ACLU...dare I say...Hypocrisy?

[poadeleted1]

Lease Signed For Muslim Youth Camp
March 23, 2006

North Liberty, Iowa (DES MOINES REGISTER)

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has signed a lease for up to 25 years with a group that wants to build a Muslim youth camp at Lake Coralville. The lease allows the Cedar Rapids-based Muslim Youth Camps of America to build on 114 acres of federal land. Construction can start once the group works out details with county and state regulators, the corps said Wednesday.

Plans for the $934,000 camp north of North Liberty call for lodging up to 60 campers ages 10 to 17 in cabins and tents plus staffers during the summer and up to 40 per night in the offseason. When completed, the camp will include a 2,400 square-foot lodge, a beach, recreation trails, five cabins, five tent pods and a bathroom.

And what did the ACLU have to say about this Muslim Youth Camp on federal land? You may be shocked to discover they are perfectly fine with the idea ...

These statements, including the fact that the proposed site will contain of a 36-foot dome-covered prayer tower, has not fazed the ACLU. Concerning the matter, the ICLU, the Iowa branch of the ACLU (who in March of 2000 condemned a proposal by 12 legislators to require posting of the Ten Commandments in the Iowa State Senate chamber) had this to say: “There is no establishment clause violation in government permitting the building of a structure that resembles a mosque or church…we are unaware of any cases involving governmental religious displays based on the theory that certain public architecture is an endorsement of one religion over another…this is not the case in which to try that argument out…."

Somehow that doesn’t quite square with the ACLU’s decision to shut down the Boy Scouts in San Diego and prevent them from using public land because the ACLU deemed the BSA to be a “religious group” ...

The American Civil Liberties Union and the Tom Homann Law Association are demanding that the City of San Diego stop subsidizing the activities of the Boy Scouts as long as that organization persists in discriminating on the basis of religion and sexual orientation. In a letter delivered this morning, the two organizations demanded that the City Council and Mayor terminate the City’s leases under which the Boy Scouts operate their headquarters in city-owned Balboa Park for $1 per year and receive rent-free use of facilities on city-owned property on Fiesta Island.

 

[wbarnhill]

The US Army Corps of Engineers already has a FAQ up about this.

http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/FAQ/DaybreakEA.htm

From that FAQ:

How can the Corps lease federal property to a religious organization? What about separation of church and state?
Answer: Non-profit organizations with religious affiliations are leased federal lands for park and recreational purposes under 16 U.S. Code, § 460d and other authorities. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers leases its federal lands to any qualified group or individual on the condition that the lessee shall not discriminate against any person or persons or exclude them from participation in the Lessee's operations, programs or activities conducted on the leased premises, because of race, color, religion, sex, age, handicap, or national origin. The Corps currently administers approximately 120 leases to religious-affiliated organizations on 7,000 acres of federal land located throughout the United States.
It should be noted that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the government from both establishing religion and interfering with its free exercise. Neither should occur with the proposed lease. To exclude an applicant on religious terms would violate the First Amendment.

Emphasis mine.

As for the ACLU going against other things, a Ten Commandments monument in a state building promotes one religion over another. Placing the major tenets of all other religions alongside the Ten Commandments would raise no protest from the ACLU.

Also, the ACLU has protested the lease of at least one federal piece of land to a religious group, that being Martin's Cove to the Latter Day Saints. The reason being that the LDS guides were harassing visitors about their faith and denying them access to areas. This directly contradicts the terms by which the lands are leased, and thus why the ACLU got involved.

You perceive hypocrisy, but in fact, it's all logical and consistent.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I'd also say that different branches of the ACLU do tend to go off in their own direction (it is either an umbrella organization or a hydra, depending on your viewpoint ) which explains its occasional schizophrenia.

I for one do find the stance in this case hypocritical (though I would like to know more about what they will be doing at this boys camp) but I attribute it to my reason above, not some perceived plot to destroy America.

 

[wbarnhill]

I'd also say that different branches of the ACLU do tend to go off in their own direction (it is either an umbrella organization or a hydra, depending on your viewpoint ) which explains its occasional schizophrenia.

I for one do find the stance in this case hypocritical (though I would like to know more about what they will be doing at this boys camp) but I attribute it to my reason above, not some perceived plot to destroy America.

Seems like this camp will be open to all denominations, kinda like YMCA camps and such.

 

[poadeleted1]

Lifting a line from yours Mr. Barnhill: It should be noted that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the government from both establishing religion and interfering with its free exercise.

So again, the ACLU, in it's efforts to remove the 10 Commandments from PUBLIC buildings, ban Christmas trees, Nativity scenes, Crosses, etc., etc. shows it's inconsistency in supporting a religious group/orgainization and stands behind it as showing tolerance, I guess.

Once again, anything that tends to be more traditionally American is bad, evil and must be repressed so that we can be enlightened and brought into the world of multiculturalism via the Islamic Express? This is so wrong.

It's either good for all or good for none. You may find fairness and consistency, but it must be because you are simply more enlightened than me, a mere infidel who is warily watching people whose sworn goal is the extermination of people who do not believe in their version of God.

You may say it's not the children, and I would agree. But it is the adults who are teaching the children, and until they forcefully and demonstrably provide proof that they are the religion of peace and tolerance, I will keep my powder dry. Talk the talk and walk the walk. That's all I want.

 

[poadeleted1]

Seems like this camp will be open to all denominations, kinda like YMCA camps and such.

And that is open to your interpretation. What happens when they ban the first Jew or Christian? Moreover, would you want to be the first one admitted to find out?

It must be great to be so naive. Life experiences tend to rub through that veneer of wonderful naivete and get you down to the particleboard of life. And it ain't always pretty, lad.

 

[wbarnhill]

You've yet to address the simple point that the Army Corps of Engineers has approx 120 leases to religion-affiliated non-profit organizations. It seems as if your only issue is with the fact that the ACE decided that a religion-affiliated group could not be discriminated against (namely a Muslim affiliated group).

The ACE has shown that it's "good for all". And as I stated earlier, if the major tenets of other religions are posted alongside the ten commandments in a public building, there would be no outcry. Would you be willing to place the tenets of Islam alongside the ten commandments in a courthouse?

 

[wbarnhill]

And that is open to your interpretation. What happens when they ban the first Jew or Christian? Moreover, would you want to be the first one admitted to find out?

At that moment the ACE would snatch the land out from under them since it is prohibited in the lease agreement they sign. Would be an awful waste of almost a million dollars (plus land costs) to do so however.

 

[poadeleted3]

I'm unsurprised that the ACLU has no problem attacking the Boy Scout's leased use of federal land at numerous locations across the country, while embracing the leased use of federal land by religious groups, so long as they aren't Christian or practice Christian beliefs. It's obvious hypocrisy, and obviously dishonest, but they and that bothers neither they nor their supporters. It's how they routinely operate.

 

[Anthony]

I for one do find the stance in this case hypocritical (though I would like to know more about what they will be doing at this boys camp) but I attribute it to my reason above, not some perceived plot to destroy America.

Sorry. The ACLU is systematically trying to destroy this country through their far left agenda. This is just one more example.

 

[Dart]

.... perceive hypocrisy, but in fact, it's all logical and consistent.

I ain't so simple William. The ACLU Boy Scouts position was

" The American Civil Liberties Union and the Tom Homann Law Association are demanding that the City of San Diego stop subsidizing the activities of the Boy Scouts as long as that organization persists in discriminating on the basis of religion and sexual orientation. In a letter delivered this morning, the two organizations demanded that the City Council and Mayor terminate the City’s leases under which the Boy Scouts operate their headquarters in city-owned Balboa Park for $1 per year and receive rent-free use of facilities on city-owned property on Fiesta Island."

So which is it? Do they despise BSA for their stance on homosexuals or for being faith-based. Can you think of a more theocratic, anti-homosexual, anti-woman's rights, xenotheological faith with a major World-wide distribution than Islam?

 

[poadeleted1]

You've yet to address the simple point that the Army Corps of Engineers has approx 120 leases to religion-affiliated non-profit organizations. It seems as if your only issue is with the fact that the ACE decided that a religion-affiliated group could not be discriminated against (namely a Muslim affiliated group).

The simple point you refer to is noted. And as you note in another post, as soon as they discriminate, the lease should be terminated. I agree.

I am severely insulted that you, in a not too subtle attempt, infer that I would support one religious group over another. I do no such thing, however, given the STATED goal of the religion of peace as practiced by the more radical fringe (I invite you to read the Q'oran for yourself and note that infidels will be converted, subjugated or killed) is world domination by their religion and culture, why would you have our government support that? Is it just that you think they are fooling and they really won't hurt us?

For the record, pick ANY religion or any specific organization. If that organization has a stated goal of my destruction and the domination of the world, then I have an issue. I don't care if they are Muslim, Christian, Aethist, Sanritan, Black, White, Green, French, Mexican, Samoan.....it simply does not matter.

If you come here LEGALLY, you should have two options. You either get along or move along. If you can't, then we don't want or need you.

The ACE has shown that it's "good for all". And as I stated earlier, if the major tenets of other religions are posted alongside the ten commandments in a public building, there would be no outcry.

Would you be willing to place the tenets of Islam alongside the ten commandments in a courthouse?

Do you know what these tenets of Islam are? Post them, because without knowing what you apparently know, I can't say. I am not as knowledgeable about everything as some folks are. I require information to make an informed decision.

If they do not contradict US laws and are not in contravention to the Constitution of the US, I might agree. But tell me, young William, do you want an Imam deciding your fate - do you support public stonings, amputation of hands, public executions? Those are tenets of Islamic law as practiced in Iran. Things that I have personally seen. I don't think they would play well in Peoria, nor in Greenville.

Your naievete is showing through young one.

 

[Frank Browne]

Sorry. The ACLU is systematically trying to destroy this country through their far left agenda. This is just one more example.

Correct-a-mundo. That is why...IMHO...words like hypocrisy don't go far enough in describing the American Snivil Liberties Union.

 

[poadeleted1]

At that moment the ACE would snatch the land out from under them since it is prohibited in the lease agreement they sign. Would be an awful waste of almost a million dollars (plus land costs) to do so however.

My emphasis - and that is why this should not go through. Because the odds are greater that it WILL happen than that it WON'T happen.

 

[Dart]

You've yet to address the simple point that the Army Corps of Engineers has approx 120 leases to religion-affiliated non-profit organizations. It seems as if your only issue is with the fact that the ACE decided that a religion-affiliated group could not be discriminated against (namely a Muslim affiliated group).

The ACE has shown that it's "good for all".

That is a good point William, but the focus of the post is the ACLU's flip-flops. I agree that the ACE seems to be playing fair.

Would you be willing to place the tenets of Islam alongside the ten commandments in a courthouse?

I think you may be mistaken on the Muslim position on the Ten Commandments. They have no problem with it.

The only 'tenants' of Islam that would fit on the side of a building are the Shahada (sp). The Shahada is an affirmation of Islam and spells the main "must do's" to be a Muslim. There is little to nothing in the Shahada that would be construed as "laws".

Other than the first commandment (which the extremely monotheisitc Muslims have no problem with) the TC has little to do with "tenents"of faith and everthing to do with appropriate civil behavior.

As a group, Muslims are not protesting display of the TC. No Christian denom is protesting display of the TC. Hindus and Buddists are not up in arms protesting display of the TC. It's pretty much a handful of atheists, and ...the ACLU.

 

[wbarnhill]

I ain't so simple William. The ACLU Boy Scouts position was

" The American Civil Liberties Union and the Tom Homann Law Association are demanding that the City of San Diego stop subsidizing the activities of the Boy Scouts as long as that organization persists in discriminating on the basis of religion and sexual orientation. In a letter delivered this morning, the two organizations demanded that the City Council and Mayor terminate the City’s leases under which the Boy Scouts operate their headquarters in city-owned Balboa Park for $1 per year and receive rent-free use of facilities on city-owned property on Fiesta Island."

So which is it? Do they despise BSA for their stance on homosexuals or for being faith-based. Can you think of a more theocratic, anti-homosexual, anti-woman's rights, xenotheological faith with a major World-wide distribution than Islam?

Note the emphasis. The city was subsidizing the activities of the BSA as well as allowing them to operate rent free in city owned facilities and lease for 1$ a year. THAT was the issue the ACLU brought up. The BSA openly discriminated, and thus shouldn't be eligible for gov't subsidies. That's the difference between that instance and this one.

 

[wbarnhill]

That is a good point William, but the focus of the post is the ACLU's flip-flops. I agree that the ACE seems to be playing fair.



I think you may be mistaken on the Muslim position on the Ten Commandments. They have no problem with it.

The only 'tenants' of Islam that would fit on the side of a building are the Shahada (sp). The Shahada is an affirmation of Islam and spells the main "must do's" to be a Muslim. There is little to nothing in the Shahada that would be construed as "laws".

Other than the first commandment (which the extremely monotheisitc Muslims have no problem with) the TC has little to do with "tenents"of faith and everthing to do with appropriate civil behavior.

As a group, Muslims are not protesting display of the TC. No Christian denom is protesting display of the TC. Hindus and Buddists are not up in arms protesting display of the TC. It's pretty much a handful of atheists, and ...the ACLU.

Ah, but you see... what happens if you decide to display the ten commandments without the first four (which promote one religion over another)? Of course, then the question must be asked, why do the other six need to be posted anywhere? Shouldn't those be inherent?

Actually, there are Christians who protest the display of the Ten Commandments in the public square (Look up Americans United for Separation of Church and State sometime). As far as Muslims go, where is your data that shows they aren't protesting the display of the Christian Ten Commandments? I'm sure they would like the Qu'ran version alongside it. Furthermore, look at other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca, Shinto, Taoism, and yes, even Scientology. By attempting to place a religious icon in a public building, you are attempting to violate the separation of church and state, and I assure you other religious groups will want the same spotlight. This could be eased if all faiths were allowed to place their tenets alongside, so that no religion is presented as being promoted over another, but I still have yet to see someone who promotes the Ten Commandments in the public square say that they wouldn't mind the tenets of other religions being on the same level.

 

[Dart]

Note the emphasis. The city was subsidizing the activities of the BSA as well as allowing them to operate rent free in city owned facilities and lease for 1$ a year. THAT was the issue the ACLU brought up. The BSA openly discriminated, and thus shouldn't be eligible for gov't subsidies. That's the difference between that instance and this one.

Well they won, so I wont argue the standing or outcome of the case.

Those of us who believe the ACLU is more of a hinderance than a help look at motive, a more difficult position to quantify than a win-loss court record.

 

[poadeleted3]

Ah, but you see... what happens if you decide to display the ten commandments without the first four (which promote one religion over another)? Of course, then the question must be asked, why do the other six need to be posted anywhere? Shouldn't those be inherent?

Actually, there are Christians who protest the display of the Ten Commandments in the public square (Look up Americans United for Separation of Church and State sometime). As far as Muslims go, where is your data that shows they aren't protesting the display of the Christian Ten Commandments? I'm sure they would like the Qu'ran version alongside it. Furthermore, look at other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca, Shinto, Taoism, and yes, even Scientology. By attempting to place a religious icon in a public building, you are attempting to violate the separation of church and state, and I assure you other religious groups will want the same spotlight. This could be eased if all faiths were allowed to place their tenets alongside, so that no religion is presented as being promoted over another, but I still have yet to see someone who promotes the Ten Commandments in the public square say that they wouldn't mind the tenets of other religions being on the same level.

I'm curious, are you as vociferous in campaigning for the removal of the symbols of the pagan Greek religion from public buildings as you are Christian symbols? If not, why not?

 

[wbarnhill]

I'm curious, are you as vociferous in campaigning for the removal of the symbols of the pagan Greek religion from public buildings as you are Christian symbols? If not, why not?

Well, if you really want to get down to it... why don't we simply destroy the "Justice the Guardian of Liberty" sculpture on the Supreme Court building? Or are you just purposefully ignoring the many places the Judeo-Christian faith is already displayed (on par with other religions, mind you)?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

By attempting to place a religious icon in a public building, you are attempting to violate the separation of church and state

But the constitution says nothing at all about separation of church and state. What it does prohibit is the establishment of a state religion such as the Church of England, Islam in Iran, and I suppose that the Jewish faith in Israel probably counts as a state religion, as well. A display of the 10 commandments cannot be construed as the establishment of a state religion. Establishing the "Holy American Chuch of the Ten Commandments" funded by taxpayer dollars would be in violation, but that isn't happening, is it?

 

[poadeleted3]

Well, if you really want to get down to it... why don't we simply destroy the "Justice the Guardian of Liberty" sculpture on the Supreme Court building? Or are you just purposefully ignoring the many places the Judeo-Christian faith is already displayed (on par with other religions, mind you)?

I take it you don't wish to give a direct answer to my question? I'll answer yours directly: Yes, that sculpture should be destroyed or removed, until Christians are allowed to display the Ten Commandments and other religious symbols alongside it.

 

[Dart]

I take it you don't wish to give a direct answer to my question? I'll answer yours directly: Yes, that sculpture should be destroyed or removed, until Christians are allowed to display the Ten Commandments and other religious symbols alongside it.

Oddly enough (in the context of banning TC displays), the Muslims are extremely careful to avoid any semblance of creating "idols" because of the Mosaic injunction. Therefor they have embraced geometric pattern decoration to high art. They decorate their buildings heavily with Qu'ranc versus (surrounded by geometric pattern framing.) Those rugs aren't geometric by accident. No creature, live or mythic, will grace a Mosque or Islamic ensign. No likeness of Mohammed is allowed.


William, Muslims hold the patriarch prophets in extremely high regard, below Mohammed of course, but worthy of respect. They really have no problem whatsoever with the Ten Commandments. Mohamed believed that the Jews had perverted the Word of the Patriarchs and fallen away from proper worship. In many ways Islam is really a type of hyper-orthodox Judaism.

 

[ScottM]

In many ways Islam is really a type of hyper-orthodox Judaism.

That must be why the Orthodox Jews in Isreal and the Palastinians are such good friends??

Explain your hypothesis further please? I have never heard that comparision made before but I do know that all three, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have many things in common when it comes to beliefs and observances.

 

[Dart]

That must be why the Orthodox Jews in Isreal and the Palastinians are such good friends??

Ya'll are cousins. (ya can't make this stuff up)

Explain your hypothesis further please? I have never heard that comparision made before but I do know that all three, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have many things in common when it comes to beliefs and observances.

No hypothesis involved, history records it. Right down to the where, when, and why the relationship between Mohammed and Jews went sour. No doubt the Muslims have a positive spin for the event (the usual - a small scale anti-semitic genocidal slaughter). But, I'm away from my sources. I'll PM you later. Or I'll post here if you prefer.

 

[ScottM]

Ya'll are cousins. (ya can't make this stuff up)

Well we are all cousins on some level aren't we?

No hypothesis involved, history records it. Right down to the where, when, and why the relationship between Mohammed and Jews went sour. No doubt the Muslims have a positive spin for the event (the usual - a small scale anti-semitic genocidal slaughter). But, I'm away from my sources. I'll PM you later. Or I'll post here if you prefer.

I am familair with the constution of Medinah and what happened there. And you are right there is significant spin form each side about that fiasco. But even after the break up Jews and Muslims do come together several times throughout history until Zionism really took hold. Then the schism got really bad to the point of where we are at today.

Never heard this theory about ultra-orthodox Judaisma nd Islam before. But Mohamend it is said did not even meet a Jews until later in his life (at Medinah actually) and it would be difficult to say that Judaism contributed to Mohamend's development of Islam as a religion since the Koran was written when he first met a Jew. I am still failing to see the connection.