900+ hours and still learning basic stuff

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Salty, Sep 18, 2022.

  1. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nearly 1000 hours and a glider rating and I’m happy but embarrassed to have just learned a new tool.

    my glider instructor screamed at me if I went too fast in the pattern so that’s my excuse for this. Lame I know. I mean, I knew this cognitively, but didn’t use it.

    I was flying with and instructor recently and we were high on approach with flaps in and I was slowing below best glide to sink better and he asked “why don’t you push the nose down”? Well, I’ve been playing with that ever since and I’ll be darned if it doesn’t work really well as long as the circumstances warrant it. In a draggy plane it slows right back down again and you stay further from stall speed and can see better to boot.

    I love having a new tool.
     
  2. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    That isn't a new tool. It's an old tool, and it's usually the wrong tool. You gain speed by diving, speed that you then have to bleed off somehow, and most guys end up floating far down the runway, waiting for it to bleed off. Slowing below best glide works better, but yeah, watch the airspeed.

    Even better is to plan the approach properly and not find yourself high.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sure, just completely ignore
    Sorry, but I disagree with you. I can now see times when this is far better. I used it today when circumstances beyond my control put me very high very close to the numbers in a draggy 150 with 40 degree flaps. I landed on the numbers with the stall alarm chirping using this technique. No floating.

    We can't all be perfect every time like you.
     
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  4. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Is this the same instructor? Those statements from the same instructor would confuse me since putting the nose down creates more speed.

    High in the pattern in a glider? I can see the use, potentially. I've never flown one so I can't comment intelligently beyond that.
     
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Pointing the nose down and diving was the norm for me. In later years I learned to slow it up to increase descent. Better way on shorter runways. Mostly though I slip to get down if needed. I fly Cessnas
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2022
  6. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not the same instructor.
     
  7. Walboy

    Walboy Pre-takeoff checklist

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  8. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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  9. Kenny Lee

    Kenny Lee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ve got 750 hours or so. Recently filed this flight -lan. KBCT KLAL KOCF KAUO. When ATC started questioning me about landing at KLAL it caught me totally off guard. I’d never heard to not use the K if simplying over flying the field. Now I know
     
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  10. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    Can you just slip the glider

    If slippin in a 172 on final is wrong in don’t want to be right
     
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  11. Dana

    Dana En-Route

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    It depends on the plane. In a clean plane it usually doesn't do you much good, you go down more steeply but pick up speed you have to bleed off. With a draggy plane like an ultralight or a biplane or a sailplane with spoilers extended, it can be a useful technique.

    If you're already gliding slower the speed for L/Dmax ( usually approximately Vx), then diving will reduce drag and put you farther down the runway, defeating the purpose. But in a draggy airplane, or a draggy configuration, best L/D is usually pretty slow, so you're probably flying faster than best L/D, so speeding up will work.

    Wind also plays a part, the best glide speed increases with the amount of headwind, which affects whether you'll gain or lose ground by diving.
     
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  12. TCABM

    TCABM En-Route

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    Is l/d max = 1.3*Vso? In your ride? Anyways, lots of tools in the tool bag, but pushing forward in the stick does indeed result in the ground getting closer, faster.
     
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  13. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Surprised nobody has mentioned S-turns and slips as ways to get down.

    There are lots of tools, just know when to use them.
     
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  14. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    slips were mentioned, and I used an s turn in combination with speeding up on my last application.

    All good tools. The point of my post is that I found one I wasn't using and had never even considered using. In the mooney slips are generally the best tool. I doubt I'd ever use speeding up in a mooney.
     
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  15. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    You never point the nose down in a dirty Mooney because you'll blow past the flap speed. Can blow past the gear speed too. Gliders are flown differently.
     
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  16. Pinecone

    Pinecone Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yeah, and that same technique will BITE you in many other airplanes. Try that in my Mooney and you will be floating down the runway. For a LONG time.
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Either I'm not communicating well or nobody can read.
     
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  18. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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  19. TCABM

    TCABM En-Route

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    Likely a little bit of both.
     
  20. jbarrass

    jbarrass Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    I understood, thought you were clear.

    You found a new tool.

    Tools are good.

    A good craftsman knows which tool to use, and when.

    I like tools.
     
  21. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Quite true, and as @Salty keeps saying, you have to match the tool to the plane and the circumstance.

    In a high wing feeding from both tanks, there’s little risk of unporting a fuel line in an extended slip. In a low wing feeding from one side, there may be. I’ll slip my Beech but only briefly. Fortunately (?), getting down quickly in that plane isn’t really a problem. It has a safe glide; that is, it glides like a safe.
     
  22. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I understood, good tool in some planes, not too good in others. As with any new thing, if you are in a different plane and want to try something you just learned, give it a try, pay attention to what is happening, if it doesn't go as you expected, untry it. Pretty simple.
     
  23. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    It is old.

    the rest of your reply is kinda bs.

    Every scenario is different and it’s important to be able to handle them appropriately. Your admonishment of @Salty is unwarranted.
     
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  24. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It is old, hence the "still learning basic stuff" in the title. But it's a new tool for me.
     
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  25. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Oh yeah - almost forgot.

    ARRRRRRR!!!
     
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  26. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, french toast will work for breakfast...:lol:

    Yes, I understood what you are saying. I have done the push nose down procedure, even in bush planes on off airport work at SHORT landing areas. Worked well in the 206, 207, Navajo and even the 414.

    It doesn't work for every plane. And it is not a procedure that is done for several miles. Usually just a few seconds of nose down to get that landing spot back in the right place.
     
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  27. Pinecone

    Pinecone Cleared for Takeoff

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    Lots of new pilots or not yet pilots here.

    Those who have been around for a while understand that different tools in different scenarios. You have to be careful that you do not build in bias to a technique that has less than universal application.

    But few other aircraft behave like a small Cessna with 40 degrees of flaps.

    Someone mentioned S-turns, typically NOT a good idea.
     
  28. Racerx

    Racerx Pattern Altitude

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    Reading is one thing. Comprehension is another.
     
  29. Tom Wells

    Tom Wells Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Having more tools in the toolbox so you're experienced and resilient in more situations will never be a bad thing! Likewise having the "always learning" mentality is a huge asset IMHO.

    Training in super light LSAs that float forever I learned (and loved) forward slips to get down quickly. Didn't have to use them all the time and tried to set it up so I wouldn't need them, but when you need it - it's great to have!
     
  30. Justin Brady

    Justin Brady Pre-takeoff checklist

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    In a 150 with 40 degree flaps you can basically fly in vertically with the nose pointing directly at the ground and still come in below 50 knots ;D
    I agree though it works really well in a plane with big flaps and not too slippery. Add a slip in there at the same time if you want to make your passenger try to jump out.
     
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  31. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Same here. I trained in Tecnam high-wings and used slips often. Engine failure drills became much simpler once I learned how to set up a too-high final and then slip most of the way down.
     
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  32. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    This is energy management, and it is a perfectly fine tool when used appropriately. I use it in my flapless Citabria regularly.
     
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  33. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I’ll bite. Why?
     
  34. Pinecone

    Pinecone Cleared for Takeoff

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    Low, slow, turning. A tendency to use shallow bank with more rudder to turn faster, leads to stall, spin, crash, and burn.

    Lost a friend who crashed at Oshkosh trying to S-turn behind some moron who did not follow the NOTAM on speeds.
     
  35. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, you shouldn’t slip either if you’re not going to do it right. Or use flaps. Or fly at all…..
     
  36. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Final Approach

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    Sounds like your friend didn't follow the notam which explicitly states "no S-turns" and to break off the approach and start over. Not all planes are capable of 90 knots, I followed a bushcat in pedalling as fast as possible at 80 knots and I survived. Blaming others for poor airmanship is a bad look.
     
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  37. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Pattern Altitude

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    Applies to Hang Gliders as well. In a beginner glider (easy handling, draggy) stuffing the bar (same as pushing the stick) you'll drop like a rock and fit into a small field. Do that in a high performance competition wing, like the one in my avatar, and you are going to glide for 100's of yards in ground effect. Right tool for the right job and used the right way. I can read and comprehend :)
     
  38. WDD

    WDD En-Route

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    There is a VOR nearby named RMG. There is also an airport 20 miles away KRMG. Now how would ATC want me to file that?
     
  39. Gary Ward

    Gary Ward Cleared for Takeoff

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    Can you slip a glider?
     
  40. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    That's not quite right. In the US at least, K normally indicates an airport identifier. Taking KLAL for example, KLAL is the airport, LAL is the VOR. Now if LAL's case, the VOR is located on the airport, but that is not always the case. The VOR could be located miles away, and giving LAL for the waypoint, if located miles away, could be confusing.

    This may have been bad information coming from a controller that doesn't know better.
     
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