177RG Lake Havasu

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by pmanton, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. pmanton

    pmanton Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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  2. JohnAJohnson

    JohnAJohnson Cleared for Takeoff

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  3. pmanton

    pmanton Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Followup on this. It was a chap from Texas. It was hotter than the hinges of Hades at Havasu when this happened.
     
  4. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    Cardinals aren't the hottest high density altitude performers. We only fly with a crew of 2, some cameras, and small overnight bags. Out in the Midland area it isn't uncommon for the heat to slow our climb rate to 3-400 fps with a relatively fresh engine.
     
  5. FlyingElvii

    FlyingElvii Line Up and Wait

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    Per Flightaware, it was 109 degrees, density was 4372 about that time.
     
  6. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    Don’t know the performance, but with one on board should of been fine. The plane would be doggy of course, lower climb rate, lower nose attitude.
     
  7. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    It was an RG, which has a 200-hp fuel injected engine, and there was only one person on board. This is not one of the early 150-hp models. Unless it was really loaded with cargo, performance should not have been a serious issue, even with the heat. There was 8000 feet of runway. Perhaps combined with something else going on it might, but DA alone shouldn't haven't caused this.
     
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  8. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've got several hundred hours in Cardinal RGs. Last June I ferried one from North Carolina to Washington state. It was fully loaded for every leg with myself, the new owner, his wife and all their luggage from a (unrelated) very long trip. They aren't STOL planes but they fly well and haul a pretty good load. The one I owned had a useful load of 1006 lbs and this one had something like 980 lbs.

    On the trip we were at max gross for every takeoff. It was hot so DA was an issue at every place we landed. I insisted that every runway be at least 5000' long and I monitored every takeoff roll to verify they matched my calculated distances (they did).
    The longest takeoff roll was out of Casper, WY which was 5500' MSL and it was quite hot. We took off from runway 21 and were off at the intersection with the crossing runway. Google confirms that to be about 2350'. Climb was not exciting but it was safe.

    One occupant in this plane and an 8000' runway should not have been an issue.
     
  9. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Another thread on this accident.
     
  10. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    No, that is the Gone West thread-- a tribute to the pilot we lost. This is the thread discussing the accident.
     
  11. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's how I got here. It is mostly a condolences and mutual support thread so I didn't want to dirty it up with data. RIP to the pilot.
     
  12. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Sorry. I suspect DA has something to do with it, though.
     
  13. Mikey B

    Mikey B Pre-Flight

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    I believe (based on his past posts) that Gary had a hangar at Eagle Airpark (A09), about 30 miles north of KHII, with only a 4,800 ft. runway. KHII is only 300 ft. higher and has an 8,000-ft. runway, so I doubt that DA would have surprised him. I wonder, though, if he went to KHII to fuel up (none available at A09), so was leaving at a much higher gross weight.

    Or, of course, misfueling, though it's hard to see anyone putting Jet A in a Cardinal.

    In any case, RIP, Gary, and condolences to his family and friends.
     
  14. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    The last flight aware track showed him being airborne for 11 minutes, so misfueling seems rather unlikely. I would also say though, that density altitude of ~4,000ft isn’t very high and should be well within the capabilities of a 200hp Cardinal, especially with one passenger. I’ll be following this one…
     
  15. mr_happyland

    mr_happyland Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think that was his previous flight. The crash occurred just south of the runway.
     
  16. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Comments on kathryns report mentioned plane took all of 8000’ of that runway. Not sure how they can determine that. Seems odd. God bless.
     
  17. Daleandee

    Daleandee Pattern Altitude

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  18. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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  19. Kyle N

    Kyle N Filing Flight Plan

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    Look at the times. There is a 20 min gap in the data points between the midfield and departure end of runway.
     
  20. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

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    control lock not removed?
     
  21. Rushie

    Rushie En-Route

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    That was when he taxied off and went to the FBO, then taxied back to the (almost) start of the runway. Do the little animation of all the legs, the taxi is grey lines. It is confusing, there are two orange lines for part of the way on the active, the landing one and the departing one.

    Zoom in up close makes it easier.
     
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Expand out. The previous landing and the departure get muddled together. The first hit on the departure is at 23:07:57 at about taxiway A5. Last hit over the runway at 23:08:54, then it veers right and the last hit is 23:09:03.

    upload_2021-9-15_14-23-9.png
     
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  23. Kyle N

    Kyle N Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks for the clarification that makes more sense.
     
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The thing I’m noticing about speeds is they reduce as the takeoff progresses. They are groundspeeds only as accurate as can calculated by the computer doing time/distance calculations. First hit on the departure is 60 about midfield by taxiway A3. Next is a couple 65’s then it slows down. 56,56,54,54,54. I’m beginning to wondering about climbing out of ground effect issues maybe?? Flap setting?? SOP for Cardinals is 10 degrees for takeoff then dump them soon after getting airborne.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  25. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    I don't know what to make of those numbers, either. I didn't know if they were ground speed or airspeed. What were the winds? My 180 hp fixed gear Cardinal quickly gets up to 65 and 70 knots, even when it's hot and humid. So, those numbers for a 200-hp version seem like the plane wasn't making great power, although admittedly, I am not sure how those numbers translate to the actual airspeed in light of winds, climb angle, and adjustments for atmospheric conditions, etc. But given the way the air speed declines, does that suggest that something happened that reduced the plane's power from the additional takeoff roll?
     
  26. Kansas Flyer

    Kansas Flyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have to wonder if vapor lock was an issue with those outside temps. I've rejected takeoffs after an engine stumble a couple of times on hot days when the fuel pressure dropped off at full throttle. I was burning mogas which has a lower vapor pressure than 100LL so that probably contributed.
     
  27. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    That's an idea, but pretty hard to do in the Cardinal if the normal control lock was being used. It is right in the control column in front of you and there is a big metal flag which hangs down to the left to cover the magneto/ignition switch. I suppose one could also even quickly pull it out in flight if necessary (not that I would want to try!)
     
  28. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    This was from the Gone West thread and has some interesting discussion of the numbers.

     
  29. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. Ya can't put to much stock into the speeds themselves, but comparing the increases and decreases to each other can tell a story. I used to own a 177B also and I've flown RG's. Not much difference. When would you usually dump the 10 degrees of takeoff flaps? As far as how much that 200 horse engine was producing then, who knows. The DA was high enough that leaning for departure would have been something to think about. Post accident investigation will show where the red knob was.
     
  30. PPC1052

    PPC1052 Final Approach

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    Usually at about 500 feet AGL.
     
  31. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    This.
     
  32. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I always do it after gear up and above 90 indicated, otherwise you get a pronounced sag in climb rate.
     
  33. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    MPH or Knots
     
  34. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Knots
     
  35. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    Mogas has a much higher vapor pressure than 100LL, which can cause vapor lock.
     
  36. Flyxaos

    Flyxaos Filing Flight Plan

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    When you say "Mogas" does that mean ethanol free or include with ethanol? My question really is does ethanol free pump gas have the same vapor issue? We fly a Rotax 912 and use ethanol free premium.
     
  37. PaulMillner

    PaulMillner Line Up and Wait

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    Mogas means gasoline for motor cars, aka passenger cars. So mogas includes both ethanol-free and ethanol containing blends, depending on what's available where you are. Ethanol is a vapor pressure antagonist... it will raise mogas vapor pressure about one PSI.
    That said, in the summertime, mogas and avgas have about the same vapor pressure... 7 PSI. In the wintertime, avgas is still 7 PSI, but mogas can be as much as twice that.

    Paul
     
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  38. PaulMillner

    PaulMillner Line Up and Wait

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    The POH for my '76 RG says that for a maximum performance takeoff, retract flaps as you accelerate through 70 knots. That's what I do, and the climb rate sag is very small or non-existent.
     
  39. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

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  40. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    Two sentences from that article:

    "The report details that the pilot had done some maintenance work because the plane was experiencing some "vibrations" during takeoff and landing."

    "An interview with the pilot's spouse revealed that the pilot had done a majority of his plane's maintenance."


    Saving money no matter how much it costs?
     
  41. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude

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    Can’t imagine using even 4000’ of the runway … the plane not ready to fly … and continuing the roll.

    (if that information is correct) I’ve rejected one takeoff roll after a bug got lodged in the pitot tube. Always be prepared for it.
     
  42. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    Prelim report is out. Engine tear down showed significant pitting, sprawling, and broken piston rings with scored piston skirts. Past engine oil analysis showed elevated metal signatures indicative of excessive ring wear among other things. Blows my mind how someone ignores so many warning signs when their life is on the line.