a bit different

[spiderweb]

I was out for some approach practice today with a new CFI. When we got back, I requested some pattern work. She had a new idea about bank angles in the pattern, and I wanted to see what you thought of it. She does twenty degrees from upwind to crosswind and 30 degrees from crosswind to downwind--both of which I do. But the two remaining turns she does at 15 degrees of bank, because she says it is both smoother and since it is low power, it is like slow flight. Thoughts?

 

[TMetzinger]

It's either slow flight or it isn't... Slow flight is dependent on power, not on airspeed. Certainly if you are slow and in the landing configuration, your turns from downwind to base and base to final will require less bank angle to complete a 90 degree turn in the same time as your previous turn from cross to downwind.

Certainly, if you make a 30 degree bank turn in the last two legs, you're not necessarily doing anything wrong, as long as you're maintaining your energy state. I usually do 30 degrees from downwind to base, and lose a fair amount of altitude in that turn (which keeps my energy and airspeed up), but much less is required for the turn to final.

So, I don't see anything "wrong" with what she does, and it's a good thing to think about.

 

[tonycondon]

i prefer to make at least 30 degree, fairly brisk turns in the pattern. just dont be stupid and be flying too slow. get the turn over and focus on the approach to landing.

 

[Teller1900]

I personally use 30 degrees all the way through unless strange winds or a need for a particularly wide pattern dictate otherwise. I think this is like most things in aviation...there are as many ways to do it as there are pilots doing it.

 

[AWACSEng]

This is one of those "it depends" topics.

 

[spiderweb]

Well, I do 20-30-30-20. The 30s are generally at a higher speed and altitude. The thing I didn't like about the 15 was how long the damn high wing was blocking my view of the runway. It would have been fine in the Saratoga. And I do see the point about how gentle it was, and how passengers would like that. But the stall speed doesn't go up much even at 30 degrees. If I'm flying a C172 at 70 KIAS, base to final, with 20 degrees bank, I'm way way covered. Once I turn final, its power off or nearly off, and full flaps and 60-65 KIAS.

That's just me though.

(PS Don't get me wrong, I liked my CFI today--she was very good and non-passive.)

 

[spiderweb]

The other thing I liked about my CFI today was that she commented on areas which others haven't much commented on. For example, she was a stickler on minimizing little wing rocking after a thermal. She noticed that I also overcorrected with rudder (almost unconsciously) after a thermal bump, and she helped me to do super smooth recoveries from the tiniest bumps. This is stuff that wouldn't bother pilots, but which passengers would really appreciate. I liked that.

 

[poadeleted20]

While I appreciate this instructor's intentions, I don't share her concern over the issue.

I don't really look at bank angle in the pattern -- I'm more concerned with angle of attack than angle of bank. Sure, if you get the plane really slow, roll it into a 30-degree bank, and hold the nose up, you're risking a stall. OTOH, if you don't g-load the plane by pulling hard, and keep the nose where it needs to be to keep your speed where it belongs, there's no risk at all with 30 or even 45 degrees of bank as long as you realize what that will do to your sink rate (which may require a fistful of throttle to handle).

All in all, I figure that if you fly the plane right, it's not an issue, and I'd rather have my trainees' heads up and eyes out looking at the airport and for other traffic than inside looking at the AI trying to decide whether they're at 15 or 20 degrees of bank.

 

[nosehair]

Slow flight is dependent on power, not on airspeed.

?? What does that mean ??

 

[nosehair]

if you get the plane really slow, roll it into a 30-degree bank, and hold the nose up, you're risking a stall. OTOH, if you don't g-load the plane by pulling hard, and keep the nose where it needs to be to keep your speed where it belongs, there's no risk at all with 30 or even 45 degrees of bank as long as you realize what that will do to your sink rate...

...and I'd rather have my trainees' heads up and eyes out looking at the airport and for other traffic than inside looking at the AI trying to decide whether they're at 15 or 20 degrees of bank.

 

[poadeleted20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger
Slow flight is dependent on power, not on airspeed.

?? What does that mean ??

I, too, would like to hear an elucidation on that thought.

 

[bkreager]

I too would rather have my students looking outside and flying the airplane than looking at the instruments thinking about what bank angle they should be at where. Just fly the airplane.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

For Private Pilot candidates, 20 degrees is plenty at any of the pattern turns, unless the case specifically calls for more AND they know what they're doing. As they gain more experience they may be able to do otherwise safely.

The CFI's logic seems to be sound, as told in the initial post.

 

[Joe B]

I don't really look at bank angle in the pattern -- I'm more concerned with angle of attack than angle of bank. Sure, if you get the plane really slow, roll it into a 30-degree bank, and hold the nose up, you're risking a stall. OTOH, if you don't g-load the plane by pulling hard, and keep the nose where it needs to be to keep your speed where it belongs, there's no risk at all with 30 or even 45 degrees of bank as long as you realize what that will do to your sink rate (which may require a fistful of throttle to handle).

This, and Ben's comments, bring up the question "What is an appropriate pattern speed?" The stall speed of my Saratoga in a level 45° bank is 78 knots (no flaps). That also happens to be about 1.3 times Vso which conventional wisdom suggests is a good speed for short final but too slow for the pattern. Is there a rule of thumb for pattern speed? If not, how much margin above stall speed at some bank angle should one carry, and what bank angle would that be?

Regards,
Joe

 

[spiderweb]

For Private Pilot candidates, 20 degrees is plenty at any of the pattern turns, unless the case specifically calls for more AND they know what they're doing. As they gain more experience they may be able to do otherwise safely.

The CFI's logic seems to be sound, as told in the initial post.

I don't see anything wrong with it, but I don't see anything wrong with 30 degrees the two places I do them. I was trained from day one to do that, and it works just fine as long as AOA and airspeed are there. And please, everyone, remember AOA is everything as far as stalls go.

Now, the thing that sucked about the 15 degrees was that in a high wing, I lost the runway for a long time. I liked it for the smoothness and gentleness, but the stall thing is just not true. If I'm at 70 KIAS--with or without power--and my AOA is fine, even a 45 degree turn is fine in a fully loaded C172R.

 

[spiderweb]

This, and Ben's comments, bring up the question "What is an appropriate pattern speed?" The stall speed of my Saratoga in a level 45° bank is 78 knots (no flaps). That also happens to be about 1.3 times Vso which conventional wisdom suggests is a good speed for short final but too slow for the pattern. Is there a rule of thumb for pattern speed? If not, how much margin above stall speed at some bank angle should one carry, and what bank angle would that be?

Regards,
Joe

In the 'toga, I like to fly downwind at 105 KIAS, base with the first notch of flaps and 95 KIAS, and final with full at 90 KIAS. I don't pull power until well into the flare, and I leave some on until the wheels touch down. What do you like to fly your approaches at from the FAF? I like 105 for that, too, but I've practiced up to 140 KIAS.

 

[spiderweb]

I too would rather have my students looking outside and flying the airplane than looking at the instruments thinking about what bank angle they should be at where. Just fly the airplane.

Yeah, but for training, consistency is probably preferable. You're absolutely right--eyes need to be outside, especially in the pattern, but bank angle is important, esp from base to final when low and slow, and pilots love to kill themselves.

 

[Joe B]

In the 'toga, I like to fly downwind at 105 KIAS, base with the first notch of flaps and 95 KIAS, and final with full at 90 KIAS. I don't pull power until well into the flare, and I leave some on until the wheels touch down. What do you like to fly your approaches at from the FAF? I like 105 for that, too, but I've practiced up to 140 KIAS.

In the pattern I usually shoot for 10° flaps and 95 KIAS all the way around. Gives me half a chance when I'm following someone going 80. But I was sorta hoping there might be some science involved. Agree approaches are nice at 105 as you don't have to worry about what you do with the flaps.

Regards,
Joe

 

[poadeleted20]

I recommend 1.4-1.5 Vs (that's clean stall speed) on downwind before configuring gear/flaps, 1.3-1.4 times Vs in whatever configuration you're in on base, and 1.3 Vs0 on final (slowing that final approach speed as required for a short field landing) up to the final power cut when landing is assured and the flare is begun.

 

[Joe B]

I recommend 1.4-1.5 Vs (that's clean stall speed) on downwind before configuring gear/flaps, 1.3-1.4 times Vs in whatever configuration you're in on base, and 1.3 Vs0 on final (slowing that final approach speed as required for a short field landing) up to the final power cut when landing is assured and the flare is begun.

Interesting. That gives my 'Toga downwind speeds of 92.4-99 kts. My guess of 95 wasn't that far off. And at that speed the stalling bank angle is just past 60°. That ought to be enough margin for most of my bonehead maneuvers in the traffic pattern. Thanks.

Regards,
Joe

 

[grattonja]

In the 'toga, I like to fly downwind at 105 KIAS, base with the first notch of flaps and 95 KIAS, and final with full at 90 KIAS. I don't pull power until well into the flare, and I leave some on until the wheels touch down. What do you like to fly your approaches at from the FAF? I like 105 for that, too, but I've practiced up to 140 KIAS.

I like 85 on final with my 'toga. I find I'm less likely to float alot when I get to the runway. FAF at 105 is good. Recently I got a "pedal faster" request and shot it around 150 KIAS. That was fun. Pull the throttle all the way back, pull the nose up, dump flaps at 110 and get ready to land...

Jim G

 

[spiderweb]

I like 85 on final with my 'toga. I find I'm less likely to float alot when I get to the runway. FAF at 105 is good. Recently I got a "pedal faster" request and shot it around 150 KIAS. That was fun. Pull the throttle all the way back, pull the nose up, dump flaps at 110 and get ready to land...

Jim G

That sounds good. I think I'd have trouble with the 150 KIAS from the FAF because things would be happening to fast for me. I did the 140 a couple of times, but we were in VMC and I was under the hood. I think in IMC, by myself, I'd be willing to do 160 KIAS until a mile before the FAF, when I'd want to slow to no faster than 120 KIAS. I only have about 50 or so hours in the Saratoga, though, so I'm sure another 50 would give me more confidence.

 

[skyflyer8]

I do 30-30-30-less than 30. My 4¢

 

[spiderweb]

Thank you, everyone.

 

[Patch]

For Private Pilot candidates, 20 degrees is plenty at any of the pattern turns, unless the case specifically calls for more AND they know what they're doing. As they gain more experience they may be able to do otherwise safely.

The CFI's logic seems to be sound, as told in the initial post.

CFIs should teach Private Pilot candidates to not be afraid of >20 degrees. Thirty should be the min. Why increase your belly-up time? What's the added danger?

 

[spiderweb]

CFIs should teach Private Pilot candidates to not be afraid of >20 degrees. Thirty should be the min. Why increase your belly-up time? What's the added danger?

That's my thinking. The whole idea is knowledge, SOPs, and skill. Thirty degrees doesn't increase stall that much, but it does reduce belly up time (or sideways time).

 

[jesse]

I like my turns in the pattern to be crisp and fast. I would rather spend more time on the other parts of landing an airplane and less time on something as simple as a turn. I turn as steep as it takes to make the airplane go where I want to go. Don't force the nose where it doesn't want to be and you have no need to be scared of such.

 

[Patch]

I like my turns in the pattern to be crisp and fast. I would rather spend more time on the other parts of landing an airplane and less time on something as simple as a turn. I turn as steep as it takes to make the airplane go where I want to go. Don't force the nose where it doesn't want to be and you have no need to be scared of such.

 

[tonycondon]

holy crap jesse and patch agree on something! Im in the same boat though. we really emphasize this when training in gliders. get the stupid turn over with and focus on the approach and landing.

 

[KennyFlys]

holy crap jesse and patch agree on something!

I saw that today.