Additional Ratings

Owenrg

Owenrg

Filing Flight Plan
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Jul 31, 2010
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Tulsa OK
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Owenrg
I'm a newly minted CFI and a lot of my buddies now want their high performance and tail dragger ratings. I don't have access to a TW airplane but i do have access to a HP plane.

Where i run into issues is that i've grown up flying with my dad in a C210 so high performance planes aren't anything new to me and i've just kind of picked up the concepts of how to deal with it. The regs only say "ground and flight instruction" with no real guide lines... so what do you suggest i cover during the ground and flight time? I asked an FAA examiner what she suggested and she said review a lot of the things you would on a complex rating.

If you have any suggestions for any of the additional ratings (complex, high altitude, high performance or tail dragger) i'd love to hear it.

Thanks for the help!
 
Owenrg said:
I'm a newly minted CFI and a lot of my buddies now want their high performance and tail dragger ratings. I don't have access to a TW airplane but i do have access to a HP plane.

Where i run into issues is that i've grown up flying with my dad in a C210 so high performance planes aren't anything new to me and i've just kind of picked up the concepts of how to deal with it. The regs only say "ground and flight instruction" with no real guide lines... so what do you suggest i cover during the ground and flight time? I asked an FAA examiner what she suggested and she said review a lot of the things you would on a complex rating.

If you have any suggestions for any of the additional ratings (complex, high altitude, high performance or tail dragger) i'd love to hear it.

Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...

I would focus on..-
-running that engine the right way
-decents and energy managment
-practical systems review
-be a hard a$$ on emergency procedures
-any holes in thier swing will show up faster, so get there legs up under them flying a faster plane...but still emphasize and airplanes and airplane.

have them read the POH some time before you start training. I do this for all my Bonanza newbies and it makes a huge difference.
 
I saw this posted in another thread in this forums. It would be really nice if we had things like this for the additional ratings.

Clay: Thanks for the tips. I'm flying a 1973 Cherokee (or Charger or Dakota, i've heard everyone call it something different. the weight and balance info has it as a PA-28-235 Cherokee).

I have a bunch of stuff on top of decent calculation and stuff like that. I guess most of flying a HP plane is the increased speed of things.
 
First, you have to quit calling endorsements "ratings" or your students will think that there is a check ride with a DE in their future. Remember the part about when hearing it from a CFI, they will give it extra weight and believe it to be true.

Next, make them own a copy of the training aircraft POH. It's a great habit for students to get into and they don't cost much. Instill the idea that although they are moving into a specific aircraft, the systems, maneuvers, and emergency procedures will be different for other makes & models and it is imperative to know the differences.

Systems knowledge will give insight and order to many emergency procedures. As the airplanes they fly become more complicated, strict adherence to the checklist is a must. Always expect that your student will move onward and upward to a faster and more complicated airplane and that you won't be there when he does. Instruct with that in mind.

I agree with Clay:

Systems knowledge and troubleshooting
Emergency procedures, the why and the how
Proper checklist usage
Speed management and three dimensional planning

Engine management: Lots to learn there. proper procedures, the how and why of carburated vs fuel injected, Lycoming vs Continental fuel injection systems, turbos, cowl flaps, hot starts, proper leaning, limited MP and or RPM ranges for different modes of flight... engines and owners pocketbooks do not like ham handed operators.

And typically more extensive instrumentation and nav/com equipment for which they will need to RTFM.

Oh... and it sounds silly but teach them to taxi on the centerline... I see many pilots "graduate" to a larger airplane and forget all about how to taxi. Someday a nice big snowbank will jump up and bite their wingtip when they aren't looking.

Have fun! Remember, they already know how to fly.
 
Jim Burns said:
First, you have to quit calling endorsements "ratings" or your students will think that there is a check ride with a DE in their future. Remember the part about when hearing it from a CFI, they will give it extra weight and believe it to be true.
Click to expand...

Here i am always talking about using the proper phrases and terms for things... blew that one! When I read this I though, "really?" I re-read my post and I was amazed how badly a screwed that one up! haha. Thanks for the correction, greatly appreciated!

Oh and thanks for the other tips too ;)
 
Owenrg said:
I'm flying a 1973 Cherokee (or Charger or Dakota, i've heard everyone call it something different. the weight and balance info has it as a PA-28-235 Cherokee).
Click to expand...

As I understand the somewhat directionless naming history of the Cherokee:

235 w/Hershey bar is a 235 Cherokee
235 w/Hershey bar, long fuselage and 1973 is Charger
235 w/Hershey bar, long fuselage and post 1973 (or so) is Pathfinder
236 or 201T (taper wing) is Dakota - the 201T was TurboDakota until a SB removed the "Turbo" from the name. I've ignored the SB and no one has filled it with Jet A yet.:rolleyes2:
 
Clark1961 said:
235 w/Hershey bar, long fuselage and 1973 is Charger
Click to expand...

How do i know if it's the long fuselage or not? I do not know much about the PA-28's and am learning as much as i can. It does have the Hershey bar wing and the o-540 at 235 (of course).

Thanks.
 
The long Fuse supposedly has some leg room for the back seat passengers. The short Fuse doesn't. Sorta hard to tell from my perspective as I consider the leg room minimal even in the Dakota.

I think the stab was larger on the long Fuse also but I'm not certain. There's about a two ft difference in length between the short and long stab so it's fairly easy to identify. I wish I knew exactly when they went to the big stab. I'm sure someone around here knows.
 
I'm fairly sure it's the longer fuselage. I have had people in the back and they are comfortable... or as comfortable as you can be in the back of a small 4 place plane ;)

I was looking at the W&B charts of this "Charger" and i put myself, 3 other passengers at 180lbs, full fuel and 120lbs of baggage and was still within limits. I'm impressed with it!
 
Jim Burns said:
Oh... and it sounds silly but teach them to taxi on the centerline... I see many pilots "graduate" to a larger airplane and forget all about how to taxi.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
nothing speaks louder of those just off training wheels than riding the brakes and a lack of "centerline pride"
 
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In addition to what has already been said,
Teach them to do the PTS Manuevers to the PTS Standard, emphasing short and Soft feild and emergency techniques. If they can do these to standard then normal operations should not be an issue.

Then you can work on having them calculate and demonstrate take off and landing distances and repeatablity of them. You might be surprised what you learn as well.

Insurance often required about 5 hrs in type, so use it well.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Owenrg said:
I'm fairly sure it's the longer fuselage. I have had people in the back and they are comfortable... or as comfortable as you can be in the back of a small 4 place plane ;)

I was looking at the W&B charts of this "Charger" and i put myself, 3 other passengers at 180lbs, full fuel and 120lbs of baggage and was still within limits. I'm impressed with it!
Click to expand...

My very first flying job was for a land survey company that had a pathfinder 235 and a saratoga. It will haul a bathtub if you can make it fit. I like how they fly nice and heavy..very honest airplane.
 
Owenrg said:
I'm a newly minted CFI and a lot of my buddies now want their high performance and tail dragger ratings. I don't have access to a TW airplane but i do have access to a HP plane.

If you have any suggestions for any of the additional ratings (complex, high altitude, high performance or tail dragger) i'd love to hear it.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you know this, but.... a passed CFI checkride -- while a great accomplishment! -- doesn't automatically bestow expertise in every airplane you'll encounter.

If you don't have lots of TW time -- get a decent amount of time in varying conditions before you start providing dual endorsements.

HP and Complex usually isn't a huge transition, but I've found I learn plenty from the owners i fly with. I let them teach me all about their airplanes -- and I've been fortunate to fly in some nice ones!

The pilots who can describe all the little nuances of the airplane usually prove they can fly before you level off.

The ones that scare you have to "check that POH -- it's been a while..." or inform you from the time you show up that the flight review is a mere formality for them.
 
I also suggest if you start checking out people in six seat aircraft, after covering the basics at lower weights, recruit some willing passengers and do some more training closer to max gross weights. The difference in performance and handling can be quite a surprise to someone who has only flown smaller planes.

(yes, I know the PA-235 is four seater, just making a suggestion for the future.)
 
When we did my HP endorsement, we pretty much just went out and had fun doing some short field takeoffs. The big thing for most of the people will be the addition of the blue lever, and as such a hair more engine management than they're used to.

Clay is right about emphasizing proper engine management, but make sure you know what that is. Many people don't have a very good idea.

Flying "high performance" planes isn't really a big deal, as you already know. However for someone who's used to a 150, hopping into an SR22 would likely be an eye opener. To me, that's more than anything what you're going for, just getting them some familiarity with something that has a bit more power turning the big aluminum (or in some cases composite) meat cleaver up front. :)
 
dmccormack said:
If you don't have lots of TW time -- get a decent amount of time in varying conditions before you start providing dual endorsements.
Click to expand...
+1 Don't jump in without a good amount of experience. It can bite you fast if you don't have it. My instructor friend wouldn't let me start until I had over 100 hours in tailwheel on my own. Also, get some good resources on the subject so you have a broad base of other folks experience to draw from. One of the best resources I've used so far actually recommends 200 TW hours minimum before instructing. Also, get experience in different tailwheel aircraft because they're not all alike, and your students may end up flying a different TW aircraft than you train them in. For instance, a Stinson's TW landing gear is different and feels different than a Cub, and the Cessna 120's spring gear is a bit less forgiving than either. A TW with crosswind landing gear is a whole 'nother animal! It would be good if you could give them a bit of preparation for the various things they might encounter in the future with that shiny new endorsement.

Ryan
 
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