Activating ELTs before Forced Landing

kontiki

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A lot of airplanes have cockpit ELT controls. I was just wondering if there would ever be a time you'd turn the thing on in flight? In the case of a 121.5 ELT, it might improve your chances of attracting attention.

Thoughts?
 
A lot of airplanes have cockpit ELT controls. I was just wondering if there would ever be a time you'd turn the thing on in flight? In the case of a 121.5 ELT, it might improve your chances of attracting attention.

Thoughts?

If all goes to hell in my plane... it is the first thing I will activate. And since I usually am on Flight Following, my next move is to key the mic and give a heads up to the controller. followed quickly by a 7700 transponder code... IMHO..

I want help NOW :yes:.. At least they will know exactly where I am..
 
I was just wondering if there would ever be a time you'd turn the thing on in flight?
If you're on the way down and have lots of spare time you could do it. It avoids the very long shot chance that it would not trigger on impact. I would not bother.

In the case of a 121.5 ELT, it might improve your chances of attracting attention.
Well ... it's line of sight so if you are in the air, the summary report would be "ELT detected somewhere in the southeastern US." Not too useful. "ELT detected somewhere in western Tennesee" is even a little hard to work with. With no SARSAT monitoring, the location of an active 121.5-only ELT can be a really big question mark.
 
I carry a emergency satellite beacon with GPS coordinates and have every intention of activating it during descent.
 
If you're already talking to ATC, sure. If you're trying to raise someone on 121.5, you may not want to have to transmit over the activated ELT on the same frequency. Remember, 406mhz ELTs transmit on 121.5 as well to aid in SAR. At with 406 ELTs, they'll locate you by satellite immediately.
 
Only people going to find you with 121.5 is CAP. The Rescue Coordination Center has gone to SARSAT with 406 mhz. If you turn it on while talking to ATC you're just going to annoy them. They can mark you on the scope with a grease pencil or get a bearing / distance from their position easier than sending off an ELT that someone may or may not hear.

Had a C-150 go down once with engine failure while working approach. Got a bearing and distance from the scope, brought up a terrain map, compared that with a road atlas and had EMS personnel on him within half an hour.
 
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If I remember to do that I probably will. However, my first things will be to do the things to do my best to extricate myself from said emergency and prepare for emergency landing.
 
I still find it hard to believe that with all the gadgets, toys, stuff that looks good, fluff and other stuff pilots buy. They continue to fight buying a 406 ELT. It just does not make sense. Some still fight having a cheap handheld to only be used in the pattern because they "DON'T HAVE TOO" even though it could easily save their lives or the poor sap that runs into them. A 121.50 ELT is probably one of the biggest pieces of crap they ever made us put into planes, they don't go off half the time. Course if you have a hard landing and put it in the hangar, they call you the next day or two and say your ELT is going off in the hangar. Then there are shoulder harnesses, without them or just using a single strap across the chest and you are fixing to eat the panel.
Don't even get me started on a BRS system for your experimental, just the casket costs more than a BRS.
Dale
 
Don't even get me started on a BRS system for your experimental, just the casket costs more than a BRS.

So the casket with the $695 asking price in the classifieds is a bargain after all? Sounds like it would be cheaper to install the casket than the BRS - in the former you're also already prepared for the worst eventuality.
 
A lot of airplanes have cockpit ELT controls. I was just wondering if there would ever be a time you'd turn the thing on in flight? In the case of a 121.5 ELT, it might improve your chances of attracting attention.

Thoughts?

If I'm gliding for the deck, it will be on before I'm there.
 
If you're already talking to ATC, sure. If you're trying to raise someone on 121.5, you may not want to have to transmit over the activated ELT on the same frequency. Remember, 406mhz ELTs transmit on 121.5 as well to aid in SAR. At with 406 ELTs, they'll locate you by satellite immediately.

Not immediately, but pretty close.
 
I carry a emergency satellite beacon with GPS coordinates and have every intention of activating it during descent.
You're probably aware of this but I'll mention it anyways. Generally activating such a PLB involves you extending the antenna. The antenna on such a device is rather fragile and you run a large risk of busting it while trying to do this in a hurry. They also are going to need a decent line of sight to the sky to be effective. Because of the above reasons the manufacturers of said devices generally highly discourage one from activating them until you're on the ground. Just too much of a chance you'll break it and minimal chance it'll help you.
 
Interesting crash report in Alaska in Plane Crash Monthly this month about a pilot who carried a personal locator, deployed it, the locator company reported it, and they still didn't get looked for until the next day.
 
When I built my plane I installed the 406 ELT and I made sure the remote unit was installed under the panel right by the stick so I could easily activate it in the air if I'm on the way down. The ELT also accepts a data record for lat/long from the GPS .. I still need to figure that out and hook it up.

RT
 
Yep, it seems like a perfect catch-22. I know (or hope) that I'll be conscious and able to activate the beacon in flight, but there's a chance I could break it. I also know from talking to Corky about the accident in JC's Husky that he didn't have time to get his vest off the seat-back before the fire consumed the cabin and they were down in the drainage without any means of communication.

You're probably aware of this but I'll mention it anyways. Generally activating such a PLB involves you extending the antenna. The antenna on such a device is rather fragile and you run a large risk of busting it while trying to do this in a hurry. They also are going to need a decent line of sight to the sky to be effective. Because of the above reasons the manufacturers of said devices generally highly discourage one from activating them until you're on the ground. Just too much of a chance you'll break it and minimal chance it'll help you.
 
Yep, it seems like a perfect catch-22. I know (or hope) that I'll be conscious and able to activate the beacon in flight, but there's a chance I could break it. I also know from talking to Corky about the accident in JC's Husky that he didn't have time to get his vest off the seat-back before the fire consumed the cabin and they were down in the drainage without any means of communication.
Understand. From my view the likelihood that the thing is going to be effective if you're completely incapacitated after an air activation is kind of minimal since there is a good chance you busted it or you're dead anyways. Even if you didn't bust it, it's relatively unlikely it ended up in a position that is going to provide a good signal for rescue.

I don't always carry my PLB. When I fly the Flybaby it is usually attached to the chest strap on my parachute. If I'm flying other aircraft I don't generally bring it unless we're going to be flying over deserted area in which case I attach it to my belt.
 
.......... I also know from talking to Corky about the accident in JC's Husky that he didn't have time to get his vest off the seat-back before the fire consumed the cabin and they were down in the drainage without any means of communication.


Ya mean Sparky ??:dunno:
 
If you're on the way down and have lots of spare time you could do it. It avoids the very long shot chance that it would not trigger on impact. I would not bother.
Where did you get this idea? ELTs are extremely unreliable after accidents, primarily because of antenna damage. The unit might be wailing away, but not broadcasting a thing.
 
Where did you get this idea? ELTs are extremely unreliable after accidents,......

Agreed.. During the RV-7 crash out here last week the investigator in charge was supposed to turn off the ELT, which did NOT trip during the 100+G impact...

So we spend 3 days going though the plane.. 51 hours later, while locked in a secure hangar with no one around.... It goes off...:dunno::confused::eek:
 
Agreed.. During the RV-7 crash out here last week the investigator in charge was supposed to turn off the ELT, which did NOT trip during the 100+G impact...

So we spend 3 days going though the plane.. 51 hours later, while locked in a secure hangar with no one around.... It goes off...:dunno::confused::eek:

Was it a 406 unit?
 
Nope, it was a 121.5 unit.....

here is a pic of it propped up next to the supercharger.
 

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Where did you get this idea? ELTs are extremely unreliable after accidents, primarily because of antenna damage. The unit might be wailing away, but not broadcasting a thing.
I'm not sure I understand your question. The stats I have seen IIRC are that ELTs work something like 60% of the time. A big factor in this is the violence of the crash; sometimes the ELT is simply destroyed by impact or fire.

Re antennas, that is also an issue, but even with almost no antenna there may still be a usable signal, though it won't be detectable at great distance. I was on a search a few years ago where the downed airplane was upside down in a swamp, with most of the airplane under water. The antenna was completely submerged. The ELT saved the day, but it was only detectable when the search aircraft was very close. I think a damaged or broken-off antenna would probably be similar or better.
 
Not trick enough.:( What was determined failed on the engine? What was it anyway?
...

Agreed on the "not trick enough" :sad::sad::sad:.

To use the legal term I have concluded" beyond reasonable doubt" what failed...

But... I will wait till the NTSB releases their probably cause so as to not influence their conclusion...;)
 
...

Agreed on the "not trick enough" :sad::sad::sad:.

To use the legal term I have concluded" beyond reasonable doubt" what failed...

But... I will wait till the NTSB releases their probably cause so as to not influence their conclusion...;)

PM me, I'm curious and impatient.;)
 
I'm not sure I understand your question. The stats I have seen IIRC are that ELTs work something like 60% of the time. A big factor in this is the violence of the crash; sometimes the ELT is simply destroyed by impact or fire.

Re antennas, that is also an issue, but even with almost no antenna there may still be a usable signal, though it won't be detectable at great distance. I was on a search a few years ago where the downed airplane was upside down in a swamp, with most of the airplane under water. The antenna was completely submerged. The ELT saved the day, but it was only detectable when the search aircraft was very close. I think a damaged or broken-off antenna would probably be similar or better.
http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/184213-1.html?redirected=1
 
Interesting. What was your source for the claimed 12% rate? "... it works only 12 percent of the time ..." Can you provide a citation or a link?
Oh hell, that was 11 years ago. My recollection is that I did an exhaustive review of the accident investigation forms, which have a box the investigator checks that indicates whether the ELT activated or not. Seems to me I then did a cross-check with an internal FAA study.
 
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If you're on the way down and have lots of spare time you could do it. It avoids the very long shot chance that it would not trigger on impact. I would not bother.

According to Fundamentals of Search and Rescue by Cooper, ELTs successfully activate only 12% of the time.

In any case, as others have also mentioned. Running 121.5 gear in 2013 demonstrates a pretty large disregard for safety. You want a 406 ELT and probably also PLB. For about $100 a year you get an almost absurdly better chance at being found if you go down.

And, back to the topic of the thread, even though the g-switches in the new ELTs are much better, yes!, activate them manually if you can.
 
Oh hell, that was 11 years ago. My recollection is that I did an exhaustive review of the accident investigation forms, which have a box the investigator checks that indicates whether the ELT activated or not. Seems to me I then did a cross-check with an internal FAA study.
Just for grins, I spent a few minutes looking at Google results on "emergency locator transmitter aircraft success rate." (I am smoking some ribs and have to hang around the house anyway. :wink2: )

I fount this 1990 paper, which reports 25% (PDF Page 11), and provides an interesting list of causes for ELTs not operating (Page 13): www.ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19910001651_1991001651.pdf It also forecasts a 75% rate for ELTs complying with the then-new/1985 TSO C-91a.

I also found this 2009 AOPA article: https://www.google.com/search?q=eme...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a Here is an excerpt:

" ... The original ELTs were manufactured to the specifications of an FAA technical standard order (TSO-C91) and have an activation rate of less than 25 percent in actual crashes and a 97 percent false-alarm rate. In 1985, a new TSO-C91A ELT was developed, which substantially reduces or eliminates many problems with the earlier model. The TSO-C91A provides improved performance and reliability (with an activation rate of 73 percent in actual crashes) ..." No citation of sources, however.

Here is a document from an ELT manufacturer that I found: apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view;jsessionid...?id=7022307421 It is rulemaking comments and a little hard to follow. He cites the 73% rate (possibly from the AOPA article) but also adds a statement that the 406mhz rate is 83%.

So with due respect I'd suggest that the 12% number, if it was ever correct, is no longer relevant. Much higher numbers, like the 60% I recall seeing in a briefing, are probably closer to the truth.
 
One issue with ELT studies is that an ELT failure on a non-survivable crash is irrelevant. The ELT is not designed to be a black box and survive tremendous impacts.
What matters is the success/failure rate of ELTs in survivable crashes.
Also, you can't engineer out everything. If the plane goes upside down in water and grounds the antenna, that's not the ELT's fault.

Be careful what you wish for. They could require an ELT to black box standards, with three antennae on different aspects of the aircraft to protect against antenna damage or grounding, and it'll be a $10k retrofit.
 
One issue with ELT studies is that an ELT failure on a non-survivable crash is irrelevant.
Certainly to the occupants, but many people still want the aircraft found -- most notably the families. And, during the search, you don't know that the crash was non-survivable.

Be careful what you wish for.
From what little I have read, it looks like they are heading to ADS-B being the answer. If every track has positive aircraft identification and is recorded, then in theory no airplane can be lost.

You want a 406 ELT and probably also PLB. For about $100 a year you get an almost absurdly better chance at being found if you go down.
Yup. Except I want a real PLB, not a piece of consumer electronics. No monthly costs then, and you may also avoid something like this: ".... pilot who carried a personal locator, deployed it, the locator company reported it, and they still didn't get looked for until the next day. ..." To be fair, that could also have been due to nightfall, but I like the fact that my (McMurdo) PLB is directly linked to SARSAT/COSPAS and, through them, to AFRCC. I also have AFRCC's number in my cell phone.
 
Yup. Except I want a real PLB, not a piece of consumer electronics. No monthly costs then, and you may also avoid something like this: ".... pilot who carried a personal locator, deployed it, the locator company reported it, and they still didn't get looked for until the next day. ..." To be fair, that could also have been due to nightfall, but I like the fact that my (McMurdo) PLB is directly linked to SARSAT/COSPAS and, through them, to AFRCC. I also have AFRCC's number in my cell phone.

Absolutely agree. The $100 a year I mentioned was the cost of having a 406 ELT *and* a 406 PLB amortized across a ten year lifetime.

Spot is a fun toy. No way am I betting my life on it.

Spidertracks is far more legit, but I'm in your camp. I'd rather have something hooked directly into the SAR process than an additional layer of indirection. Particularly since spidertracks costs between $200-500 a year over that same ten year period. If I were a fleet manager maybe spidertracks makes sense. But for SAR, 406 devices are cheaper (and *probably* more effective) and for having the fun of seeing your flights on a map afterward cloudahoy is free.
 
From what little I have read, it looks like they are heading to ADS-B being the answer. If every track has positive aircraft identification and is recorded, then in theory no airplane can be lost.

This will probably not happen in our lifetimes. As of today we are still at least seven years away from aircraft flying in the mode c veil being required to have ads-b out.

I'd bet odds are good that will be extended.

I can't imagine a requirement that would require it more broadly than something similar to current mode-c requirements. I mean, just think about what the NRA would say, wait, sorry, same attitude, different people... Just imagine what AOPA-PAC would say when every antique aircraft without an electrical system suddenly had to have an ADS-B out device.
 
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