709 "ride" prep

LDJones

LDJones

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
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Display name:
Jonesy
A former student screwed up on a long cross-country while dealing with some bad weather and ended up busting some restricted airspace down south. The Army was not amused, nor was the FAA. He got the dreaded 709 letter on the Friday before Memorial Day weekend with instructions to have his ride scheduled by Monday or face further consequences.

He tried multiple times to reach someone on deadline day, but kept getting voice mail. Finally, late in the day he got a call back.

Turns out the "Ride" would just be an oral on Preflight Planning, Weather, Airspace and ADM. He sent me copy of the letter with the details so I took the list of topics and designed a study guide for him using FAA resources on each of those areas. It ended up being a three-ring binder with about 95 pages of materials covering all the topics they wanted to review, plus an appendix with a number of links to some good on-line videos about understanding weather, airspace and flight planning that I thought he might find useful. I threw a pretty cover on it, then setup a time for use to meet and review.

We spent two hours last Friday going through the guide where I pointed out some key things and highlighted areas he should study over the weekend before his meeting with the FSDO the following Monday. I suggested he thoroughly highlight key items and make some notes in the margins to help him study. I also told him to take the study guide to the meeting for reference, and that a contrite approach with a positive attitude towards improving his airmanship would go a long way.

After the meeting he reported back that they were impressed with his preparation and could see he had the right attitude about it. He said it was actually relatively enjoyable....and a huge relief once completed.

We are hoping that's the end of it. There's still a potential civil penalty, but it sounded like that might be waived based on the results of the FSDO meeting. We are crossing our fingers.

Takeaways....

1) Try to not screw up...it's a pain
2) If you do screw up, take it seriously and prepare accordingly
3) It doesn't necessarily have to be a bad experience, especially if you learn from it.
 
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I'm impressed with your level of service for a "former" student.
 
Thanks for sharing. There tends to be a lot of mis-information out there about the enforcement process. Was there any certificate action (i.e. suspension) or was it just a 709?
 
Very good of you to work with him in the manner you did.
I went over a hold short line once; driving rain storm with lightening and couldn't see it when tower asked if I was over it. I said I couldn't tell and did an immediate 180. Tower instructed a jet to go around until they could be sure I was clear. All after a long flight, ILS approach to near minimums as a storm rolled into the airport.
FSDO handled it very professionally. First thing they asked was about recent training. I had to take an on like course and send a completion cert. re runway and taxiway markings. I did file the NASA report. FSDO rep said they had had a lot of problems there and made some recommendations for improved markings. I think all benefited. Only over reaction IMO was tower who got quite upset and reported it as a much more severe violation that what the FSDO evaluated at. 250 feet from the runway.

Best,

Dave
 
LDJones said:
A former student screwed up on a long cross-country while dealing with some bad weather and ended up busting some restricted airspace down south. The Army was not amused, nor was the FAA.
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Number one should've been flight following. I was FF from El Paso to California last July 4th with rain everywhere (no TS - early morning). In short, north of Tuscon I landed as controller was working me only and was worried about weather 45 minutes ahead that was changing fast and unforecast. Landed checked, re-launched, received same controller. Activity changed again airborne and I was now blocked westbound. I queried if anything he was painting looked better across AZ ... he suggested direct Yuma, across ALL the restricted areas and made it happen. Controller said he had no problem getting clearance across the restricted areas as the weather was bad and there'd be no low level jet activity (which sounds like your students situation). Controllers will really help you if you let them.

Edit: Right after I was cleared, 8 more aircraft joined the same conga line across the restricted areas ... two of them dropping off of IFR clearances as the said they were getting TB. We were all about 5-10 miles in trail of one another with me up front.
 
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Dave Siciliano said:
Very good of you to work with him in the manner you did.
I went over a hold short line once; driving rain storm with lightening and couldn't see it when tower asked if I was over it. I said I couldn't tell and did an immediate 180. Tower instructed a jet to go around until they could be sure I was clear. All after a long flight, ILS approach to near minimums as a storm rolled into the airport.
FSDO handled it very professionally. First thing they asked was about recent training. I had to take an on like course and send a completion cert. re runway and taxiway markings. I did file the NASA report. FSDO rep said they had had a lot of problems there and made some recommendations for improved markings. I think all benefited. Only over reaction IMO was tower who got quite upset and reported it as a much more severe violation that what the FSDO evaluated at. 250 feet from the runway.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

New Orleans Lakefront?
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm impressed with your level of service for a "former" student.
Click to expand...

I guess I should add that we have done some work towards his instrument rating, which he's getting really serious about now.

But I'd do it for any student I've worked with...or anyone else who asked for the help.
 
Brad Z said:
Thanks for sharing. There tends to be a lot of mis-information out there about the enforcement process. Was there any certificate action (i.e. suspension) or was it just a 709?
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Nothing so far....hoping there won't be.
 
Sounds like it worked out well and was a good learning experience. It seems most people I've talked to who've had 709 rides have had similar reports. We do all make mistakes.

On a side note, this is part of why I almost always file IFR or at least have flight following. One of the benefits is that they help keep you aware. Last weekend coming back from Long Island (after Wings) we departed VFR, got flight following immediately with Bravo clearance from NY approach, and then asked for a pop-up IFR over Allentown. They kept us clear of the restricted area near Harrisburg. Granted, I would have avoided that area anyway if VFR, but the point is it's an extra set of eyes to help.
 
LDJones said:
A former student screwed up on a long cross-country while dealing with some bad weather and ended up busting some restricted airspace down south. The Army was not amused, nor was the FAA. He got the dreaded 709 letter on the Friday before Memorial Day weekend with instructions to have his ride scheduled by Monday or face further consequences.

He tried multiple times to reach someone on deadline day, but kept getting voice mail. Finally, late in the day he got a call back.

Turns out the "Ride" would just be an oral on Preflight Planning, Weather, Airspace and ADM. He sent me copy of the letter with the details so I took the list of topics and designed a study guide for him using FAA resources on each of those areas. It ended up being a three-ring binder with about 95 pages of materials covering all the topics they wanted to review, plus an appendix with a number of links to some good on-line videos about understanding weather, airspace and flight planning that I thought he might find useful. I threw a pretty cover on it, then setup a time for use to meet and review.

We spent two hours last Friday going through the guide where I pointed out some key things and highlighted areas he should study over the weekend before his meeting with the FSDO the following Monday. I suggested he thoroughly highlight key items and make some notes in the margins to help him study. I also told him to take the study guide to the meeting for reference, and that a contrite approach with a positive attitude towards improving his airmanship would go a long way.

After the meeting he reported back that they were impressed with his preparation and could see he had the right attitude about it. He said it was actually relatively enjoyable....and a huge relief once completed.

We are hoping that's the end of it. There's still a potential civil penalty, but it sounded like that might be waived based on the results of the FSDO meeting. We are crossing our fingers.

Takeaways....

1) Try to not screw up...it's a pain
2) If you do screw up, take it seriously and prepare accordingly
3) It doesn't necessarily have to be a bad experience, especially if you learn from it.
Click to expand...

Sounds lucky, friend of mine got 90 days. His pre-flight consisted of asking his buddy if the R was "Hot". Apparently the FAA doesn't like that explanation.
 
Be careful of relying on a controller to keep you out of restricted/prohibited area with flight following. I've seen several cases where a pilot was relying on FF and busted airspace like that. I've reminded controllers a couple times of restricted space in front of me when IFR and had them say: oh! Thanks turn xxx to remain clear. I think IFR being vectored you might have some valid argument you were sent there, but why wind up in a mess in you needed.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Be careful of relying on a controller to keep you out of restricted/prohibited area with flight following. I've seen several cases where a pilot was relying on FF and busted airspace like that. I've reminded controllers a couple times of restricted space in front of me when IFR and had them say: oh! Thanks turn xxx to remain clear. I think IFR being vectored you might have some valid argument you were sent there, but why wind up in a mess in you needed.

Best,

Dave
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Absolutely. You shouldn't rely on them for avoidance, but it's another set of eyes in case you missed something.
 
Isn't the controller responsible for clearing you through airspace in their sector? Didn't we discuss this already?!?!?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Be careful of relying on a controller to keep you out of restricted/prohibited area with flight following. I've seen several cases where a pilot was relying on FF and busted airspace like that. I've reminded controllers a couple times of restricted space in front of me when IFR and had them say: oh! Thanks turn xxx to remain clear. I think IFR being vectored you might have some valid argument you were sent there, but why wind up in a mess in you needed.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Very true. Once while approaching a non-military restricted area in Socal on FF I asked the controller, hoping to get such a clearance, "Am I cleared through RXX?" to which the answer was a typical Socal valley speak "Noooooooooo."

I probably worded my request poorly, but I suspect the answer would have been the same anyway. (It wasn't enough of a dogleg to avoid it to be worth trying to prearrange clearance through it through the controlling agency.) I was just kind of hoping ATC could have magically worked it out.
 
I am going to assume this was VFR without Flight Following -

The easiest solution here would have been for him to say in his first meeting with the FSDO examiners or whomever - he exercised his emergency authority to remain VFR and given the unexpected, unforecast intensity of the weather, he had only one direction to go to remain safe and due to the paucity of airports in that area open to the public, he landed at the first suitable airport . . . .

End of problem legally anyway . . . they can 709 ride him at any time, but then there remains the ADM issue about why he launched and perhaps some remedial weather knowledge is in order. . .
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Very good of you to work with him in the manner you did.
I went over a hold short line once; driving rain storm with lightening and couldn't see it when tower asked if I was over it. I said I couldn't tell and did an immediate 180. Tower instructed a jet to go around until they could be sure I was clear. All after a long flight, ILS approach to near minimums as a storm rolled into the airport.
FSDO handled it very professionally. First thing they asked was about recent training. I had to take an on like course and send a completion cert. re runway and taxiway markings. I did file the NASA report. FSDO rep said they had had a lot of problems there and made some recommendations for improved markings. I think all benefited. Only over reaction IMO was tower who got quite upset and reported it as a much more severe violation that what the FSDO evaluated at. 250 feet from the runway.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Nothing here against Dave at all - but this is where the i-units come in very handy or the SafeTaxi equipped Garmin units - seeing where you are is very very helpful . . .
 
Whether they are or not, I don't want to find out by being given a phone number to call. I've found that most of the time they just need a "nudge" to realize they've screwed the pooch (or are about to) and the proper measures follow quickly. Our controllers are typically much more competent than those abroad, but everyone has a bad day. No reason to let their bad one lead to a bad one for you as well.

Jaybird180 said:
Isn't the controller responsible for clearing you through airspace in their sector? Didn't we discuss this already?!?!?
Click to expand...
 
comanchepilot said:
Nothing here against Dave at all - but this is where the i-units come in very handy or the SafeTaxi equipped Garmin units - seeing where you are is very very helpful . . .
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He was actually traveling with the iPad....but due to a setup error he didn't see the airspace. The transparency level on the cloud overlay was set too high (or low, depending on how you describe transparency!) which obscured the underlying restricted airspace enough for him to miss it. We reviewed iPad usage and setup during our session, as well.
 
wsuffa said:
Lakefront was (and may still be) bad - KOWD can also be confusing to some. Seems to me that Hooks (DWH) had issues, too.
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Hooks has issues because the airport is so deteriorated. Lighting and signage could use a lot of help. I would be happy if they would just fix the potholes properly.
 
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