A TOMATO FLAMES

asechrest

asechrest

En-Route
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
4,588
Location
Tampa Bay
Display Name
Display name:
asechrest
Hello all.

I'm running through the PTS another time before my checkride. And I really hate this mnemonic. It's totally ridiculous, and is actually I think an impediment to remembering the required instruments. I think it would be much better to divide the required instruments into intuitive groups. So far I've got day VFR into four groups. I'll list them below. Anyone have a better way of studying this, or more intuitive groupings, or better name groups, or a way to incorporate the night VFR instruments?

These four main groups are easy to remember. Each one has three instruments, except for the safety group (think "extra" safety!).

Engine
Tachometer
Manifold pressure (each engine)
Temperature (liquid cooled engines)

Fluids
Oil temperature
Oil pressure
Fuel level

Orientation
Altimeter
Airspeed
Mag. heading

Safety
Seat belts
ELT
Anti-collision lights (after 1996)
Landing gear position indicator
 
However your brain works best. A TOMATO FLAMES worked for me. It did come up on my oral, so you need to know it.
 
Yoo da man!

Anything logical would be better than than silly-ass gouge.

asechrest said:
Hello all.

I'm running through the PTS another time before my checkride. And I really hate this mnemonic. It's totally ridiculous, and is actually I think an impediment to remembering the required instruments. I think it would be much better to divide the required instruments into intuitive groups. So far I've got day VFR into four groups. I'll list them below. Anyone have a better way of studying this, or more intuitive groupings, or better name groups, or a way to incorporate the night VFR instruments?

These four main groups are easy to remember. Each one has three instruments, except for the safety group (think "extra" safety!).

Engine
Tachometer
Manifold pressure (each engine)
Temperature (liquid cooled engines)

Fluids
Oil temperature
Oil pressure
Fuel level

Orientation
Altimeter
Airspeed
Mag. heading

Safety
Seat belts
ELT
Anti-collision lights (after 1996)
Landing gear position indicator
Click to expand...
 
Why memorize them? It's not something that has to be known on a time-critical basis. Meaning, any time you will ever have to know it, you'll have time to check the POH's equipment list and the FARs if necessary.
 
Manifold for each altitude engine
 
ateamer said:
Why memorize them? It's not something that has to be known on a time-critical basis. Meaning, any time you will ever have to know it, you'll have time to check the POH's equipment list and the FARs if necessary.
Click to expand...

For the oral part of the practical.
 
I used ATOMS squared ELF (AATTOOMMSS ELF). Seems easier to me to remember with two of the same letter next to each other.
 
Use whatever works for you. I tend to do very poorly with rote memorization and figuring out the why works best for me.
 
ateamer said:
Why memorize them? It's not something that has to be known on a time-critical basis. Meaning, any time you will ever have to know it, you'll have time to check the POH's equipment list and the FARs if necessary.
Click to expand...

I had heard this was one to commit to memory. I think I can envision situations where an instrument fails without access to the FAR/AIM and I need to know whether I'm airworthy. Like, in the air, perhaps?
 
asechrest said:
I had heard this was one to commit to memory. I think I can envision situations where an instrument fails without access to the FAR/AIM and I need to know whether I'm airworthy. Like, in the air, perhaps?
Click to expand...
If you're in the air and figure out you're no longer airworthy, why would you care?
 
asechrest said:
I had heard this was one to commit to memory. I think I can envision situations where an instrument fails without access to the FAR/AIM and I need to know whether I'm airworthy. Like, in the air, perhaps?
Click to expand...

It matters before launch. If you are in the air and you re concerned about the safety of the flight, you should land.
 
DaleB said:
If you're in the air and figure out you're no longer airworthy, why would you care?
Click to expand...

"<insert instrument> failed in flight. Do I fly past the airport below me and continue to my destination, or do I land immediately?" :dunno:

I'm really just doing what I was told. I'd tend to agree most situations would allow me to look up the required instruments.
 
asechrest said:
"<insert instrument> failed in flight. Do I fly past the airport below me and continue to my destination, or do I land immediately?" :dunno:

I'm really just doing what I was told. I'd tend to agree most situations would allow me to look up the required instruments.
Click to expand...

I taped 91.205 along with a couple other things (cloud clearances) to my kneeboard. Didn't see any reason to commit these to memory - and have never been presented with a good reason.

If something does fail in flight, to your point, it's more important to know the "why" than what was required to take off with (e.g. If a seat belt breaks in flight, does it matter when you land?)
 
For more than 10 years I have periodically done an informal survey online and when giving checkouts and flight reviews. The result? Those who learned this useless acronym were more likely to get a simple inoperative equipment question wrong than those who didn't.

It's useful to answer only one question: "what is the most useless mnemonic student pilots are asked to learn?"
 
Last edited:
asechrest said:
I had heard this was one to commit to memory. I think I can envision situations where an instrument fails without access to the FAR/AIM and I need to know whether I'm airworthy. Like, in the air, perhaps?
Click to expand...
This mnemonic will not answer the question for you.

What if you get to your airplane and during your preflight you test it find the stall warning horn doesn't work. Can you legally fly? Why or why not? (Teaching moment.)
 
Ahhh, TOMATO FLAMES. Those were the days... Now I just keep the FAR/AIM app on my phone and know that the info is located in 91.205.
 
asechrest said:
Hello all.

I'm running through the PTS another time before my checkride. And I really hate this mnemonic. It's totally ridiculous, and is actually I think an impediment to remembering the required instruments. I think it would be much better to divide the required instruments into intuitive groups. So far I've got day VFR into four groups. I'll list them below. Anyone have a better way of studying this, or more intuitive groupings, or better name groups, or a way to incorporate the night VFR instruments?

These four main groups are easy to remember. Each one has three instruments, except for the safety group (think "extra" safety!).

Engine
Tachometer
Manifold pressure (each engine)
Temperature (liquid cooled engines)

Fluids
Oil temperature
Oil pressure
Fuel level

Orientation
Altimeter
Airspeed
Mag. heading

Safety
Seat belts
ELT
Anti-collision lights (after 1996)
Landing gear position indicator
Click to expand...

FOES!! There's a new mnemonic to memorize now!! :D
 
asechrest said:
I had heard this was one to commit to memory. I think I can envision situations where an instrument fails without access to the FAR/AIM and I need to know whether I'm airworthy. Like, in the air, perhaps?
Click to expand...

If it fails in flight the airplane is no longer airworthy? How would you land?:dunno:
 
RotorAndWing said:
If it fails in flight the airplane is no longer airworthy? How would you land?:dunno:
Click to expand...

You can't. It would be in violation of the FARs. You would need to get an A&P to fix the problem prior to landing.

11534343.jpg


propcopy.jpg
 
Last edited:
There is no need at all to memorize 91.205(d). None whatsoever. If the question comes up on a practical test, you pull out the FAR's and look it up rather than relying on memory, since this is not a question requiring immediate action in flight. Same for the real world.
 
asechrest said:
I had heard this was one to commit to memory. I think I can envision situations where an instrument fails without access to the FAR/AIM and I need to know whether I'm airworthy. Like, in the air, perhaps?
Click to expand...
This is not an inflight issue, this is a preflight issue. Note that this Task is in the PTS under Area I "Preflight Preparation". As such, you have the time and convenience to look it up. Don't clutter your brain memorizing things like that.
 
asechrest said:
"<insert instrument> failed in flight. Do I fly past the airport below me and continue to my destination, or do I land immediately?" :dunno:
Click to expand...
You make a prudent choice based on the situation, and if landing is appropriate, you land as soon as practical, not as soon as possible. See 14 CFR 91.7(b).
I'm really just doing what I was told.
Click to expand...
Next time someone tells you something this arbitrary, ask them to justify their answer.
I'd tend to agree most situations would allow me to look up the required instruments.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're smarter than whoever told you that. In any event, for the practical test, it's a preflight issue, so you will be able to look it up. Note that per 91.213, you also need to check the aircraft certification data and the AFM/POH in order to determine whether that item is required in the Limitations/Kinds of Operations section -- you going to memorize that, too? No way.
 
Ron Levy said:
Next time someone tells you something this arbitrary, ask them to justify their answer.
Click to expand...
The answer is, "because the Examiner I use asks for the mnemonic."

True story: My student reviewed his checkride aircraft logs the morning of his checkride and found that the latest "annual" had not been signed by an IA. It had happened months ago and my student was the first to catch it.

After we changed airplanes (and re-checked), I told my student to make sure he told the examiner what happened. I stayed near enough to hear that he did.

After my student passed I called the examiner. He told me my student did great but, "He didn't know TOMATO FLAMES!" he said with shock.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, all, for the info.

Noted:

  • Pre-flight issue, not in-flight
  • There's more to the story than tomatoes
  • My examiner may expect it to be memorized

Mark: I believe I've read your feelings about this in another forum. Because my notes in the margin of the PTS read:

"Check tomato flames, check 91.213, check POH equipment list."

I think I'll go ahead and memorize it anyway, since my method makes that easy for me and it's possible my examiner may want me to recite it from memory. But I do see now that the situations in which it would be needed would allow me to look it up.
 
asechrest said:
Thanks, all, for the info.

Noted:

  • Pre-flight issue, not in-flight
  • There's more to the story than tomatoes
  • My examiner may expect it to be memorized

Mark: I believe I've read your feelings about this in another forum. Because my notes in the margin of the PTS read:

"Check tomato flames, check 91.213, check POH equipment list."

I think I'll go ahead and memorize it anyway, since my method makes that easy for me and it's possible my examiner may want me to recite it from memory. But I do see now that the situations in which it would be needed would allow me to look it up.
Click to expand...
Glad I could help, wherever you saw it. Great. So you know the answer to my test question; may have even seen it before.
 
Human memory is an interesting thing to ponder. Superficially there is at least a storage action and a recollection action. Both need to work, really I have no idea how to optimize either, there must be research out there.

Settings and emotional state certainly affect these processes and nothing says its the same for everyone.

Im 57, my job and hobby fascinations drive me to drink from the firehose of knowledge daily.

This week, I came into work on a monday and there were two airplanes that had been out of service for avionics problems for two days. So for each there were thousands of words of troubleshooting history, maint reports, log reports and running engineering requests across the three reporting systems I'm supposed to monitor continuously.

The shift going off dutifully dumps off stacks of schematics, wiring diagrams and maintenance data off in running turnover briefings on the current working theories behind the faults. The onboard computers sometimes just stop getting along with each other.

The team coordination calls start in an hour and will be spaced 30 minutes apart, there are two completely different fleet support teams involved. All the other phones ring and have to be answered while I'm on these calls because they could be about a new AOG that we can get out on time with the fast release of an EA. Department manager breifing is in an hour, carry the cell.

Why doesn't an iPad let you delete in both directions?

I sit there for 10 hours just trying not to fall behind, really only able to add something when things sound way over the top, and it goes on that way for the shift. Out of 10 hours, I get a broken few to try and understand the possible failure modes. After 4 days of that i go to pick up where I left off with my review for the commercial written and it seems like it was a million years ago, and really I just want to go fly maneuvers anyway.

I now believe the human mind is like a cluttered garage. You may be able to keep stuffing things in there, but finding things after they have stored can take some time.

Its now my Saturday, Good luck on the check ride.
 
midlifeflyer said:
What if you get to your airplane and during your preflight you test it find the stall warning horn doesn't work. Can you legally fly? Why or why not? (Teaching moment.)
Click to expand...

I am going to GUESS yes you can still fly.

My gut says if I know what Vs and Vso are and I am not pulling Gs I can keep the plane in the air.

I don't know the real answer and would love to know though
 
John221us said:
That's what I thought, but the DPE said, "John, this isn't an open book test".
Click to expand...
I was asked, I missed one of the items, DPE corrected me and we continued. You don't have to be perfect, but if he asks you are the required instruments and you respond with guitar and harmonica :D you may be in trouble. IR (GRAB CARD) adds to the list, you basically have to respond with the entire equipment list, including the clock.
For others:
http://www.scottsasha.com/aviation/acronyms.html
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am going to GUESS yes you can still fly.

My gut says if I know what Vs and Vso are and I am not pulling Gs I can keep the plane in the air.

I don't know the real answer and would love to know though
Click to expand...
When I do the informal survey, I don't count "I don't know" as a wrong answer.

The answer, which I will get to in a moment, is the reason I hate this acronym above all others. Look through this thread; as far as I can tell, only one person said something about looking at the POH equipment list. Most made some reference to 91.205, the reg TF is trying to get you to memorize. That's the problem - memorizing the mnemonic leads one to believe 91.205 is the be all and end all of equipment requirements.

It's not. Look at 91.213(d) - that's the reg that tells you about inoperative equipment without a MEL and 91.205 is only one of the things 91.213(d) tells us to look at. And pretty low down the list at that.

The answer?

The typical "wrong" answer to my question is "Well, it's not in TOMATO FLAMES, so it's OK." [Sound of "wrong!" game show buzzer going off.]

If you're flying in a Cessna 172, look at the manufacturer's equipment list in section 6 of the POH. You'll find the stall warning horn listed the a "R" by that part number - meaning that it's required equipment and therefore must be operational under 91.213(d)(2)(ii).
 
Last edited:
Know a few of them - know where to find it in your copy of CFR 14 and that's plenty good enough. It's a huge myth that you need to memorize all that crap. You're more likely to screw up a checkride by trying to repeat things from memory that don't need to be repeated from memory.
 
jesse said:
That's total crap.
Click to expand...

OK.... how should I have responded to the DPE? It did happen and it was specifically about the minimum equipment list (my Cherokee does not have an MEL, so A TOMATO FLAMES applied). Obviously it wasn't a complete deal breaker for the oral, but he would not let me look it up (I had been assured by my CFI and a couple others that I could, hence the attempt). I was a bit embarrassed for trying, at the time.
 
John221us said:
OK.... how should I have responded to the DPE? It did happen and it was specifically about the minimum equipment list (my Cherokee does not have an MEL, so A TOMATO FLAMES applied). Obviously it wasn't a complete deal breaker for the oral, but he would not let me look it up (I had been assured by my CFI and a couple others that I could, hence the attempt). I was a bit embarrassed for trying, at the time.
Click to expand...
Well you got by so you must have done the right thing. If a student told me the DPE did that I'd talk to the DPE about it. If they couldn't see the light I wouldn't be sending any students to them anymore. If they failed someone for not having 91.205 entirely memorized and refused to let them look it up I'd be sending a complaint up the chain.
 
John221us said:
That's what I thought, but the DPE said, "John, this isn't an open book test".
Click to expand...

The appropriate response is "this is a practical test, and should I find inop equipment during preflight, I will look it up in the POH that is required to be in the aircraft"

DPEs are wrong sometimes.

There is no way on God's green earth the examiner can make a reasonable argument that required equipment be known by memory.

Quick. In your late-model 172, you discover the pilot's seat is broken during preflight. Is the aircraft airworthy? Does it make a difference if it's the right seat instead?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am going to GUESS yes you can still fly.

My gut says if I know what Vs and Vso are and I am not pulling Gs I can keep the plane in the air.

I don't know the real answer and would love to know though
Click to expand...

I don't know about your Tampico, but if you were flying a 172, you'd be wrong.

It's not in 91.205, but it IS listed in the POH as required equipment for certification, for 172N and later models (at least).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top