5 dead in an RV-10?

mryan75 said:
I doubt it. I think flying drunk at night without a pilot certificate is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. That's my opinion.
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And my opinion is that pilots often get away with risky or unapproved behavior many times before they crash. Some never crash and die of other causes
 
IIRC, the initial report indicated 0% BAC and THC in several places. So he probably wasn't drunk but possibly high.
 
Everskyward said:
And my opinion is that pilots often get away with risky or unapproved behavior many times before they crash. Some never crash and die of other causes
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Oh I'm not arguing at all that he didn't do anything risky and/or dumb before this. But I still think drunk at night is a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
 
mryan75 said:
Oh I'm not arguing at all that he didn't do anything risky and/or dumb before this. But I still think drunk at night is a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
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That's your opinion. But I know for a fact that drunk at night is not a once-in-a-lifetime thing; also flying while high. No, I didn't report either of these people. Both instances happened a long time ago and AFAIK, these folks are still alive.
 
mryan75 said:
Oh I'm not arguing at all that he didn't do anything risky and/or dumb before this. But I still think drunk at night is a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
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Hardly. I've known pilots for whom it was pretty much a regular thing.

One was a CFI who staggered unnoticed to his airplane and flew home after he'd passed out drunk in the hangar at a Christmas party. A few of us had dragged him to a sofa in the FBO so he could sleep it off, but he woke up and flew home an hour or so later.

Rich
 
Everskyward said:
That's your opinion. But I know for a fact that drunk at night is not a once-in-a-lifetime thing; also flying while high. No, I didn't report either of these people. Both instances happened a long time ago and AFAIK, these folks are still alive.
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RJM62 said:
Hardly. I've known pilots for whom it was pretty much a regular thing.

One was a CFI who staggered unnoticed to his airplane and flew home after he'd passed out drunk in the hangar at a Christmas party. A few of us had dragged him to a sofa in the FBO so he could sleep it off, but he woke up and flew home an hour or so later.

Rich
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The one response I have to both of these is, we were dealing with actual pilots in these cases, one a CFI. This guy wasn't even a pilot.
 
mryan75 said:
The one response I have to both of these is, we were dealing with actual pilots in these cases, one a CFI. This guy wasn't even a pilot.
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Not having a certificate /= never flown an airplane before. You can learn to fly and never take the test. Who knows what happened here, but I will say that plenty of pilots go through their life doing stupid things and never kill themselves doing it. Either that, or it takes a long time.
 
Can somebody fly an airplane at night, out of CG, and over gross? What if they don't have a certificate?

As has been alluded to, the guy could have been fully trained and experienced, but just never took the ride. That said, this sets up the problem... The pilot has poor judgement.

Night, out of W&B ? Yes. Hate to say it, but this happens often.

Can he fly under these conditions after drinking? I would dare to say it depends on just how much he drank. If he had two beers, my guess is yes. If he was completely plowed, my guess is no. You can put a sliding scale between those two parameters.
 
flyingron said:
Maybe student pilots should be required to have the following tattooed on their forehead:

PASSENGER WARNING

This pilot is a student pilot and does not comply with the FAA safety regulations for pilots.
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Then we can just put a red X through it after they pass the check ride and then tattoo "NEVERMIND, they are now safe but check the website for a current medical and then check to see if they filed a flight plan".:yikes:
 
mryan75 said:
I say "untrained" to the extent he didn't have a certificate. That we know. My guess is he had someone teach him to land and he "figured the rest out himself". Probably a lot of autopilot. And I'd also be willing to bet the person who taught him whatever he was taught was not a CFI. Hell, they may have been an "unlicensed operator" too. Whatever it was, this whole operation was not on the up and up.
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He built a plane. He had at least some understanding of how they fly. He had a medical, so at some point he was at least a student pilot. Why wouldn't he have gotten instruction from a CFI? I don't see how any of your assumptions follow from the facts.
 
I am starting to think they took off and started arguing about entering the pattern on the 45 and it spiraled out of control from there.

Sorry, that other thread has gone wheels off.
Beginning to think 2 or more pilots in a plane is a recipe for disaster.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am starting to think they took off and started arguing about entering the pattern on the 45 and it spiraled out of control from there.

Sorry, that other thread has gone wheels off.
Beginning to think 2 or more pilots in a plane is a recipe for disaster.
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Well, the majority of planes have dual controls.

Only the Bonanza and Cessna 190/195 did it right with the throwover. No right-seater is going to take control of those planes.

In Europe, and some other countries, any vehicle being operated by a student driver has a large yellow square with "L" on the back. Maybe something similar could be adapted to GA. Of course, there's nothing to stop the "L" person from tearing it off a plane at 02:30 in the morning as they load up on kids and take off into the darkness.
 
docmirror said:
Well, the majority of planes have dual controls.

Only the Bonanza and Cessna 190/195 did it right with the throwover. No right-seater is going to take control of those planes.

In Europe, and some other countries, any vehicle being operated by a student driver has a large yellow square with "L" on the back. Maybe something similar could be adapted to GA. Of course, there's nothing to stop the "L" person from tearing it off a plane at 02:30 in the morning as they load up on kids and take off into the darkness.
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Yikes... What do you think about larger airplanes where the yokes can disconnect? Right yoke controls spoilers and right elevator. Left controls ailerons and left elevator. Tide together both control all. Can tie either into both elevators or both ailerons and spoilers, thus isolating a jammed control.
 
docmirror said:
Well, the majority of planes have dual controls.



Only the Bonanza and Cessna 190/195 did it right with the throwover. No right-seater is going to take control of those planes.



In Europe, and some other countries, any vehicle being operated by a student driver has a large yellow square with "L" on the back. Maybe something similar could be adapted to GA. Of course, there's nothing to stop the "L" person from tearing it off a plane at 02:30 in the morning as they load up on kids and take off into the darkness.
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Does that mean all the fly by wire airplanes get an "L" for letting the computer flying while the joysticks are pushed opposite directions? ;)
 
Kritchlow said:
Yikes... What do you think about larger airplanes where the yokes can disconnect?
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Yikes. I don't think about it at all.

My post, lest you thought I was serious was decidedly tongue firmly in cheek.

Dry humor, or wit doesn't translate well to the masses. My bad.:drink:
 
Kritchlow said:
Can somebody fly an airplane at night, out of CG, and over gross? What if they don't have a certificate?

As has been alluded to, the guy could have been fully trained and experienced, but just never took the ride. That said, this sets up the problem... The pilot has poor judgement.

Night, out of W&B ? Yes. Hate to say it, but this happens often.

Can he fly under these conditions after drinking? I would dare to say it depends on just how much he drank. If he had two beers, my guess is yes. If he was completely plowed, my guess is no. You can put a sliding scale between those two parameters.
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It's also possible that he recently took the ride, but the database hasn't updated.

Rich
 
The NTSB preliminary makes references from which conclusions about the pilot's experience can be inferred. So far no one that has posted in this thread has noted this as far as I can tell.

According to FAA records, the pilot was issued a repairman experimental aircraft builder certificate on December 19, 2010 for the accident airplane. He was issued a third-class medical certificate on January 19, 2011, and he reported 25 total hours of flight experience on that date.

According to the FAA, a student pilot certificate was not issued concurrent with the medical due to an administrative oversight, but a student pilot certificate issued on that date would have been expired at the time of the accident. The pilot/owner/builder did not hold a pilot certificate and no pilot logbook was recovered; therefore, the pilot's total flight experience could not be determined.

The four-seat, single-engine, low-wing, fixed-gear, 4-place airplane was manufactured from a kit in 2010 by the pilot/owner, and equipped with a Lycoming 260-horsepower reciprocating engine. According to the airplane's maintenance records, the most recent condition inspection was completed on March 10, 2015, at 338 total aircraft hours.
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If the decedent flew the largest portion of those 338 hours, he had a reasonable amount of experience. This says nothing about his decision making skills. It may be noteworthy that the condition inspection was done. It questions the notion he was an unskilled and uncaring nitwit.

Carry on.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...d922-424b-b91c-5e1e074cea36&pgno=1&pgsize=100
 
3393RP said:
The NTSB preliminary makes references from which conclusions about the pilot's experience can be inferred. So far no one that has posted in this thread has noted this as far as I can tell.



If the decedent flew the largest portion of those 338 hours, he had a reasonable amount of experience. This says nothing about his decision making skills. It may be noteworthy that the condition inspection was done. It questions the notion he was an unskilled and uncaring nitwit.

Carry on.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...d922-424b-b91c-5e1e074cea36&pgno=1&pgsize=100
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But, just because he had a few hundred hours doesn't mean he was skilled. This is even more likely seeing as though he never completed training.

I've seen guys doing it wrong for 10,000 hours.
 
Nah. Perhaps my wording was unclear.

Heck, I know 300+ hours in four years is nothing. I've flown with guys that have a couple hundred hours and been impressed by their smoothness and ability to easily operate in the airspace according to the rules.

I've also flown with a couple of pilots that had over 1,000 hours and eagerly anticipated the end of the flight.

I don't think anything meaningful will be found by the NTSB. The guy did something that was stupid and had a very low percentage of a good outcome.

When a ball of aluminum is the result of flying at 2 AM with obvious violations of some basic rules and regs, there isn't much that can be discerned from the aftermath.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am starting to think they took off and started arguing about entering the pattern on the 45 and it spiraled out of control from there.

Sorry, that other thread has gone wheels off.
Beginning to think 2 or more pilots in a plane is a recipe for disaster.
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Like cooks in the kitchen, two trouble makes. Same goes for Internet forums.
 
Let's talk about this administrative oversight. Could he have simple filled out an 8710 and gotten a student certificate? And how did he have 25 loggable hours at the time of his medical.

Someone at the FAA should have caught on to that during the medical application, no?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Let's talk about this administrative oversight. Could he have simple filled out an 8710 and gotten a student certificate? And how did he have 25 loggable hours at the time of his medical.

Someone at the FAA should have caught on to that during the medical application, no?
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You don't need a medical nor a Student Pilot Certificate to log dual; and the application asks only for "Total Pilot Time," not PIC time.

Rich
 
Jaybird180 said:
Let's talk about this administrative oversight. Could he have simple filled out an 8710 and gotten a student certificate? And how did he have 25 loggable hours at the time of his medical.

Someone at the FAA should have caught on to that during the medical application, no?
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I don't believe you need a student cert or a medical to log dual with a CFI
 
He had a medical. I believe the NTSB (or at least whoever at the FAA told him) that if he had bothered with a student pilot certificate it would be expired. He's under 40 and they made the student pilot certificate duration follow the same rules as the medical (for a while it was stuck at 24 months).
 
Jaybird180 said:
Let's talk about this administrative oversight. Could he have simple filled out an 8710 and gotten a student certificate? And how did he have 25 loggable hours at the time of his medical.

Someone at the FAA should have caught on to that during the medical application, no?
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You're the second person I've seen today who doesn't seem to know that one needn't have a student pilot certificate (or any certificate) to log time.

Did you have a certificate when you started your training?
 
JoeSelch said:
You're the second person I've seen today who doesn't seem to know that one needn't have a student pilot certificate (or any certificate) to log time.

Did you have a certificate when you started your training?
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Yes, I was required in my 141 program. I wrongly attributed the same to part 61 as well.
 
flyingron said:
He had a medical. I believe the NTSB (or at least whoever at the FAA told him) that if he had bothered with a student pilot certificate it would be expired. He's under 40 and they made the student pilot certificate duration follow the same rules as the medical (for a while it was stuck at 24 months).
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Been 5 yrs for awhile now buddy
 
DJTorrente said:
No, but I wonder if the CYA and "Go Pound Sand" attitude was adopted by government employees or LockMart.
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It is a contract tower (SERCO).. The tower chief is/was a good guy, He got tired of the legal BS from the Mooney crash here and said. *uck it...

The widows of the Mooney pilot sued and settled out of court for 12 mil.. The ex wife got 6 and the current wife got 6..... SERCO ponied up 6 and the FAA ( SLC center) paid the other 6...

I am not sure if SERCO directed the tower to NEVER release the tapes or what...:confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
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