A320 Flight Controls

[Clark1961]

So you claim the emergency procedures for a Baron and a Bus are the same. Dude, you are so out of touch with reality is all I can say.

 

[Henning]

There may be a bit more to it than that. I recall the comment on the 777 crash at SFO that when the aircraft was low the captain pulled the nose up and didn't add throttle because the airplane was supposed to do that for him. If that isn't FBW, I don't know what is. If someone wants to limit FBW to aerodynamic surfaces only then they are using a legacy definition and should adjust their mindset. I've long noted that many so called "experts" have a tough time with adjusting to progress.

This all ties back to the claim that flying a FBW aircraft around the pattern is no different than flying a Baron around the pattern. The claim of no difference is ludicrous as long as all the FBW functions and protections are in place. Just look at the difference in EP for a V1 engine loss...

It actually exemplifies why there would be taught a differentiation as well. They weren't considering them as separate systems, and they need to, because each has different factors which affect their 'mode'. IOW You have to know a separate set of circumstances that degrades the flight surface controls from the set of circumstances that degrades the flight thust controls, and you have to know how the two systems talk to each other so you understand what functions you've lost.

 

[Clark1961]

It actually exemplifies why there would be taught a differentiation as well. They weren't considering them as separate systems, and they need to, because each has different factors which affect their 'mode'. IOW You have to know a separate set of circumstances that degrades the flight surface controls from the set of circumstances that degrades the flight thust controls, and you have to know how the two systems talk to each other so you understand what functions you've lost.

No need for differentiation at all, simply system understanding needed to be taught. Just as spoiler function varies with flight mode, auto-throttle function varies also.

Of course analysis of Boeing's autothrottle model might well indicate that it needs improvement but you know how "experts" can't admit that something needs improved.

 

[RotorAndWing]

This all ties back to the claim that flying a FBW aircraft around the pattern is no different than flying a Baron around the pattern. The claim of no difference is ludicrous as long as all the FBW functions and protections are in place. Just look at the difference in EP for a V1 engine loss...

So you claim the emergency procedures for a Baron and a Bus are the same. Dude, you are so out of touch with reality is all I can say.

First of all, I never "said" that. Secondly, why don't you explain to everyone what those differences are? Are you implying a. Baron can do a V1 cut and continue?

You said " The claim of no difference is ludicrous as long as all the FBW functions and protections are in place".

So please explain the FBW functions and protections and why that makes a difference?

 

[Henning]

No need for differentiation at all, simply system understanding needed to be taught. Just as spoiler function varies with flight mode, auto-throttle function varies also.

Of course analysis of Boeing's autothrottle model might well indicate that it needs improvement but you know how "experts" can't admit that something needs improved.

The big problem there is the lawyers are always afraid that if you admit to a mistake, you expose yourself to getting sued, so nothing changes.

 

[Clark1961]

The big problem there is the lawyers are always afraid that if you admit to a mistake, you expose yourself to getting sued, so nothing changes.

True. It's much better to crash a plane and kill a couple people than admit a mistake. Engineers and lawyers are equally bad in this regard (speaking as an engineer).

 

[Henning]

True. It's much better to crash a plane and kill a couple people than admit a mistake. Engineers and lawyers are equally bad in this regard (speaking as an engineer).

I see it all the time (speaking as the guy who has to crash the equipment and take responsability for the results).

 

[nauga]

I recall the comment on the 777 crash at SFO that when the aircraft was low the captain pulled the nose up and didn't add throttle because the airplane was supposed to do that for him. If that isn't FBW, I don't know what is.

I'll agree with the latter. Airplanes as old as the A-6 and F-4, both 60's vintage with hydro-mechanical flight control systems, had autothrottles, and either one would respond as you describe if the pilot did not notice that the autothrottles were not engaged. I do not call that fly by wire, nor does anyone in the industry, and I doubt that the industry will conform to your wishes that they change.

As for lack of a direct mechanical (I'll even spot you hydraulic) connection between flight controls strictly defines FBW, I'll ask if anyone considers the current Cessna 172's FBW. There is no direct mechanical connection between the flaps and any pilot control. Surely we consider flaps flight controls, no? So log that FBW time, boys, it'll look good in your interview

Here's a little decoder:
automation does not require FBW
augmentation does not require FBW
pilot relief modes do not require FBW

While any or all of these might leverage an FBW system or be easier to implement in an FBW system, failure of any of the above systems for reasons including pilot error does not automatically condemn or even implicate FBW in and of itself.

Nauga,
struggling to leave the FU out of fundamentals

 

[Clark1961]

I'll agree with the latter. Airplanes as old as the A-6 and F-4, both 60's vintage with hydro-mechanical flight control systems, had autothrottles, and either one would respond as you describe if the pilot did not notice that the autothrottles were not engaged. I do not call that fly by wire, nor does anyone in the industry, and I doubt that the industry will conform to your wishes that they change.

As for lack of a direct mechanical (I'll even spot you hydraulic) connection between flight controls strictly defines FBW, I'll ask if anyone considers the current Cessna 172's FBW. There is no direct mechanical connection between the flaps and any pilot control. Surely we consider flaps flight controls, no? So log that FBW time, boys, it'll look good in your interview

Here's where you rant fails. The flap setting does't change in response to the pilot's manipulation of the yoke. Certainly autothrottles do change the power setting in response to a pilot's manipulation of the yoke to control pitch.

Feel free to return to your straight/narrow blindered world now...

 

[RotorAndWing]

Here's where you rant fails. The flap setting does't change in response to the pilot's manipulation of the yoke. Certainly autothrottles do change the power setting in response to a pilot's manipulation of the yoke to control pitch.

Feel free to return to your straight/narrow blindered world now...

 

[nauga]

Certainly autothrottles do change the power setting in response to a pilot's manipulation of the yoke to control pitch.

Certainly they do, even in non FBW airplanes, and failure of a pilot to recognize they are not engaged is not indicative of of an inherent fault in FBW in and of itself.

Nauga,
and his FMECA

 

[Clark1961]

So, you don't believe that autothrottles respond to a pitch change. Wow, you really don't have a clue do you?

 

[Clark1961]

Certainly they do, even in non FBW airplanes, and failure of a pilot to recognize they are not engaged is not indicative of of an inherent fault in FBW in and of itself.

Nauga,
and his FMECA

Please quote the whole thing to keep it in context.

 

[RotorAndWing]

So, you don't believe that autothrottles respond to a pitch change.

Please quote where I wrote that.

Wow, you really don't have a clue do you?

Speaking of clueless, here we have a petroleum engineer (you) with a whopping 700 hours as a private pilot who's never flown anything larger than a GA single engine airplane, arguing with a flight test engineer with thousands upon thousands of hours engineering FBW, and pilots who are type rated, TRI and TRE's and highly experienced.

Unreal.

 

[Rex Kramer]

Please quote where I wrote that.



Speaking of clueless, here we have a petroleum engineer (you) with a whopping 700 hours as a private pilot who's never flown anything larger than a GA single engine airplane, arguing with a flight test engineer with thousands upon thousands of hours engineering FBW, and pilots who are type rated, TRI and TRE's and highly experienced.

Unreal.

I laffed...



and again, automation and FBW are two separate things.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I laffed...



and again, automation and FBW are two separate things.

Yea, we're all clueless.

I guess the "Colorado School of Mines" has an A320 type rating course.

 

[Clark1961]

Please quote where I wrote that.



Speaking of clueless, here we have a petroleum engineer (you) with a whopping 700 hours as a private pilot who's never flown anything larger than a GA single engine airplane, arguing with a flight test engineer with thousands upon thousands of hours engineering FBW, and pilots who are type rated, TRI and TRE's and highly experienced.

Unreal.

Nice try. You're the one who can't tell the difference between a Baron and and an Airbus. Then you go on to ignore the difference between manually selected flaps and autothrottles. Sorry, your position won't hold water. You claim experience but you obviously don't display it. I think you are fake through and through.

 

[Clark1961]

Yea, we're all clueless.

I guess the "Colorado School of Mines" has an A320 type rating course.

I have a clueless stalker...wonderful. Yer sick dude. Even a casual observer can see that a Baron isn't the same as an Airbus.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I guess the "Colorado School of Mines" has an A320 type rating course.

Different kind of type rating course.

It's called Finding Airplane Parts at the Bottom of a Smoking Hole.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Nice try. You're the one who can't tell the difference between a Baron and and an Airbus.

So elaborate on that?

Please explain to all of us "inexperienced fakers" the difference between taking a Baron, VFR on a flight around the traffic pattern, and how that would be different from flying an Airbus, VFR, around the traffic pattern.

Then you go on to ignore the difference between manually selected flaps and autothrottles.

Please show that post.

Sorry, your position won't hold water. You claim experience but you obviously don't display it.

And you base this on??? Care to tell everyone here about your experience on the subject, and how you obtained it?

I think you are fake through and through.

Uh, sure Clark.

When you don't understand something (or can't comprehend it) then sling insults to cover up for your ignorance.

 

[Clark1961]

So elaborate on that?

Please explain to all of us "inexperienced fakers" the difference between taking a Baron, VFR on a flight around the traffic pattern, and how that would be different from flying an Airbus, VFR, around the traffic pattern.



Please show that post.



And you base this on??? Care to tell everyone here about your experience on the subject, and how you obtained it?




Uh, sure Clark.

When you don't understand something (or can't comprehend it) then sling insults to cover up for your ignorance.

You're the one who couldn't tell the difference between a Baron and an Airbus. You have to explain it or continue to run away from the subject. Sorry stalker, thats just the way it is.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You're the one who couldn't tell the difference between a Baron and an Airbus. You have to explain it or continue to run away from the subject. Sorry stalker, thats just the way it is.

Yea, whatever.

I've tried to engage in a normal conversation on the subject, and tried to get you to clarify yourself, but all you can do is hurl insults and hide behind those.

And with that, I'm done with your silly games, once again.

and oh, BTW, since your post your resume on Linkedin it hardly makes anyone a "stalker"..

 

[Clark1961]

Yea, whatever.

I've tried to engage in a normal conversation on the subject, and tried to get you to clarify yourself, but all you can do is hurl insults and hide behind those.

And with that, I'm done with your silly games, once again.

and oh, BTW, since your post your resume on Linkedin it hardly makes anyone a "stalker"..

I understand that you can't come up with a logical argument and that you respond with weak non-verbal responses. I haven't insulted you but I have pointed out you shortcomings.

Goodbye stalker, have a nice fantasy life...

 

[TheBusFlyer]

Hi, just taking this post back...

In Ground mode, when the aircraft reaches 75 kt during the takeoff roll, the system reduces the maximum up elevator deflection from 30 ° to
20 °.

Does that mean that full AFT side-stick is no more equal to 2.5G but a G lower than it?
So basically, the G demand is reduced?

Thanks

 

[RotorAndWing]

Hi, just taking this post back...

In Ground mode, when the aircraft reaches 75 kt during the takeoff roll, the system reduces the maximum up elevator deflection from 30 ° to
20 °.

Does that mean that full AFT side-stick is no more equal to 2.5G but a G lower than it?
So basically, the G demand is reduced?

Thanks

Hi TBF,

Can I make a suggestion? Before delving to far into this please go read and do some research on basic aerodynamics and flight. What you are getting into has more to do with engineering and FBW architecture than flight operations.

 

[denverpilot]

Well that was a fun-filled thread of passive-aggressiveness and very little substance. LOL.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Well that was a fun-filled thread of passive-aggressiveness and very little substance. LOL.

No, it was a thread that was having a good discussion on a topic that was hijacked for a personal agenda.

TBF is putting forth a good effort in learning, but he has the cart way, way out in front of the horse at the moment. Once he grasp basic aerodynamics much of this will be easier to comprehend.