limited and regret the purchase in a few months. Before I drop $800 on an ADS-B receiver, it looks like I am stuck waiting to see what shakes out at the end of year. I love ForeFlight. If they had just chosen a more open platform and/or gave me the choice to disable traffic (I live in an area with great ADS-B coverage and lots of commercial traffic), I would have gone ahead and bought early. Now it looks like if I buy Stratus, I may regret it. I will wait and see if WingX improves or maybe Garmin (but that is proprietary too, but at least it can interface with a Garmin GPS, as well).

 

[John Collins]

I would hate to buy something that seems limited and regret the purchase in a few months. Before I drop $800 on an ADS-B receiver, it looks like I am stuck waiting to see what shakes out at the end of year. I love ForeFlight. If they had just chosen a more open platform and/or gave me the choice to disable traffic (I live in an area with great ADS-B coverage and lots of commercial traffic), I would have gone ahead and bought early. Now it looks like if I buy Stratus, I may regret it. I will wait and see if WingX improves or maybe Garmin (but that is proprietary too, but at least it can interface with a Garmin GPS, as well).

What do you expect to get from ADSB traffic capability on your portable receiver? Do you plan on installing an ADSB-Out capability, either 1090ES or UAT in the near future?

If you don't plan on installing ADSB-Out capability and all you expect on your portable ADSB receiver regarding traffic is a curiosity to be able to monitor Commercial traffic that is not a threat to you, then by all means you will be happy with one of the solutions that currently will provide this traffic capability. If you intend to use it as a serious tool to help you avoid the vast majority of GA traffic, you will disappointed or even worse, misled.

If you do plan on installing ADSB-Out capability, then the portable traffic can be used as a serious tool to help you avoid the majority of GA traffic. Even in this case, it is important to understand the limitations of the ADSB TISB service.

 

[JGoodish]

I would hate to buy something that seems limited and regret the purchase in a few months. Before I drop $800 on an ADS-B receiver, it looks like I am stuck waiting to see what shakes out at the end of year. I love ForeFlight. If they had just chosen a more open platform and/or gave me the choice to disable traffic (I live in an area with great ADS-B coverage and lots of commercial traffic), I would have gone ahead and bought early. Now it looks like if I buy Stratus, I may regret it. I will wait and see if WingX improves or maybe Garmin (but that is proprietary too, but at least it can interface with a Garmin GPS, as well).

I suspect that ForeFlight will eventually support traffic display using Stratus, as they have already stated that Stratus receives traffic data from the ground stations. But, as John has repeatedly mentioned, if you aren't transmitting ADS-B Out then you will have a very skewed and inconsistent picture and, what's worse, won't necessarily know how skewed or inconsistent it is.

I suspect that the other factor impacting ForeFlight's decision to not display traffic at this point is the big ADS-B hole that still exists in the middle of the country, though I realize that the hole is being slowly filled in.

I really think that folks are making way too much of the traffic display. Unless you plan to be heads-down inside the aircraft, your best traffic avoidance strategy is to look out the window. Apps that display traffic (or terrain, or obstacles) without audible warnings will require heads-down attention in order to be useful for collision avoidance, and this is perhaps most true with regards to conflicting air traffic. To my knowledge, neither Garmin Pilot nor WingX provide any conflict warnings whatsoever. Hopefully, when ForeFlight does implement traffic display, they will do it in a way that truely enhances flight safety as opposed to providing just another novelty feature.


JKG

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hopefully, when ForeFlight does implement traffic display, they will do it in a way that truely enhances flight safety as opposed to providing just another novelty feature.

Bingo.

 

[John Collins]

Great example. I was planning on doing the same with TIS verses the GDL39.

I don't have a problem with portable display of ADSB traffic if and this is a big if, the aircraft is equipped with ADSB Out.

 

[Piloto]

Excellent comparison Ken. Thanks for the picture.

José

 

[JGoodish]

Great example. I was planning on doing the same with TIS verses the GDL39.

I don't have a problem with portable display of ADSB traffic if and this is a big if, the aircraft is equipped with ADSB Out.

Even if it is, you only get the traffic picture where there are ground stations to transmit it. Otherwise, you only get the air-to-air traffic on 1090, which in the long run I suppose will provide everyone with support for "active" traffic.

However, it would seem that there are going to be limitations until everyone is outfitted for ADS-B Out.


JKG

 

[tonycondon]

Well the ipad isn't distracting you with targets that aren't going to hit you anyway...

Bingo.

BTW, here's why portable ADS-B traffic is a bad idea:

On the left, an active traffic system displayed on a Garmin 750. On the right, a GDL-39's traffic output displayed on an iPad. See the problem?

 

[John Collins]

Even if it is, you only get the traffic picture where there are ground stations to transmit it. Otherwise, you only get the air-to-air traffic on 1090, which in the long run I suppose will provide everyone with support for "active" traffic.

However, it would seem that there are going to be limitations until everyone is outfitted for ADS-B Out.


JKG

That is true, but coverage of GBT covers a lot more airspace than available with Mode S TIS. By the end of next year, the initial GBT installations is scheduled to be completed. Last I checked, there are 400 of the just under 800 GBT installed. All electronic systems to point out traffic have limitations, with TCAS better than TCAD better than ADSB better than Mode S TIS. None of the systems will point out an airplane or glider without an installed or operating transponder.