A couple of questions from a new PPL

[dlsmith]

This normal. Anytime you are doing something for the first time in a plane, exercise caution. After getting my cert, I would do pattern work on marginal days to get an idea about what it meant to fly in it.

POA seems to be in a crabby mood lately especially with regard to new pilots asking questions.

What you experienced is normal.
Maybe make some more flights like this but solo and establish a min for yourself based on how your comfort level changes.

Good question

Totally agree with this. Don't get outside of your limits, and don't take risks. Don't abuse Class G weather minimums (not that I would ever do such a thing :wink2, but the weather you mentioned will be fairly normal.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes I was with NorCal the whole way. Part of my stress was that at times I was low enough that they were losing radar contact and I was losing radio contact.

Happens ALL the time at low altitude. Remember, the point of NorCal around there is to coordinate inside Class C, not under it. It's a license to learn….

I don't know why you were trying to stay out of Class C. Unless you've been instructed to stay out, if you're talking to NorCal, you can just blast in. It's not Class B.

 

[jspilot]

Hey folks!

So I just was given my temporary airmen certificate on Friday and I made sure to plan my first passenger flight the very next day. I usually fly out of a somewhat busy Class D that's far away from any Class C or B airspace.

As my first flight I may have bitten off more than I could chew. I flew from my home airport to another Class D below the Class B finals corridor and surrounded by two Class C airports. Intense stuff! While I was definitely ready for the work load of the airspace, I was not ready for what FEW025 or SCT028 looked like in real life. I almost always flew to the north from my training airport and hadn't ventured south much or had seen clouds this low. This brought my Class E cloud separation from a vague number I memorized into reality.

I must admit, this was kind of scary at times. Turbulence increased near clouds (I was always 5-800ft away) and the ground was definitely getting closer sometimes. I made it through with some frayed nerves, but I wasn't sure if this was me just experiencing something completely new for the first time and freaking out or if I was actually an idiot and shouldn't have flown in this weather.

My questions are these:

- When you first got your license, did you feel like you were on edge because of going somewhere new that challenges your ability to juggle?
- Would you have gone flying with cloud layers this low? Is this something that I shouldn't be scared of?

Thanks in advance!

It's called a license to learn for a reason...the learning never stops. The first trip I took after getting my PPL I went to HFD( Hartford). I took off and skies were clear with light winds. I went up to HFD landed and took back off only to have to dodge snow squalls and fight heavy turbulence on the way back with my Mom aboard throwing up the whole time from air sickness. I ended up landing in an 18 knot wind about 40 degrees from the runway... Would I do that trip again? Heck no... Would I take a passenger along, no chance! So my point is, you gain experience over time. My advice, start of slow and learn what the freedom of a PPL brings with it and the associated decision making. It takes time but I'm about to start my 4th year flying with my PPl this year. I feel more confident now.

To answer your questions about the clouds-- no I would not fly with a scattered 2,800 for the reason you mentioned. It's guaranteed to be turbulent with the clouds that low around this time of year. A trick to check turbulence is to check the winds aloft. Anything above 15kts winds aloft and turbulence will probably be a slight factor. Above 25 and it will be a factor. Above 40 and its not a good flying day in my judgement.

 

[nosehair]

That is useful for sure, but wouldn't it be better to have them focus on adeqaute flight planning and getting a thorough briefing before flying?

Good preflight planning is a given. Of course that should be emphasized.
But no amount of planning will guarantee a weather free flight.
Like cross-wind landings, student pilots and rated pilots should also have the experience and skills to survive the unexpected.

 

[MAKG1]

To answer your questions about the clouds-- no I would not fly with a scattered 2,800 for the reason you mentioned. It's guaranteed to be turbulent with the clouds that low around this time of year. A trick to check turbulence is to check the winds aloft. Anything above 15kts winds aloft and turbulence will probably be a slight factor. Above 25 and it will be a factor. Above 40 and its not a good flying day in my judgement.

Around here, clouds do not usually mean turbulence. But a 2800 foot ceiling is quite constraining due to the terrain. It's fine for flying across San Jose. But crossing mountains is not good. Many of the mountains are higher than that.

The exception is if you see a few puffy clouds hanging around the ridge lines, you're going to get knocked around a bit. But most of the turbulence is mechanical and occurs in clear air. I've experienced moderate turbulence once locally, and it was with a 40 knot north wind blowing over the Oakland Hills. It was smooth as a baby's bottom around the Peninsula, but bang-your-head-on-the-ceiling nasty just south of Oakland at 1400.

 

[Vance Breese]

That's where knowledge and common sense comes into play.

If its P6SM 5 plus spread with 3k OVC, there is ZERO reason to scrub a local area flight.

I've fired up when I knew the weather was getting bad quick with a student. I knew before takeoff via would drop to below mins, sure enough we fuel up, fire up, run up, I say "how far were those hills to the east again" he looks over and they were gone. Shutdown and went back for lunch. The lesson he learned, VERY valuable.

It went from 5sm to 2sm, but how it did it would be very easy to get caught up in for a uneducated pilot. Again common sense and a little local knowledge or good met skills.

We have a divergence of opinion James.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
I am not familiar with the local weather patterns at PAO.
I am very familiar with the temperature/dew point spread.
The summer weather pattern at SMX is fog in the morning and wind in the afternoon.
The ceiling is usually but not always flat.
Oceano can be a problem.
San Carlos is seven miles to the North West of Palo Alto and according to the original poster it was “hard IFR with OVC003”.Concord is 32 miles north of Palo Alto.
The low ceiling combined with the nearby IMC and the deteriorating weather would have kept me from pressing on to Concord.
I work to not imagine that because something worked out that it was a good aviation decision to fly.
I fly for fun and have a low fear threshold.
As careful as I am I have had the ceiling close in more than once and I have had a very close look at the wires on the way to Watsonville near the slough.
I have tried three times to fly to Half Moon Bay and turned around each time because the fog was rolling in fast.I have not landed at Monterey for the same reason.
I missed a half day of the Aviation Expo at Palm Springs because of fog in the morning at Redlands.A local looked me in the eye and said; “Vance, rent a car and drive.”I finally got out at 11:10 when the ceiling reached 1,800 at nearby SBD.In my opinion it was legal but I didn’t feel comfortable flying over the unfamiliar rising terrain with the low ceiling.
The original poster asked for opinions about if I as a low time pilot would fly under those conditions and should he be scared.
I make an effort to avoid trepidation because it sucks the joy out of flying for me and I would not have launched under the described conditions.
That opportunity to fly would have been lost to me forever.

 

[somorris]

You did fine. I'll prob'ly get flamed for saying this but; when you're new you gotta' get out and push the limits a little or you'll never know where those limits are.
Anybody say's he's never been scared in an airplane is either a liar or else he hasn't flown much.

I agree with John.

 

[MAKG1]

The rule of thumb I use at PAO is that if I can see the top of Mission Peak from the field, the weather is sufficient to cross the mountains. That's about 7 miles vis and a bit under 4000 ceiling. Down to 2000 is adequate if not crossing mountains, but that's rather constraining.

I'll consider 4-5 miles vis if there are no clouds, but that condition is rare.

I don't like to scud run in a pass, especially with the OAK conga line directly overhead.

It's important to get the big picture. Weather over the Bay is very different from Concord, and Concord is almost always better.

Now, I was flying around yesterday, and found the weather completely adequate between Palo Alto and Tracy. I didn't go to Oakland or Concord, though.

 

[Texastaildragger]

You did fine. I'll prob'ly get flamed for saying this but; when you're new you gotta' get out and push the limits a little or you'll never know where those limits are.
Anybody say's he's never been scared in an airplane is either a liar or else he hasn't flown much.

This is why the PPL is called a license to LEARN. Bet you could hear your CFI in your head, couldn't you?