400 hours.. But no PPL

Hey guys,

Dont be so harsh on the Alaskan boy. That is their reality. Down here in the Caribbean we got our fair share of uncertified dudes. I know for sure that the FAA knows the issue. Las time I checked probably between 40 to 50 percent of the pilots in AK are not certified. But as the OP posted, it is their reality and they have to survive. Can you imagine your wife bothering you telling " Honey, you need to go to Walmart to buy some stuff"... And you replying.. Ok ok I will scrap the ice from the plane as soon as the football game is over....

That is their world.... Their real world... Take it easy on him..
 
Cmercado said:
Hey guys,

Dont be so harsh on the Alaskan boy. That is their reality. Down here in the Caribbean we got our fair share of uncertified dudes. I know for sure that the FAA knows the issue. Las time I checked probably between 40 to 50 percent of the pilots in AK are not certified. But as the OP posted, it is their reality and they have to survive. Can you imagine your wife bothering you telling " Honey, you need to go to Walmart to buy some stuff"... And you replying.. Ok ok I will scrap the ice from the plane as soon as the football game is over....

That is their world.... Their real world... Take it easy on him..
Click to expand...

Thanks for adding your perspective to the discussion.

The thing that gets me is the way some of us assume people are trolling if they post about experiences that are outside our own comfortable government-controlled environment.
 
Palmpilot said:
Thanks for adding your perspective to the discussion.

The thing that gets me is the way some of us assume people are trolling if they post about experiences that are outside our own comfortable government-controlled environment.
Click to expand...

The issue is that some guys in the forum truly believe that cont 48 US is the norm... The truth is that in the caribbean there are a lot of what we call pirates and the FAA knows about them. I know a case where one the pirates got busted and the FAA make him took the PPL in less than a month... Then a 60 day suspension on his brand new PPL certificate.

Ridiculous... But its the way the system works...
 
Palmpilot said:
Thanks for adding your perspective to the discussion.

The thing that gets me is the way some of us assume people are trolling if they post about experiences that are outside our own comfortable government-controlled environment.
Click to expand...

If the FAA and the NTSB were disbanded today. How many pilots would have a panic attack. By the responses in this thread I would think that 50% of the pilots would be standing around their FBO's, wondering if they can fly. I would guess that the pilots in Alaska may have trouble telling the difference.
 
Cmercado said:
Hey guys,

Dont be so harsh on the Alaskan boy. That is their reality. Down here in the Caribbean we got our fair share of uncertified dudes. I know for sure that the FAA knows the issue. Las time I checked probably between 40 to 50 percent of the pilots in AK are not certified. But as the OP posted, it is their reality and they have to survive. Can you imagine your wife bothering you telling " Honey, you need to go to Walmart to buy some stuff"... And you replying.. Ok ok I will scrap the ice from the plane as soon as the football game is over....

That is their world.... Their real world... Take it easy on him..
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think this thread has been pretty tame.
 
Unregistered said:
What about a very small town (population about 1,500 souls..) that the "airport" is a 2000 ft dirt strip close to our home that we built ourselves and is basically the only way of getting supplies to the people living there.... Do you really think the FAA is going to make a ramp check? The FAA doesnt know that we exist dam it!!!!!!

Guys, sometimes we think that the continental 48 states are the center of the universe.... With the nonsense regulations and stupid burocracies...... This is real life.... Planes are working machines.... They are not toys around here..... People fly because its the way of putting food in your table.... Do you really think that my 1965 C182 will care if my Garmin 796 or my very nice Dynon "Experimental" EFIS is "Non certfied" for approaches?? Please... Tell that to a guy that when his kids are sick the only way to get decent healthcare is by your old trusty bird....

Sorry.... I am venting.... But sometimes when I read about all the BS about FARs and regulations and certifications I feel sick.... I am not saying that they are not necessary for us to live in order and peace.... But fellow pilots believing and arguing about some of this crap is ridiculous.....
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Then get the FARs changed, but stop your bitchin.

By the way, do you have liability insurance on your 182 without your pilots license, or is that just a stupid lower 48 thing too?
 
nddons said:
Then get the FARs changed, but stop your bitchin.

By the way, do you have liability insurance on your 182 without your pilots license, or is that just a stupid lower 48 thing too?
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In the Caribbean probably 80 % of the planes are uninsured... Only the ones that are financed are required to be insured.... Once again.... There is a world outside of US cont 48.....
 
Cmercado said:
In the Caribbean probably 80 % of the planes are uninsured... Only the ones that are financed are required to be insured.... Once again.... There is a world outside of US cont 48.....
Click to expand...

I said liability, not hull. I couldn't care less if he can't afford to to fix his plane. I do care about the plane load of tourists that he hits in a mid-air collision on their way to the glaciers, where the OP missed the Beaver because he was double checking his grocery list.
 
nddons said:
I said liability, not hull. I couldn't care less if he can't afford to to fix his plane. I do care about the plane load of tourists that he hits in a mid-air collision on their way to the glaciers, where the OP missed the Beaver because he was double checking his grocery list.
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Guys, come on, face it.. See the statitstics.... Alaska is another planet... The Caribbean is another planet..... There is life outside of Cont 48 US. I am not saying that the OP is a hero... He is doing wrong.... But even the FAA understand their different enviroments.... Dont be so ostrich.... There is another parallel word outside NTSB and FAA..
 
This is simple. The reason one has to pass a checkride is to demonstrate basic ability for that level. Just saying "aw, he's a good pilot, cut him some slack," does ZERO to ensure anything. Even a checkride only ensures that on that particular day, a pilot met the minimums, but it is something.

Want to turn that around and say, "But I am a highly competent pilot, even without the certificate!" Good. Go find a CFI to endorse you, and a DPE to test you, and PROVE it.

This might be one or two flights out of all those you have done. And you know that you only need to renew your medical, not your certificate, right?

If it is a once-in-a-lifetime thing (or twice for the IR), why not buy an airline ticket to the lower 48 and get it done in a weekend?
 
Dead Stick said:
Back in the early '80s I was flying for a company in Wyoming. One of the local pilots came up to me one afternoon and asked me if I was a CFI. He mentioned that he had a problem and wanted to know how to handle it. It seems that several years earlier, be had bought a new Cessna 182 and started taking flying lessons in it. The problem was he stopped his flying lessons, but he never stopped his flying. Over the intervening 7 or 8 years he had continued to fly and dutifully log his time. He showed me his logbook and he had just over 700 hours of flight time, including around 20 hours of dual from way back when. He had flown that 182 all over the country, he just had never bothered with the formality of taking a written test, a checkride, of a flight physical. (He did tell me that he had a physical every year with his doctor.) His question to me was could I help him get straight with the FAA? I called one of my buddies at the FSDO and asked him what I should do and how I should go about doing it. My inspector buddy told me that there was a lot of that stuff going around. It seems that there were quite a few that ranchers had airplanes and a few of them just weren't overly concerned about stuff like licenses, inspections, physicals and technical things like that. Nowadays, we talk about a kinder, gentler FAA, but back then all they wanted to do is to get the guy legal. The guy went into the big city and got a flight physical and attended one of those weekend ground schools and passed the written. I gave him a few hours dual to"polish the apple" for the checkride - it didn't take much, he was a pretty good stick. Finally, once all of his ducks were in a row, I sent him to a DPE that the FAA recommended and he walked away with a license in his pocket.

My recommendation is to find a well connected local CFI and have a heart-to-heart talk with him. My advise to you is that you have better be very penitent and very serious when you have that talk. Hopefully he will be willing to give the guys at the local FSDO a call and have a "Let's suppose there was this guy who had done something very stupid but wanted to come clean. How might be the best way to handle this?" As you have learned, it's usually best to play by the rules. If the Feds ever find out about this on their own you will be screwed. In my opinion it will be best to come clean and move forward. Good luck to you.
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OK, so a lot of you guys don't like my advice to the OP. That's fine, but so far, I'm the only individual that has had actual experience dealing with someone in the OP's exact situation. By the way, I do not think he's a troll. I've run into guys like him before, they're out there. They've been encountered at all levels of aviation. How many of you guys remember the captain at one of the major airlines that only held a private license? Sure, the OP can hide or even destroy his "real" logbook, but if he's ever found out his license and ratings will be revoked and he'll have to start over. Can he get away with it? Perhaps, but the worry about being found out will never go away. At the very least, I'd get in touch with a good aviation attorney and get this matter taken care of once and for all. That way, he won't have to worry about getting found out at some point down the road.

Granted, my dealings with the FAA over this were over 20 years ago and who knows, these days they may be all about socking it to that SOB, but maybe not. I stand by my recommendation.
 
Unregistered said:
And just to let you, I am IFR trained... The issue is that I am not certified... Two different things...
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I've known enough people from Alaska to know that things are a little different. If you want to get legal, it should be simple and straight forward. Your answer is entirely about the proper documentation.


Throw away your old logbooks, or at least put them away in a drawer that only you have they key for. Then start a new log book and go get the minimum 40 hours for PPL. If youv'e been flying for 400 hours, you should be pretty good at it - hopefully good enough for an instructor to sign you off solo, say between your house, his house and the grocery store. Once you have 40 hours accumulated and all the other required experience properly documented, go take your written, take your checkride and you're done. Move on to getting your legal IFR ticket.


Your question is how to get legal, right? That's the process. It isn't really up to negotiation, those are the requirements. It's a game of the beauracracy. You check the boxes they want checked and they do X. If you don't check the boxes, they do Not X.
 
ok, so things are different there, you may all be stuck in your houses due to the weather, a neighbor slips, falls, and slices their abdomen - do you go over and practice general surgery? The AMA would probably understand. I can't see this as the only recourse to Alaskan villager's situations - but I do understand the need for survival. You got to do what you got to do...but.... come on.
 
Unregistered said:
Between flight training and properly endorsed solo flights I have about 60 something hours... The rest of them are without an endorsement and a lot of them carrying passengers..
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Other than committing a felony I'm not seeing it. Anyone else?

Why do you think this is legal, desirable or smart? It's not 1922 anymore.
 
bflynn said:
Throw away your old logbooks, or at least put them away in a drawer that only you have they key for. Then start a new log book and go get the minimum 40 hours for PPL.
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Did you miss the part where he said that one of his logbooks only has legal time in it?
 
This like reading about some Aborigine who never heard of government, who now wants to become civilized.

I'm halfway wondering why bother at this stage of the game? Unless you are planning on traveling south why not leave the warpaint on and keep dancing where you are?

For my own part, I think it is ridiculous that a seasoned pilot, one who is probably better at flying than most licensed pilots, should have an need for an attorney.

If you really are hell bent on becoming civilized (It ain't all it's cracked up to be.) just forget about trying to use your "illegal" hours, and start building the time legally. You should breeze through most all of it.

If your not planning on leaving your own stomping grounds, I'm wondering why bother now at this stage of the game? Of course there is that pesky insurance thing.....

-John
 
This kind of stuff happens in places other then Alaska!!

I met an older guy (who owns his own airplane) about a year ago at an airport I fly at - 20 years ago he won several competitions including spot landing and bag drops - at that time he was a very good stick and rudder pilot - just a bit lacking on the rest.

He has been flying ever since that.

He just got his PPL last year for the first time.

Funny thing - I know several people in this same area in the same situation - one was invlvoed in a crash about 2 years ago - never showed up on a NTSB report - I got the funny feeling that that the powers that be realy did not want other peple to know how much of this happens all the time.
 
Benchracer52 said:
This kind of stuff happens in places other then Alaska!!

I met an older guy (who owns his own airplane) about a year ago at an airport I fly at - 20 years ago he won several competitions including spot landing and bag drops - at that time he was a very good stick and rudder pilot - just a bit lacking on the rest.

He has been flying ever since that.

He just got his PPL last year for the first time.

Funny thing - I know several people in this same area in the same situation - one was invlvoed in a crash about 2 years ago - never showed up on a NTSB report - I got the funny feeling that that the powers that be realy did not want other peple to know how much of this happens all the time.
Click to expand...
That is what I am talking about. I know of two incidents of guys flying twins that scratch their bellies in wheel up landings that were not certified.

Probably the OP situation is a lot more common than we believe.But the FAA simply dont have the resources to enforce their policies or they simply look the order side..... I dont think this guy is a troll at all. It happens a lot out of 48 US.
 
Most of the posters have not read the original posts in detail. Using the 60 hour logbook, hire a CFI and pass the written. Take the ride wtih a DPE ride, Be legal.
 
My dad followed a somewhat similar path in the 70's here in Georgia, he bought a new 182 in the summer of 72 and flew it until 1979 or 1980, he got his PPL in 78 or 79. :dunno: He would pass his written, let his medical lapse, then renew his medical and his written had lapsed. Basically he had a couple friends with PPL's and usually one of them flew with him when they traveled. The plane had 240 hours on it when I started flying in 1984 and he put all but maybe 20 of those hours on it before his checkride. :hairraise:
He was a good pilot, flew out of a 1500 foot grass strip, that I am pretty sure measured closer to 1250. :rolleyes: But, he did finally pass his checkride on the first try. My student pilot son has maybe 45 hours logged plus another 20+ with me in the right seat that he can't log, but we aren't going to add them back in after his checkride, they are just father-son time. ;)
 
Just read this whole thread (you're right Henning, at a certain point no more good was to come of it.) , but I'm confused by the OP.

To the OP-

Why do you care so much about your 400 illegal hours? What do they matter?

Why are you choosing to go legit? It clearly sounds like there is no need to.

If you do go clean with your license, what about your illegal plane? Are you going to go to the huge hassle and expense of cleaning that up too?

Your motivations aren't clear. Oh yeah, and just to stir the pot, it seems a little ironic, or hypocritical to choose to live off the grid in rugged survival mode, disregard the laws of the land and then ***** about the lack of government services. Have you paid all your federal income taxes that are due?
 
Flying IFR with no IFR rating...you're an accident waiting to happen. Your excuses are a pathetic attempt to justify breaking the law/regs. You are a hazard to the rest of us...either get the ratings or stop it.
 
Palmpilot said:
Did you miss the part where he said that one of his logbooks only has legal time in it?
Click to expand...

Probably. If that's the case, then he still has to check off the experience boxes - simulated IFR, long XC, total XC, night.

If all of that is included in the 60 hours, then get 3 hours of pre-exam instruction + written + a checkride.
 
Unregistered said:
Well.... If you think I am a troll....

Yes..

Try spending 1 month here.....

I have..
Do you really think what I posted here is a lie?? Ron, I respect you because I know that you are one of the best instructors in this country... But you need a taste of the real world.. Ask any pilot in Alaska... You will see...
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Your story doesn't pass the sniff test. because the DNR folks, the Park service, the native american patrols and the Alaskan State police and the FAA all patrol the airports in Alaska.

when you do some thing stupid they will be on you like stink on Scat.

If you really want your certificate go see Mike Morgan at Warblows in Fairbanks.
And tell him I sent you
 
Guys,

Is that true that in Alaska the CTOWs (take off weight) are 25 % higher than US48? Sorry for the derailment but does anybody knows the science of it?
 
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Were this the first post I saw on POA it would be the last.

Let's see. Lots of very sanctimonious stuff from the lower 48 pilots. Personally, I think if the OP can fly hundreds of hours in Alaska, he's way better than me. I am never taking my aircraft to Alaska, no way. I'm just not that good a stick, and don't really have enough airplane.

I've heard the same things about Alaska time and time again, and I believe it. Too many square miles and too little government.

Something the OP should maybe think about, airplane crashes in Alaska are like car crashes in the lower 48. I remember watching one of the pilots on one of the "Amazing Alaska Pilots" shows flying through a valley I wouldn't fly through on a dare. Not only was it a normal everyday occurrence, but the sides of the valley were just littered with crashed airplanes.

Given the number of crashes up there, I for one would not brag too loudly about my and my colleague's lack of credentials. I'm not saying that the training and recurrent training are going to make anything safer up there. But I doubt they'd make things worse.

Good luck to the OP if he's still reading.
 
steingar said:
I am never taking my aircraft to Alaska, no way. I'm just not that good a stick, and don't really have enough airplane.
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When I lived in Denver a friend of mine took his Dad to Alaska (flew from Denver) in a 150 hp Grumman Cheetah. They had a blast, and flew it all over Alaska as well as locally in the Rockies.

You have plenty of plane and plenty of skill to do that trip.
 
I would think that the secrets to survival for a lower-48 pilot flying in Alaska would be careful planning, always having an out and being willing to use it, knowing your limitations, and being very flexible on departure dates and times.
 
Anthony said:
When I lived in Denver a friend of mine took his Dad to Alaska (flew from Denver) in a 150 hp Grumman Cheetah. They had a blast, and flew it all over Alaska as well as locally in the Rockies.

You have plenty of plane and plenty of skill to do that trip.
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I will say it again. NO fraking way. Lots of guys race motorcycles, perform in air shows, do all sorts of things. Just because some of them avoid turning into wannabe zombies doesn't make it safe. No Alaska, not in my airplane, not for this VFR pilot. Too damn many ways to buy it hard. Too few skills and ponies to have enough outs. No way.

This boy has a lot of respect for the guys who fly in what they fly in in Alaska. Enough that you wouldn't see him flying in it. Plenty of lower 48 to fly in. Gets plenty cold where I live too.
 
steingar said:
I will say it again. NO fraking way. Lots of guys race motorcycles, perform in air shows, do all sorts of things. Just because some of them avoid turning into wannabe zombies doesn't make it safe. No Alaska, not in my airplane, not for this VFR pilot. Too damn many ways to buy it hard. Too few skills and ponies to have enough outs. No way.

This boy has a lot of respect for the guys who fly in what they fly in in Alaska. Enough that you wouldn't see him flying in it. Plenty of lower 48 to fly in. Gets plenty cold where I live too.
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All you lack is confidence which you seem to have for lower 48 flying. What I'm curious about is if you buy it hard vs buying it soft, are you any less dead? The only difference I see is the cost of shipping your remains home. For me, Alaska will be cheaper since they can just leave me in place to be eaten as nature intended.
 
Just a comment on the OPs predicament, a lot of people talk about how the OP will be "screwed" if he gets caught. How? I guess they can try to revoke his non-existent ticket, but in the end unless they post a permanent FAA inspector at his dirt strip, it's not going to affect his flying habits one bit. I guess they can fine him, which they may or may not be able to collect.

Just an observation. He should definitely get legal, but the idea he'll get screwed otherwise may be coming from our overly-controlled lower 48 mentality.

Oh, and he should cover that logbook full of illegal hours in seal blood and feed it to a polar bear. Then shoot the bear. Then burn the bear's corpse to cinders. Then scatter the ashes in the ocean.
 
Henning said:
All you lack is confidence which you seem to have for lower 48 flying. What I'm curious about is if you buy it hard vs buying it soft, are you any less dead? The only difference I see is the cost of shipping your remains home. For me, Alaska will be cheaper since they can just leave me in place to be eaten as nature intended.
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Several pilots and planes just disappear in Alaska, never to be heard from again. Any one that has flown in Alaska will understand. Pilots with out this experience will be clueless about Alaska.
 
bullwinkle said:
Oh, and he should cover that logbook full of illegal hours in seal blood and feed it to a polar bear. Then shoot the bear. Then burn the bear's corpse to cinders. Then scatter the ashes in the ocean.
Click to expand...

Or, he could just write "Microsoft Flight Simulator time" on the front page!
 
Garthur said:
Several pilots and planes just disappear in Alaska, never to be heard from again. Any one that has flown in Alaska will understand. Pilots with out this experience will be clueless about Alaska.
Click to expand...

Are you less dead if you're found? People are clueless regardless in anything until they do it and earn their clue. BTW, pilots and planes go missing in the lower 48 as well, they found several just while looking for Steve Fossett's remains. The plane does not fly differently because it's in Alaska.
 
Henning said:
The plane does not fly differently because it's in Alaska.
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No, but there are lots of mountains, wilderness, arctic cold, weather, wild animals and other fun things to reduce the chances of surviving a mechanical breakdown.

Just like some folks won't fly over large bodies of water or at night. Risk tolerance. I'll fly over water, and I'll fly at night. I certainly won't be flying to Alaska. That's a motorcycle trip anyway.
 
steingar said:
No, but there are lots of mountains, wilderness, arctic cold, weather, wild animals and other fun things to reduce the chances of surviving a mechanical breakdown.

Just like some folks won't fly over large bodies of water or at night. Risk tolerance. I'll fly over water, and I'll fly at night. I certainly won't be flying to Alaska. That's a motorcycle trip anyway.
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Except that in the summer season when most people elect to go it's not that cold and you have daylight up to 24 hrs a day if you go far enough north. The mountains in Alaska are no more dangerous than those in the lower 48 and we have desert down here that will kill you just as fast as the article tundra.
 
My biggest issue with flying in AK wouldn't be the weather or the terrain, I can control when and how I fly through that. The biggest issue I see is flying one of the well traveled routes with dozens of other idiots trying to squeeze between the same pass. I lived for a year 3 blocks from Merrill Field, a lot of planes hammering the area.

A lot of the airports in AK don't have anywhere near the density altitude concerns of the rocky mountains, around Anchorage anyway, days over 80F are few and far between.

I wouldn't recommend trying to land a 150HP Cherokee on top of a Mountain or on a sandbar in 100' or less but airport to airport on a severe VFR day? Just go around the rocks.
 
steingar said:
No, but there are lots of mountains, wilderness, arctic cold, weather, wild animals and other fun things to reduce the chances of surviving a mechanical breakdown.

Just like some folks won't fly over large bodies of water or at night. Risk tolerance. I'll fly over water, and I'll fly at night. I certainly won't be flying to Alaska. That's a motorcycle trip anyway.
Click to expand...

People WALK to their deaths around here. They hike out, get lost, and die of exposure. You don't have to worry about breaking down in Alaska, just to for a walk in the woods here in the Lower 48 and lose your bearings. You'll die within walking distance of help once the sun goes down, if you're not equipped to spend a night out.

The difference with Alaska is that it's a lot bigger search area. If you survive the landing, there are great tools to fix that problem. If you forgot your long johns, no fix for that.
 
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