400 hours.. But no PPL

[Tom-D]

I will say it again. NO fraking way. Lots of guys race motorcycles, perform in air shows, do all sorts of things. Just because some of them avoid turning into wannabe zombies doesn't make it safe. No Alaska, not in my airplane, not for this VFR pilot. Too damn many ways to buy it hard. Too few skills and ponies to have enough outs. No way.

This boy has a lot of respect for the guys who fly in what they fly in in Alaska. Enough that you wouldn't see him flying in it. Plenty of lower 48 to fly in. Gets plenty cold where I live too.

They fly VFR under the same rules as you do.

They fly IFR under the same rules as you do.

those that don't, get dead.

Rocks and bad weather down here will kill you just as dead.

 

[BillTIZ]

SNIP..... I am never taking my aircraft to Alaska, no way. I'm just not that good a stick, and don't really have enough airplane.

so what is your airplane, that "you don't have enough airplane"?
If you feel you are "not a good stick", there are plenty of places in the lower 48 to get you in trouble.

Get the practice, take an experienced pilot with you.

I just completed a 5300+ NM trip from southern Nevada to Anchorage, Homer, Talkeetna, Fairbanks and back home. I took a simple airplane, a T-41B (C172 w/210HP). I was not flying off sandbars, all runways were long and paved.

It was all 3-3.5 hr short cross countries, two to three legs per day. Day light flying.

There is a young lady that posts here, lives in Anchorage, that just came south and back to Alaska in a C-150 (150HP).

It can be done, and it can be done safely. August is a perfect time for a trip through Alaska.

 

[Palmpilot]

I think you're right that it can be done safely, but if he doesn't want to fly in Alaska, why try to talk him into it?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Guys,

Is that true that in Alaska the CTOWs (take off weight) are 25 % higher than US48? Sorry for the derailment but does anybody knows the science of it?

Not necessarily, but I think a lot of their 135 operators get such certifications. For the science of it, let's take a look at the following from the C172 type certificate data sheet:

Special Ferry Flight Authorization. Flight Standards District Offices are authorized to issue Special overweight ferry flight authorizations. These airplanes are structurally satisfactory for ferry flight if maintained within the following limits: (1) Takeoff weight must not exceed 130% of the maximum weight for Normal Category; and (2) The Never Exceed Airspeed (VNE) and Maximum Structural Cruising Speed (VC) must be reduced by 30%; and (3) Forward and aft center of gravity limits may not be exceeded; and (4) Structural load factors of +2.5 g. to -1.0 g. may not be exceeded. Requirements for any additional oil should established in accordance with Advisory Circular AC23.1011-1. Increased stall speeds and reduced climb performance should be expected for the increased weights. Flight characteristics and performance at the increased weights have not been evaluated. Flight Permit for operations of overweight aircraft may be found in Advisory Circular AC21-4B.

So, as you can see, a 172 will fly at 30% over max gross, with limitations as follows:

* As noted above, Vne and Vno drop by 30%.

* Vs0 and Vs1 will increase by 14%. That's the square root of 1.3 minus 1 - Most V-speeds besides Vne/Vno will change by the square root of the ratio of the actual weight over the gross weight, and that goes for any operation - That's why if you're flying very light you'll want to use slower approach speeds to get the best landing performance, for example.

* Climb rate will be next to nothing. Climb rate is based on excess horsepower. I don't have the formula handy, but you can determine what the excess horsepower is by measuring the percent power you're using to maintain level flight at Vy, or the climb rate at maximum power. I would guess that a 172 at 30% over gross probably would max out at under 200 fpm climb.

* Cruise speed will be slower due to higher induced drag with the extra weight, increasing fuel burn per mile quite a bit.

Does this mean it's OK for you to fly over gross? NO! Ferry pilots and those pilots authorized to fly in such operations in Alaska are obviously trained on all the limitations that go along with heavy operations. Every aircraft type has different factors that lead to their certified maximum gross weight. Obviously the C172's limitation is not a structural one given what they allow above. However, at heavy weights go-arounds may not be possible past a certain point in the approach, and who knows what other limitations there will be on the plane's performance, as this post most certainly does not provide a comprehensive list. The maximum gross weight of an airplane will always be the highest it can be given FAA certification limits for structural integrity, certain required operations (such as go-arounds with flaps), and other factors. If you want to stay safe, obey the numbers.

However, I do applaud curiosity into the science behind things, so long as it doesn't tempt you to head for the edges of the envelope. Great question!

 

[Cmercado]

Not necessarily, but I think a lot of their 135 operators get such certifications. For the science of it, let's take a look at the following from the C172 type certificate data sheet:



So, as you can see, a 172 will fly at 30% over max gross, with limitations as follows:

* As noted above, Vne and Vno drop by 30%.

* Vs0 and Vs1 will increase by 14%. That's the square root of 1.3 minus 1 - Most V-speeds besides Vne/Vno will change by the square root of the ratio of the actual weight over the gross weight, and that goes for any operation - That's why if you're flying very light you'll want to use slower approach speeds to get the best landing performance, for example.

* Climb rate will be next to nothing. Climb rate is based on excess horsepower. I don't have the formula handy, but you can determine what the excess horsepower is by measuring the percent power you're using to maintain level flight at Vy, or the climb rate at maximum power. I would guess that a 172 at 30% over gross probably would max out at under 200 fpm climb.

* Cruise speed will be slower due to higher induced drag with the extra weight, increasing fuel burn per mile quite a bit.

Does this mean it's OK for you to fly over gross? NO! Ferry pilots and those pilots authorized to fly in such operations in Alaska are obviously trained on all the limitations that go along with heavy operations. Every aircraft type has different factors that lead to their certified maximum gross weight. Obviously the C172's limitation is not a structural one given what they allow above. However, at heavy weights go-arounds may not be possible past a certain point in the approach, and who knows what other limitations there will be on the plane's performance, as this post most certainly does not provide a comprehensive list. The maximum gross weight of an airplane will always be the highest it can be given FAA certification limits for structural integrity, certain required operations (such as go-arounds with flaps), and other factors. If you want to stay safe, obey the numbers.

However, I do applaud curiosity into the science behind things, so long as it doesn't tempt you to head for the edges of the envelope. Great question!

Kent,
Thanks a lot for your very informed answer! I asked the question because in some place I read that gross weight increases were allowed in some Alaskan operations.... I just wanted to know if they were specific SOPs or wife tales stories about the planet named Alaska.

BTW, I have a C172M. Very helpful information on performance numbers above gross.

 

[Cmercado]

Kent,
Thanks a lot for your very informed answer! I asked the question because in some place I read that gross weight increases were allowed in some Alaskan operations.... I just wanted to know if they were specific SOPs or wife tales stories about the planet named Alaska.

BTW, I have a C172M. Very helpful information on performance numbers above gross.

Dont worry!! I will not fly over gross.....LOL. 100 Degrees on the runway almost year round is not an option in the Caribbean..

 

[rottydaddy]

Flying IFR with no IFR rating...you're an accident waiting to happen. Your excuses are a pathetic attempt to justify breaking the law/regs. You are a hazard to the rest of us...either get the ratings or stop it.

Shoot, in Alaska everybody flies in IMC all the time, regardless of ratings or equipment...right?

:wink2:

Ive been poking fun all along here, but im still dying to know why the OP wants to go legit after all this time, when its apparently not necessary in Alaska, by his own assertion. I mean no real insult to Alaskan pilots, legal or otherwise... youre either safe or not, rules and documents aside.

 

[Henning]

Shoot, in Alaska everybody flies in IMC all the time, regardless of ratings or equipment...right?

:wink2:

Ive been poking fun all along here, but im still dying to know why the OP wants to go legit after all this time, when its apparently not necessary in Alaska, by his own assertion. I mean no real insult to Alaskan pilots, legal or otherwise... youre either safe or not, rules and documents aside.

The most likely reason is he wants to buy an aircraft that is expensive enough that he desires to insure it. Insurance is the only reason an American who isn't looking for a flying job needs a pilots cert and medical. No insurance and no paying pax? Nobody gives a rat's ass.

 

[Cmercado]

The most likely reason is he wants to buy an aircraft that is expensive enough that he desires to insure it. Insurance is the only reason an American who isn't looking for a flying job needs a pilots cert and medical. No insurance and no paying pax? Nobody gives a rat's ass.

My guess is that he wants to obtain his commercial ticket so he can charge passengers and fly to real airports.. not just private airstrips... That is why the 400 hours are important..

 

[Henning]

My guess is that he wants to obtain his commercial ticket so he can charge passengers and fly to real airports.. not just private airstrips... That is why the 400 hours are important..

Could be, but insurance also gets cheaper with hours logged. 400hrs doesn't put a dent in the requirements faced for doing a commercial op. no license is needed just because you use airports. I'd be willing to bet up to 3% of all the aircraft on airports and flying around are owned and operated by people without a ticket or a medical and haven't seen an annual inspection since they entered that persons service.

 

[Cmercado]

Could be, but insurance also gets cheaper with hours logged. 400hrs doesn't put a dent in the requirements faced for doing a commercial op. no license is needed just because you use airports. I'd be willing to bet up to 3% of all the aircraft on airports and flying around are owned and operated by people without a ticket or a medical and haven't seen an annual inspection since they entered that persons service.

Or he wants to finance the plane. Down here if the bank is financing the plane you need to have full insurance and obviously you need a license if you want to do that.
The issue in Puerto Rico is that the insurance is ridiculously expensive so most of the GA fleet is uninsured (For a 1974 C172M 40,000 insured value we are talking about 6K a year and is not an open pilot policy!!!!)

Guys, how much do you pay for a 172 40K value?

 

[Henning]

Or he wants to finance the plane. Down here if the bank is financing the plane you need to have full insurance. The issue in Puerto Rico is that the insurance is ridiculously expensive so most of the GA fleet is uninsured (For a 1974 C172M 40,000 insured value we are talking about 6K a year and is not an open pilot policy!!!!)

Exactly, it's about the insurance requirement.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

Guys,

Is that true that in Alaska the CTOWs (take off weight) are 25 % higher than US48? Sorry for the derailment but does anybody knows the science of it?

Perhaps you're thinking of far 91.323 ?
It provides up to a 15% increase, but only in specific cases which do not include private GA flights.

 

[Henning]

10% over gross for ferry flights is pretty much a rubber stamp with the FAA regardless where you launch from. More than that and 'They'll get back to you' on it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Perhaps you're thinking of far 91.323 ?
It provides up to a 15% increase, but only in specific cases which do not include private GA flights.

Aha, interesting!

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the Federal Aviation Regulations, the Administrator will approve, as provided in this section, an increase in the maximum certificated weight of an airplane type certificated under Aeronautics Bulletin No. 7–A of the U.S. Department of Commerce dated January 1, 1931, as amended, or under the normal category of part 4a of the former Civil Air Regulations (14 CFR part 4a, 1964 ed.) if that airplane is operated in the State of Alaska by—

(1) A certificate holder conducting operations under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter; or

(2) The U.S. Department of Interior in conducting its game and fish law enforcement activities or its management, fire detection, and fire suppression activities concerning public lands.

(b) The maximum certificated weight approved under this section may not exceed—

(1) 12,500 pounds;

(2) 115 percent of the maximum weight listed in the FAA aircraft specifications;

(3) The weight at which the airplane meets the positive maneuvering load factor requirement for the normal category specified in §23.337 of this chapter; or

(4) The weight at which the airplane meets the climb performance requirements under which it was type certificated.

(c) In determining the maximum certificated weight, the Administrator considers the structural soundness of the airplane and the terrain to be traversed.

(d) The maximum certificated weight determined under this section is added to the airplane's operation limitations and is identified as the maximum weight authorized for operations within the State of Alaska.

Especially interesting: The "will approve" in section (a) (as opposed to "may approve"). Also, certification requirements for structural soundness, climb performance, and load factor are not waived... So what *is* waived, then?

 

[Cmercado]

Aha, interesting!



Especially interesting: The "will approve" in section (a) (as opposed to "may approve"). Also, certification requirements for structural soundness, climb performance, and load factor are not waived... So what *is* waived, then?

A planet named Alaska....

 

[GCA319]

Go to one of those 2 week finish up programs and get it done....You might want to tear out most of your logbook pages though..

 

[Dav8or]

Ive been poking fun all along here, but im still dying to know why the OP wants to go legit after all this time, when its apparently not necessary in Alaska, by his own assertion. I mean no real insult to Alaskan pilots, legal or otherwise... youre either safe or not, rules and documents aside.

Or... it could be that 139 posts is what it takes to make a troll full.

 

[Palmpilot]

Personally, I think accusing people of being trolls is kind of rude.

 

[N312RB]

This is like killing someone, going into the police station to say you did it and expecting to walk out with a golden ribbon... Nothing in this situation will turn out well if you don't keep it zipped... that includes posting on the WORLD wide web

 

[Fearless Tower]

 

[Eagle I]

 

[SbestCFII]

Outside of your dual and legal solo pilot time, you have zip. WTH were you thinking, an unqualifed and unlicensed pilot putting other peoples lives in danger?

 

[TriGear28]

Guys, come on, face it.. See the statitstics.... Alaska is another planet... The Caribbean is another planet..... There is life outside of Cont 48 US. I am not saying that the OP is a hero... He is doing wrong.... But even the FAA understand their different enviroments.... Dont be so ostrich.... There is another parallel word outside NTSB and FAA..

This is Pilots of America... not Pilots of the Caribbean. Any one of us could have amassed thousands of hours of turbine time flying questionable cargo without a ticket or medical for some guy named Pablo south of the border but that does not change the fact that it is quite Illegal in either place. I hope the guy doesn't get into trouble for the past indiscretions but most importantly I hope he does not get involved in an accident. Accidents are what the FAA respond to and is why we have draconian regulations. As a result, a person flying without being certified who gets involved in an accident hurts all of us. The government will look for some method to keep it from happening again which will invariably involve a rule that will further restrict the rest of our rights and make flying more expensive than it already is. That is the only issue I take with it.

It's not really about his competence in the air, but about how it could impact the pilot community as a whole. As mentioned many times earlier, perhaps the FAA turns a blind eye to much of these things. So long as they exclude accidents stemming from these operations from statistics that reflect the operational habits of the rest of the pilot community when making decisions, no harm done by my part.

 

[TriGear28]

Or he wants to finance the plane. Down here if the bank is financing the plane you need to have full insurance and obviously you need a license if you want to do that.
The issue in Puerto Rico is that the insurance is ridiculously expensive so most of the GA fleet is uninsured (For a 1974 C172M 40,000 insured value we are talking about 6K a year and is not an open pilot policy!!!!)

Guys, how much do you pay for a 172 40K value?

Is b/c of Hull or Liability? That's incredibly high and, I have to be honest, I don't think I could justify paying 60/hour in insurance either. (based on 100 hrs/yr). Is that due to higher theft rates perhaps? It's amazing that GA has managed to stay hanging on in the 48 so I feel for all the guys that have an additional burden like that on them or the risk that the plane won't be there when you swing by the tarmac.

 

[Palmpilot]

This is Pilots of America... not Pilots of the Caribbean.

True, but Alaska is part of America.

 

[1600vw]

This is like killing someone, going into the police station to say you did it and expecting to walk out with a golden ribbon... Nothing in this situation will turn out well if you don't keep it zipped... that includes posting on the WORLD wide web

My grandfather did this and the local police gave him an award for taking out a menis from the streets.

Its a long story but took place during the copone years....

On topic..If the FAA already nows this is happening in Alaska how can they go after someone doing it.

Turn your back on one pilot but go after the next. Sounds like a witch hunt....not saying that is whats happening here..Just saying...sounds like a state of confusion...

 

[Jeff Oslick]

On topic..If the FAA already nows this is happening in Alaska how can they go after someone doing it.

Turn your back on one pilot but go after the next. Sounds like a witch hunt....not saying that is whats happening here..Just saying...sounds like a state of confusion...

You're less likely to get a ticket driving 90 mph on Interstate 5 driving a Prius than driving a red Corvette.

Flying without a cert in Alaska is like driving 75 in the left lane on the freeway. The cops just don't care that much.

 

[SkyHog]

Has anyone suggested the obvious solution yet?

Don't use those hours to get your cert. Then, once you have the cert, relog them with a different date (after your PPL was obtained) and blam! Instant 400 hours. Then, ditch that original logbook and forget you ever had it.

Is it legal? No. But neither is flying without a license.

 

[poadeleted21]

Great minds think alike. (Though cap'n Ron didn't approve )

Has anyone suggested the obvious solution yet?

Don't use those hours to get your cert. Then, once you have the cert, relog them with a different date (after your PPL was obtained) and blam! Instant 400 hours. Then, ditch that original logbook and forget you ever had it.

Is it legal? No. But neither is flying without a license.

Go in with your 60 hour log book, pass your PPL. Then every now and then copy an entry from "your other log book" into your real log book, changing only the date to be in a logical sequence sometime after your PPL checkride. You're going to need 50 hours XC + some hood time, only some of which have to be with a CFI. You can do your PPL now and your IR will take hardly any time, then just add an entry here and there to get all your time back. I mean, if you get to pick and chose what regs to follow, why the hell not? You can go straight after the merge.

 

[azure]

Unless the OP needs logged hours for some purpose (like a job), I don't see the point in that sort of thing. I didn't read the whole necro-thread but I didn't have the impression from the first post that he was going to fly professionally. The only thing he might need hours for is an advanced rating like instrument or commercial, and if he keeps flying he'll log those legitimately pretty fast.

 

[bluee]

Has the original poster ever come back to tell us if he passed a checkride yet?