2 Airplanes Same IFR Flight Plan

[boom3]

Suppose you and a friend wanted to both fly IFR to the same airport for breakfast. If you both filed to depart at the same time from the same airport, same route, same altitude, same TAS, etc, how long would ATC hold you for release after they clear your friend for departure.

To take it a step further, once you are both enroute you both request the same appraoch. I'm guessing the first guy will have to be down and cancelled before they'll clear you for the approach? (not visual or contact)

Would anything change if it was CAVU or IMC?

Just curious, seems like a realistic scenario.

 

[ahkahn]

I would imagine standard separation would apply. Or, you could go VFR in formation.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Are you taking off/ landing at an untowered airport?

 

[roncachamp]

Suppose you and a friend wanted to both fly IFR to the same airport for breakfast. If you both filed to depart at the same time from the same airport, same route, same altitude, same TAS, etc, how long would ATC hold you for release after they clear your friend for departure.

Given those conditions the second aircraft would have to wait until minimum longitudinal separation could be assured; ten minutes in a nonradar environment, five miles in an enroute radar environment, possibly three miles if terminal radar is used.

To take it a step further, once you are both enroute you both request the same appraoch. I'm guessing the first guy will have to be down and cancelled before they'll clear you for the approach? (not visual or contact)

Yes, if it's an untowered field.

Would anything change if it was CAVU or IMC?

Somewhat, the availability of visual separation is better in CAVU conditions than in IMC.

 

[Hank S]

Suppose you and a friend wanted to both fly IFR to the same airport for breakfast. If you both filed to depart at the same time from the same airport, same route, same altitude, same TAS, etc, how long would ATC hold you for release after they clear your friend for departure.

To take it a step further, once you are both enroute you both request the same appraoch. I'm guessing the first guy will have to be down and cancelled before they'll clear you for the approach? (not visual or contact)

Would anything change if it was CAVU or IMC?

Just curious, seems like a realistic scenario.

I've done the second part of this on a breakfast run to the next county. Three planes enroute together, non towered at both ends. We needed a pop-up clearance to get through a layer not reported on AWOS and not forecast.

ATC cleared the first one in and put us in holds and gave Tail End Charlie a vector away from the hold to climb. Once the first broke through and called field in sight, the next one was released. I think I broke out around 2200 msl, field elevation 667.

 

[poadeleted20]

Or, you could go VFR in formation.

...assuming the two pilots are competent formation pilots, which most GA pilots are not (although training in this area is available from groups like FFI and FAST). The rules do allow IFR formation flight, but that's not something of which even the average formation-competent GA pilot is capable, and which isn't included in FFI or FAST training.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've done the second part of this on a breakfast run to the next county. Three planes enroute together, non towered at both ends. We needed a pop-up clearance to get through a layer not reported on AWOS and not forecast.

ATC cleared the first one in and put us in holds and gave Tail End Charlie a vector away from the hold to climb. Once the first broke through and called field in sight, the next one was released. I think I broke out around 2200 msl, field elevation 667.

I imagine ATC waited until the first plane cancelled IFR, rather than just calling "field in sight". And be careful about cancelling IFR to expedite the next aircraft's approach clearance. AOPA Legal Counsel had a piece some years ago about someone doing that when the airport was inside a dashed magenta line signifying Class E to the surface, but the weather was below 1000-3. He got busted for being VFR in IMC -- see 91.155(c) and (d) for details.

 

[boom3]

Given those conditions the second aircraft would have to wait until minimum longitudinal separation could be assured; ten minutes in a nonradar environment, five miles in an enroute radar environment, possibly three miles if terminal radar is used.

Exactly what I was wondering, thank you!

 

[boom3]

...assuming the two pilots are competent formation pilots, which most GA pilots are not (although training in this area is available from groups like FFI and FAST). The rules do allow IFR formation flight, but that's not something of which even the average formation-competent GA pilot is capable, and which isn't included in FFI or FAST training.

I've heard of this and although it's intriguing I don't think it's something I'd take part in. I've had probably had 8 or 10 hours of FFI training but haven't went for a card.

So I guess 2 or more airplanes filed as one IFR "flight"? (Remarks section?) All airplanes and Pilots IFR rated.
One clearance with one squawk code? (Others turn transponders off?) Seems like it would work well for departure and enroute. What do they do with you at the other end? Can you fly an approach in formation? I'm guessing yes? All types of approaches?

 

[poadeleted20]

I've heard of this and although it's intriguing I don't think it's something I'd take part in. I've had probably had 8 or 10 hours of FFI training but haven't went for a card.

It's not for everyone, but I'm glad you tried it, and did it right by going to FFI.

So I guess 2 or more airplanes filed as one IFR "flight"? (Remarks section?)

If you're using the old flight plan forms, you put it in the aircraft type box with the number of planes slash type, e.g., 2/F111/T (two F-111's, both TACAN equipped). Newer computer-based systems have other ways to enter it (e.g., ForeFlight has a block for number of aircraft).

All airplanes and Pilots IFR rated.

Right -- all pilots and all airplanes must be equipped and certified for IFR flight.

One clearance with one squawk code? (Others turn transponders off?)

STBY is more often used than OFF, but yes, in a standard formation (all aircraft within one mile horizontally and 100 feet vertically of the lead plane), only Lead squawks.

Seems like it would work well for departure and enroute. What do they do with you at the other end? Can you fly an approach in formation? I'm guessing yes? All types of approaches?

Depends on weather and type of approach. In good visual conditions, you just bring the flight to initial for an overhead approach, splitting up the formation by breaking at intervals of 2-5 seconds for individual downwind/base/final/landing. In marginal conditions, you can break the flight into 2's (i.e., 4-ship splits into two 2-ships under Approach control) and make section approaches and formation landings by 2's. In really poor weather, you get Approach to split you into individual aircraft for regular single-ship approaches.

 

[boom3]

It's not for everyone, but I'm glad you tried it, and did it right by going to FFI.

Ya I sure enjoyed it and still practice on occasion. Probably the highlight of it all was being able to participate in a couple of missing man formations for veterans. Unfortunately one of the veterans was our formation lead who succumbed to brain cancer.

(e.g., ForeFlight has a block for number of aircraft).

Funny I've started using Foreflight to file and didn't even notice that. I guess I noticed it but never gave it any thought.

Thanks for your thorough response!