A few questions for you all from a beggining pilot

D

dejavu

Guest
Hi all,

just want to say I am loving the forum here. I think its a great little community here. Well, I started the Utah State flight program in January, and have been loving the flight training. Along the way I have had a few questions that I thought you all might be able to help me with.

Flying is as you all know very expensive, especially for students like me. What kind of financing did you all use? Loans? Military? Rich Family? Just wondering, because I have looked into the military and decided that its not for me, and will probably be taking out a loan this summer.

Just wondering of those that fly as a career what kind of things you do now and what you did before getting your start?

Lastly, what are some general tips for check rides and the FAA testing?

Thanks and much appreciated fellas!
 
As far as financing, unless you are going to a college with an aviation program PAY AS YOU GO. There are WAY to many horror stories of the other methods.
As for checkride tips, do a search here for "captain levy's checkride advice". About as good as it gets for that one.

Mark B.
 
What does a private license cost these days, 6K?
It's a lot of dough.
But at the same time, it's not.

Compare this 6K to other things you will buy in your lifetime that will cost 6K. Some folks spend easily that much on unnecessary luxuries in a year (cigs/drink/sodas/movies/i-this or i-that etc)
If you can go without those luxuries for a year, it will bring a lifetime of (clean wholesome) joy! not to mention an interesting career. (I realize it may not completely apply to a student's sitch)

(Feel free to expand the concept to higher ratings and certificates)
 
Somebody once told me, if you wait until you can afford it, then you'll never do it. That's all I needed. That being said, when I feel guilty about just how much fun it is, I justify the expense by saying it will further my career (I'm in the aviation biz). Good luck! :wink2:
 
You will hear many people say "save up half the money" or something.

I disagree. I did it, making about $11/hr I believe, by paying for each lesson as I went. Paycheck to paycheck, eat Ramen and Mac n Cheese.

And keep your job. Use Flight Simulator to keep your memory fresh on stuff, but don't use it to completely learn stuff, because you'll probably learn it wrong (at least for Private stuff).

I flew 1-2 hour lessons each time except for necessary long ones (like the cross country, etc). Once you solo, it becomes less expensive because you're no longer paying for the lump of clothes in the right seat anymore (at reputable flight schools at least, they don't charge). So make sure you learn as much as you can alone, since its cheaper.

Finally, never turn down an opportunity to make money, even if its a waste of your time. Mow someone's lawn? That's probably a $50 comeup. That's almost a half hour at most flight schools....see what I mean?
 
SkyHog said:
You will hear many people say "save up half the money" or something.

I disagree. I did it, making about $11/hr I believe, by paying for each lesson as I went. Paycheck to paycheck, eat Ramen and Mac n Cheese.

And keep your job. Use Flight Simulator to keep your memory fresh on stuff, but don't use it to completely learn stuff, because you'll probably learn it wrong (at least for Private stuff).

I flew 1-2 hour lessons each time except for necessary long ones (like the cross country, etc). Once you solo, it becomes less expensive because you're no longer paying for the lump of clothes in the right seat anymore (at reputable flight schools at least, they don't charge). So make sure you learn as much as you can alone, since its cheaper.

Finally, never turn down an opportunity to make money, even if its a waste of your time. Mow someone's lawn? That's probably a $50 comeup. That's almost a half hour at most flight schools....see what I mean?
Click to expand...

I was making 40% of what I am now when I got my private certificate. I did it paycheck to paycheck and lived dirt cheap and didn't really eat. You can do it.
 
As Dave Taylor mentioned, the little things do add up. I see people buy breakfast coming to work ($3), buy lunch ($5)- this comes to $40/week. I have cereal and bring my own lunch ($10 for both for the week). I also skip the Starbucks. This pays for the flying time (1 hour every 3-4 weeks).
 
How do you make $1,000,000 in aviation?

Start with $2,000,000...


Trapper John
 
dejavu said:
just want to say I am loving the forum here. I think its a great little community here.
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Glad to have you aboard, and hope you find it useful.
Flying is as you all know very expensive, especially for students like me. What kind of financing did you all use?
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Summer jobs in college got me through CFI back when you could rent a C-150 for $11/hour and you could go all the way through Commercial and CFI in a C-150. After that, the flying paid for itself.
Just wondering of those that fly as a career what kind of things you do now and what you did before getting your start?
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Let's see...
1973-1977 Naval Flight Officer
1977-1980 p/t Grad student, p/t CFI/charter pilot, p/t ANG RF-4 WSO
1980-1988 USAF F-111 WSO
1988-2000 Aircraft survivability engineer, aircraft owner/pilot, p/t CFI, p/t aviation magazine writer
2000-2005 University aviation program director, p/t aviation magazine writer
2006-now Flight instructor and aviation magazine writer.
Lastly, what are some general tips for check rides and the FAA testing?
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When you're close to your checkride, ask again, and I'll post my advice.
 
I took on a second job and dedicated that money to my flight training. It took me 10.5 months from the first lesson to check ride. This was almost 5 years ago. The cost is different for each area of the country. Here in SW Missouri you can still get your PPL for about $4500.00 to $5000.00. If you can do it in the 40-50 hour range. I took my check ride at 47 hours with a total cost of $3800.00. That includes all study material and testing and check ride fees.
 
I got my license when I was in engineering college. Like much of my education, student loans paid for the two classes to get my private.

I would be cautious about racking up a ton of debt to become an commercial or ATP pilot. It is notoriously difficult to make a proper living in the aviation industry, and there are periods where it can be difficult to find aviation related work at all (I suspect right now might be one of them). Having said that... like anything else - there will always be pilots who with the right combination of hard work, dedication, and luck find a way to make a great living.
 
nyoung said:
I would be cautious about racking up a ton of debt to become an commercial or ATP pilot.
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Very good advice.

It is notoriously difficult to make a proper living in the aviation industry, and there are periods where it can be difficult to find aviation related work at all (I suspect right now might be one of them).
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This is a very true statement. Having said that, NOW is the time to work on getting the ratings. That way, when the hiring resumes, one would be better positioned to take advantage.
 
Either save up the money or do it lesson to lesson. There are advantages to both.

Lesson to lesson gets you flying now, and so you get experience over a greater length of time. This is valuable.

Saving up money and doing it all at once gets your rating done faster, with fewer hours, at a lower overall cost. This means more money later to fly.

If you generally keep a philosophy of any idle time is wasted (and try to fill as much of that time with things that earn you money as possible), you should be alright. When I was in college, if I wasn't doing school work I was trying to make money, and had a few gigs that worked out pretty well for me given my resources and abilities. Had I been more intelligent about spending (and not had a fear of planes at the time), I would certainly have had enough money to get my private (and probably instrument) over the course of my time at college. I would agree to not bother getting loans, especially if you plan on getting a career in aviation.

And the Captain Levy's Checkride Advice is good advice, having done four check rides in the past year.

Most of all, welcome to PoA and good luck with your training! :)
 
dejavu said:
Hi all,

just want to say I am loving the forum here. I think its a great little community here. Well, I started the Utah State flight program in January, and have been loving the flight training. Along the way I have had a few questions that I thought you all might be able to help me with.

Flying is as you all know very expensive, especially for students like me. What kind of financing did you all use? Loans? Military? Rich Family? Just wondering, because I have looked into the military and decided that its not for me, and will probably be taking out a loan this summer.
Click to expand...

OK, you could finance your training. But then what?

What is your objective for flying? Just like to do it? Determined to end up in the left seat of a 7n7?

Consider this- if you just want to fly, it really doesn't matter if you have your ticket or not. Training, solo pattern work, $100 hamburgers, other GFR flights (Go For Ride) - it's all flying. You don't want to be in the position of financing your ticket but then not being able to afford to use it. Fly if / when you can - enjoy the privileges you earn along the way (solo, cross country, certificate) without worrying about how much it will get to a paricular point in the process.

Look for low cost options. Dunno what is around you in Utah, but some clubs (particularly glider clubs) can be very low cost but require significant ammounts of your time (particularly glider clubs).
http://ssa.org/sport/wheretofly.asp
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
OK, you could finance your training. But then what?

What is your objective for flying? Just like to do it? Determined to end up in the left seat of a 7n7?

Consider this- if you just want to fly, it really doesn't matter if you have your ticket or not. Training, solo pattern work, $100 hamburgers, other GFR flights (Go For Ride) - it's all flying. You don't want to be in the position of financing your ticket but then not being able to afford to use it. Fly if / when you can - enjoy the privileges you earn along the way (solo, cross country, certificate) without worrying about how much it will get to a paricular point in the process.

Look for low cost options. Dunno what is around you in Utah, but some clubs (particularly glider clubs) can be very low cost but require significant ammounts of your time (particularly glider clubs).
http://ssa.org/sport/wheretofly.asp
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This is good advise, what are you looking to do with your ticket? I would say that the majority of people here do not fly for a living, but use it for business or just for personal transportation or fun. If you are looking to go the fun route, there are cheaper ways of doing it. (Lightsport, Glider, Recreational etc)
 
Wow thanks for all the tips guys.

I am going through a program at a university. My goal is to get a 4-year degree and hopefully end up someday at a big airliner.

It sounds like so far financing is probably not the best idea, but here all of my instructors of done so. After 4 years of training and tuition it can add up to $50,000 to $60,000. I don't see me myself making that money in 4 years. So far I spent all my savings I had on tuition and housing, and then borrowed about 4000 from my parents for flying. And I am only about half way through stage 2.
 
dejavu said:
Wow thanks for all the tips guys.

I am going through a program at a university. My goal is to get a 4-year degree and hopefully end up someday at a big airliner.

It sounds like so far financing is probably not the best idea, but here all of my instructors of done so. After 4 years of training and tuition it can add up to $50,000 to $60,000. I don't see me myself making that money in 4 years. So far I spent all my savings I had on tuition and housing, and then borrowed about 4000 from my parents for flying. And I am only about half way through stage 2.
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My first CFI was just out of college and had almost $100K in student loans. He finally got a job with an airline in 2006 making about $22K fly right seat in turboprops. He moved up to jets and six months ago he was furloughed and he is now roofing houses. Spend the $60K and become an attorney.:rolleyes2:
 
The flying bug didn't hit me until later, when I was better able to try to afford it (I won't lie and say "I can afford it" :lol: )

But I have made conscious choices to give up other luxuries so as to be able to almost afford this one. For me it falls within a set of priorities. I still travel quite a bit but usually stay on the cheap; we own a car and a truck but they aren't the latest, shiniest model (one has more than 130k on it but I still like it); my housing is nice enough and well appointed but not ostentatious (except for the views) and is proportional to our income I think; eating out is very much the exception not the rule etc etc etc. We would probably do this anyway and have a boat if I wasn't flying :wink2:

BTW Even though I had scholarships I worked 20 hour weeks during school and full time every summer except for one.
 
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Very good information and advice so far.

Four typical routes:

1) Military (8 to 10-year commitment)

2) Rich (You personally or Parents, Grants, Gifts, etc)

3) Borrow a bunch of money (keep in mind, difficult pay back at $20 - $30 K entry-level First-Officer pay)

4) Grind it out as best you can (get a job, dispatcher, wash planes, acft refueler, scholarships, flight-instruct, etc.)

During my early training, I had a friend / classmate who was 40-years old, a moderately successful aerospace-engineer. Chasing the dream, he wanted to become an Airline Pilot.

This classmate earned his private certificate, but his "DREAM" basically died, when he eventually realized it would take around 4-years to get all the certificates (Private ASEL through Com Multi, CFI, etc) plus the 1,000 to 1,500 Total-Flight-Hours, 100-hours of which are Multi-Engine, ..... just to qualify for a $25K/year job as a First-Officer on a Regional-Jet for another 2 to 5-years.

This is followed by a few more years at $50 - $70K as Captain/PIC in RJ's to finally qualify for a job with a Major Airline. Roughly ten-years of zero to low/medium-income and not all that secure, as you might lose your medical, get furloughed, burned-out, etc.

My own ambitions were more modest, but I figured I would just see where things led me (possibilities: CFI, classroom college teacher/professor, government, agricultural, tour-plane pilot, airline pilot, or just fun / personal use.)

As for my path, though I was older (had my B.S Business Admin.) and had some money, I dispatched planes in exchange for flight hours, plus received lots of help from family toward acft rental/fuel costs, cross-countries and even cash gifts, etc, to pay for my training.

Did my Private through Commercial-Single training (375-Hours in 23-months) at a local community college (Mt. SAC, Walnut, Calif.) that had its own 5-Acft flight school (Acft rental/lessons were 1/3 cheaper than local Privately-owned flight schools.) Also wound up with two A.S.-Degrees (Commercial Flight and Aviation Science.)

One thing... Beware about paying a flight-school a bunch of money in advance....

Some schools Fail or simply close and run away with your money. I've seen it happen.

Example: Silver State Helicopters. They had students pay $70K in advance or through G.I. Bill, loans, etc for Private through CFI and Rotorcraft (Helicopter) certificate ratings. They went belly-up, closed a year or so back, leaving everyone who paid / received loans holding the bag.

Good Luck.
 
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dejavu said:
Hi all,

just want to say I am loving the forum here. I think its a great little community here. Well, I started the Utah State flight program in January, and have been loving the flight training. Along the way I have had a few questions that I thought you all might be able to help me with.

Flying is as you all know very expensive, especially for students like me. What kind of financing did you all use? Loans? Military? Rich Family? Just wondering, because I have looked into the military and decided that its not for me, and will probably be taking out a loan this summer.

Just wondering of those that fly as a career what kind of things you do now and what you did before getting your start?

Lastly, what are some general tips for check rides and the FAA testing?

Thanks and much appreciated fellas!
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Never financed a dime, paid as I went, luckily I had a job that had excellent tips which also bought me an airplane.

I mostly run yachts anymore, but the flying that I do do is either utility or business flying. I have flown Ag, pipeline, repos for banks, seizures for government agencies and did 3 months on the line for NW Airlink back in the days when it payed better than now, and it was not near enough.

Checkride, RELAX The examiner does not want to fail you, they get their business by referrals from CFIs, if they fail too many, they quit getting called. On the oral, they typically will ask multiple questions in the same vein, each more in depth and obscure than the last. If you can do the first three, you're golden. When he gets to the one you don't know, DO NOT even try to BS your way through it. The answer to any question you don't know is "I'm not sure on that. I'd have to look in <insert reference book here>". You do need to know the answer at least the first two with no reference though. Also study all the chart symbols. Oh, one gotcha with 152s and planning your XC, watch the weight and fuel. Often times they will send you to a destination that will require more fuel than you have the useful load for. I ended up planning mine with a fuel stop since I would have taken off about 40 over gross with the weight he gave me. When he asked why I had planned to an airport other than the requested (I had worked each leg on a separate form and he looked at only the top one) I told him "Because you're too heavy to make the poor little plane do it in one leg" and I showed him the other form. As for the flight check, you have not failed the ride unless they tell you you failed the ride, and they have to tell you as soon as they have decided to fail you. So until they say so, relax, you're passing. If you screw up a maneuver, as soon as you screw up, recover to a safe condition immediately as you tell them "I screwed that up" and what/how/why you screwed up and ask if you can do that over. There will be a point in the ride where the DE will go into teaching mode, now you can really relax, you've passed in their mind and you really need to screw the pooch after that to fail.

Oh yeah, get a good nights sleep
 
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I did my training at UVCC down in Provo (Now UVU) in 1989. I ended up finishing at Dixie College in St. George. Due to weather scheduling became an big issue trying to get the lessons done in a timely manner. Flying in Utah is a great place to learn.

To pay for my training I put everything in my life on hold, drove an old car, ate as cheaply as possible, worked two jobs while going to school full time. I worked two jobs all summer long each summer. I used up all of my student loans for my tuition and what was left over paid to the flight school.

No wealthy parents to fund my way through. It hurts pretty bad to make it on your own, but get used to being broke because your first 5 to 7 years in the industry won't be much better. When you start making okay money you will still be paying off your student loans.

If I could go back, I would have just gotten a BS degree in business and used my student loans and a little extra to buy a 152 and fly the crap out of it. Then just rent a 172RG for the CFI and rent a Seminole to do the Multi IFR Commercial and CFII. It would have been cheaper in the long run.
 
dejavu said:
Wow thanks for all the tips guys.

I am going through a program at a university. My goal is to get a 4-year degree and hopefully end up someday at a big airliner.

It sounds like so far financing is probably not the best idea, but here all of my instructors of done so. After 4 years of training and tuition it can add up to $50,000 to $60,000. I don't see me myself making that money in 4 years. So far I spent all my savings I had on tuition and housing, and then borrowed about 4000 from my parents for flying. And I am only about half way through stage 2.
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Now we're getting somewhere. Ask those rocket scientists if they have calculated the payback.
 
Bah. You won't get a 4 year degree and all your ratings for $50,000 at an aviation college. Try doubling that.
 
jesse said:
Bah. You won't get a 4 year degree and all your ratings for $50,000 at an aviation college. Try doubling that.
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yea, and the degree is nearly worthless. however, for 50Kish you can go through a community college pt. 141 program and take some gen eds at half price, then transfer to a real college and get a real degree.
 
I got my private ASEL and Glider while going to college (engineering) and delivering Pizza using the Pay as you go system. The military paid 60% of my instrument and I took out a loan for the Commercial and CFI. Once I had the CFI I was making enough money teaching part time to pay off the loans and add some more ratings.

I am not a big fan of going into debt but education and a house are two exceptions.

I am typically not a huge fan of college programs, particularly the aviation colleges. I would prefer a college that just had an aviation program. Any four year degree is worth something and my contacts in the airline industry tell me you won't go very far in the industry without one.

My biggest mistake was not taking out the loans for to get the CFI sooner, it was at that point that I started to get some return on my investment.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
LearDriver said:
If I could go back, I would have just gotten a BS degree in business and used my student loans and a little extra to buy a 152 and fly the crap out of it. Then just rent a 172RG for the CFI and rent a Seminole to do the Multi IFR Commercial and CFII. It would have been cheaper in the long run.
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Best advice I've heard yet! :yes:

If you don't think you can buy an airplane, find out if there's a glider club near you (http://www.ssa.org/). Buy a glider, get rated as quick as you can, fly the hell out of it. No gas, no engine to maintain, and you can find used gliders really cheap. Once you have your private-asel and instrument, most of the rest of the time you need before the commercial is just plain old flying time.

The airplane route may well be easier (don't have to find tow pilots, can fly all year long, etc.), this is just another one.

Oh, here's another vote for "change your major." You can get an airline job with ANY degree, but you can't get much else (during the down times) with an aviation degree. Plus, collegiate flight programs often charge a LOT more money than renting a 152 at a local mom-and-pop FBO. Since you're already at school, that's the best advice I can give you. (Tony's program would have been better, had you asked us a year ago! :yes:)
 
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