A VOR(EMI) as a departure. Learned something new.

genna

genna

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Feb 5, 2015
Messages
1,721
Display Name
Display name:
ТУ-104
This didn't go as I expected. Nothing bad, but learned a few things.

So, last night I was doing a little sightseeing flight from KDMW to KTGI and decided to experiment with filing IFR from a waypoint. In this case it was Westminster VOR (EMI). Kind of a big fix here used for all kinds of approaches and such to various airports. Typically, this would be the first fix given by ATC after KDMW departure anyway. The conditions were clear sky(mostly), so this was just for easy transition through B and learning experience.

Attempt 1. File ICAO. EMI to TGI direct with Foreflight. With remarks that I'm departing VFR and will pick up in the air. That didn't really work at all. As I tried to brief, FF just told me that the departure point is invalid. I didn't pursue this any further and went for:

Attempt 2. FAA/Domestic. Everything is the same. Briefed fine, filed fine. But then a FF message: Your plan was rejected by ATC, call Flight Services. Well, I was just about to call them, when I get a call from them. The guy on the line proceeds to explain to me that EMI is in 2 sectors(NY and WAS at different altitudes) and the computer mistakenly sent to NY center which really had nothing to do with the flight. Then he tells me he fixed it for me by making my departure point KDMW with a remark that I will pick up in the air. And that I should do the same in the future.

What was interesting about this flight is when I called Potomac in the air, I never really got any route. I got a general clearance(I think, not too sure I actually got that either), altitude(I was already at my filed when I called them), squawk, and a few vectors until direct to destination about 15 min later. But I never got a full route at initial contact. This felt more like flight following than an IFR routing. Here I was getting ready to copy the entire CRAFT, but it never happened. Only CAT:) happened.

Thought I'd share this.
 
genna said:
What was interesting about this flight is when I called Potomac in the air, I never really got any route. I got a general clearance(I think, not too sure I actually got that either), altitude(I was already at my filed when I called them), squawk, and a few vectors until direct to destination about 15 min later. But I never got a full route at initial contact. This felt more like flight following than an IFR routing. Here I was getting ready to copy the entire CRAFT, but it never happened. Only CAT:) happened.
Click to expand...
I've never heard of anything like that. As far as I know, an IFR clearance always has a clearance limit and a route, and usually an altitude unless you're given a block. The route might be "via radar vectors", are you sure that's not what they gave you?

Without a route, what would they expect you to do in case of lost comms? :confused:

I know if I'd have been given that clearance, I would have queried them about the route.
 
azure said:
I've never heard of anything like that. As far as I know, an IFR clearance always has a clearance limit and a route, and usually an altitude unless you're given a block. The route might be "via radar vectors", are you sure that's not what they gave you?

Without a route, what would they expect you to do in case of lost comms? :confused:

I know if I'd have been given that clearance, I would have queried them about the route.
Click to expand...

I suppose it could be, but there was never a clearance delivered to me that I read back. Only a set of instructions(maintain 5000 turn left to 130). They knew I was on IFR plan because I did cancel it just before TGI after they asked about plan closing. Maybe I missed "Cleared to KTGI as filed" before they gave me vectors.

This is how I understood it anyway if comms failed.
 
In the future, I'd ask for clarification if you're not 100% certain about something in your clearance. Especially in this case since your filed route crossed right through the DC SFRA.
 
azure said:
I've never heard of anything like that. As far as I know, an IFR clearance always has a clearance limit and a route, and usually an altitude unless you're given a block. The route might be "via radar vectors", are you sure that's not what they gave you?

Without a route, what would they expect you to do in case of lost comms? :confused:

I know if I'd have been given that clearance, I would have queried them about the route.
Click to expand...

"As filed." Direct EMI, then direct TGI, at the filed altitude.
 
Sounds like a local issue. We file often BRV (Brooke VOR) or OTT (Nottingham) for IFR flights south and east since we can't file IFR flightplans out of the FRZ using online tools (It's often easier to just file a VFR FRZ flightplan and then do the more detailed IFR flightplan online). Another issue is if you're an avid flightaware tracker, flightaware sometimes has problems tracking flights that begin or terminate at a fix in lieu of an airport.

As far as your flight, I'll echo what others said and make sure you understand your clearance. Sounds like you got "cleared to Tangier as filed, climb and maintain X thousand..." but missed it. Remember, when picking up an IFR clearance in the air, "CRAFT" becomes "CRA", since you already know the frequency, and the controller will give you a squawk code and radar identify you before issuing your clearance.
 
I never really got any route
Click to expand...

I would be uncomfortable without a clear agreement on a route, on any IFR plan. I would press the issue even if it seemed to annoy them; you both need to know where you are going.
 
I don't recommend filing from a waypoint or navaid such as a VOR. There is great opportunity for the flightplan to get lost or routed to a center/facility that does not handle the flightplan. With departing from an airport, the routing is clear as each airport is in a routing table of sorts. Centers and TRACONS have unpublished agreements as to who owns airspace along the boundary areas between Centers and TRACONS and at what altitude. I asked the FAA for a complete list, but it doesn't exist. Some of the Center boundaries are different, look at ARD for an example. On the Low Altitude chart, ARD is in DC center, on the Hi Altitude chart, it is in NY center. Just had a case where a pilot filed beginning at ARD, and it got routed to DC Center, but was rejected for not being in DC Center.

File from an airport and pick up the flightplan from the departure controller frequency for that airport after you have departed. I just request my IFR flightplan, departed airport KXYZ at 1530Z. I have not had an issue getting the clearance. File from a VOR if you are willing to take a chance it won't be able to be found, even if it doesn't get rejected. Example, two pilots from the same Charter outfit depart VFR from the same airport at roughly the same time. One goes north, gets his clearance. The other goes south, no joy. Reason, the airport is immediately north of a Center boundary. North bound flight contacts Center he departed from. Southbound flight, contacts the southern boundary Center, they don't have a clue.
 
For what it is worth, it makes no difference if you file using Domestic or ICAO flightplan with a departure of EMI direct to TGI, either will be allowed by ForeFlight and Lockheed Martin. Both will be rejected by ATC. I did a test file of that route and got the following rejection from ATC:

"REJ FPL/730 KZNY RTE FLIGHT DOES NOT ENTER CENTER AIRSPACE FPLKDCA"

This is just one example of why I don't recommend choosing a VOR or intersection as the point of departure.
 
So, how would you recommend filing a VFR/IFR flight?

Say, I was flying Bay Area to LA and wanted to depart VFR to avoid traffic conflicts on V485, do some sightseeing, and start IFR at FIM VOR?
 
I wouldn't do it, but if you file the IFR portion and contact LA Center well before you arrive at FIM VOR and see if they can locate your flightplan so they can clear you for the IFR portion of the flight. If LA Center found it and accommodated you, then close any VFR flightplan you may have filed. Under ICAO flightplans, there is the concept of a YFR or ZFR flightplan that is designed to allow a change from IFR to VFR or the other way around after a waypoint, but these are not supported by the ATC computer in the US.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, how would you recommend filing a VFR/IFR flight?

Say, I was flying Bay Area to LA and wanted to depart VFR to avoid traffic conflicts on V485, do some sightseeing, and start IFR at FIM VOR?
Click to expand...

Here ya go:

AIM said:
5-1-6. Composite Flight Plan (VFR/IFR Flights)

a. Flight plans which specify VFR operation for one portion of a flight, and IFR for another portion, will be accepted by the FSS at the point of departure. If VFR flight is conducted for the first portion of the flight, pilots should report their departure time to the FSS with whom the VFR/IFR flight plan was filed; and, subsequently, close the VFR portion and request ATC clearance from the FSS nearest the point at which change from VFR to IFR is proposed. Regardless of the type facility you are communicating with (FSS, center, or tower), it is the pilot's responsibility to request that facility to "CLOSE VFR FLIGHT PLAN." The pilot must remain in VFR weather conditions until operating in accordance with the IFR clearance.
Click to expand...
 
Yep. This is why the SFRA gates were established. Early on in the "ADIZ" procedures the FAA in their infinite wisdom tried to do a training video on how to enter the ADIZ (as originally specified). They left DMV and filed for EMI and yep, BAL didn't have the plan. It was sent to ZNY. Of course, this was laughable as we're all sitting there saying ... well if the freaking FAA can't figure it out themselves, how the hell are we supposed to do it.

It was in response to my further suggestion that they chart this mess that they stated there was no precedent for charting temporary airspace. Bull, I said. You did the purple dot versions of both the Washington sectional and TAC for a bloody soccer match.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, how would you recommend filing a VFR/IFR flight?

Say, I was flying Bay Area to LA and wanted to depart VFR to avoid traffic conflicts on V485, do some sightseeing, and start IFR at FIM VOR?
Click to expand...

What altitude and where are you going?
 
I'm so glad you posted this. I filed an IFR flight plan from EMI to an airport within the SFRA once. When I called Potomac, they weren't able to pull up the plan. I called Flight Service in the air while holding at EMI and they said it was filed. It took Potomac another 10 minutes to locate the plan. That was 2 years ago....now I think I have the answer as to why that happened. Next time I'll just use a nearby airport.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top