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Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Charlie Wolf, Jan 27, 2023.
5K for an AME to handle a difficult case is highway robbery.
Run and run fast from this guy.
I'd only pay $2,500/hr to someone who I thought could keep me out of jail, or get me a really nice ride in a warbird.
Fly light sport and/or motorgliders.
$2500/hour seems a bit steep. Even my plumber doesn’t get that much.
You might try Dr. Lou. @lbfjrmd He’s another difficult-case AME who has been on POA regularly and might be able to help. @WingmanMed is an AME who is new to POA and may also be worth contacting.
This will not be cheap or easy, though, no matter which way you go. Suicidal ideation is something the FAA takes very seriously and it’s likely going to take years and many thousands of dollars and lots of psychiatric exams before they will decide you can be trusted to fly, if they do. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_pilot if you want to understand why.
“A June 2022 Bloomberg News study of crashes involving Western-built commercial airliners revealed that pilot murder-suicides were the second most prevalent cause of airline crash deaths from 2011 to 2020, and that from 1991 to 2020, deaths due to pilot murder-suicides increased while deaths due to accidental causes significantly decreased.”
Legal but perhaps unwise. Get the psychiatric issue under 100% control first, then look into flying options.
Bullpoop statistic for a couple of reasons. First, their study didn't limit it to suicides by FLIGHT CREW, so it includes several flights were cause d by hijackers around the world and it includes all the ground deaths at the WTC and Pentagon on 9/11.
If you cut down to just ones known to be caused by US flight crews (the ones that could be affected by US medical regulations) the number is.... ZERO.
If we include all airline flights crashed by crew members, you have Germanwings 9525 in 2015, LAM 470 in 2013, and RAM 630 in 1994.
There are possibly two more EgyptAir 990 in 1999, Silk Air in 1992 in that timeframe.
So in 30 years we have an event that occurred only once in every five years or so. There's a different kind of statistics you have to apply to make inferences on that.
Now suicide by GA pilots (counting only the certificated ones) isn't much more frequent: 13 in those thirty years, eight in the US. There were only a few deaths other that the pilots, four on the ground and 4 passengers/instructors.
I recall one that happened in Austin… Pilot was upset at the IRS or something. Took off from Georgetown, the kamikazed his PA28 into the building.
Dr. Mitchell Luchansky is a HIMS Psychiatrist, not a HIMS AME. You need to get a consultation with a HIMS AME before going to the psych. Additionally 5k is more than double the rate of most.
You validate the FAA’s position when you write, “If you cut down to just ones known to be caused by US flight crews (the ones that could be affected by US medical regulations) the number is.... ZERO.”
Bottom line - The FAA is quite disinclined to approve medicals for candidates who have had suicidal ideation.
The OP is facing a steep hill. Nearly vertical.
I wasn't commenting on his chances of getting the FAA to approve him without extensive psychiatric evaluation. This I believe. I used to have a good friend who had been a respected flight instructor until his disaster of a marriage caused him to try to kill himself (not just ideation). We went over the mess he'd have to do to get a medical again (and this was back in 1993 or so when things were different). This I don't disagree with. I do have an issue with them cramming everybody who they can get through cogscreen. I swear the reliance on that test for things it wasn't intended for leads me to believe someone at the FAA is getting a kickback.
I was commenting on the bullpoop Bloomberg statement which has nothing but histrionics mocked up as a statistical analysis. But still in the GA arena where there is some data on the US. These pilots all did indeed have medicals so it's not possible to argue that the existing FAA Protocol is a marvelous screen that's keeping the stuff that happened on foreign airliners from happening here.
My gripe on the FAAs misuse of stats goes back even further. When I was fighting the establishment of a complete bullpoop AD, I pointed out that you can't take the fact that an event happened when the rate is something like 3 in 50 years as a sudden increase. Yeah, zero-to-one is a hell of an increase. I finally got the FAA MCO guy or whoever to agree the stats were bunk, but the manufacturer in an attempt to extort money out of the owners claimed there was a defect that needed correction, and the FAA found it is impossible to stop an AD that the manufacturer wants. What they did end up doing is adopting just about any AMOC that you could make a coherent statement for.
You for sure want a consult from someone who will talk frankly about your chances before anything is submitted to the FAA.
The process may be very difficult. But it really depends on the situation.
Charlie, I've heard good things about Dr Blue out of Jackson, WY. It's good you're looking into options. I wish I had instead of going to an AME who didn't know what she was talking about. Dr Blue recommends finding an AME who's a pilot. Also, your case could be simple if you have only been getting counseling this whole time. Best of luck .
I don’t know anything relating to reality on this. But I remember reading something that dr chien or dr Lou wrote that there was a 10 year wait for ideation and even then it was long and hard road with you needing to prove that you were fine. Has that changed at all ? Especially knowing that you are only 4 years out from said event ?
No, it has not…
then I think the good doc is doing you a favor by being “too busy” for 6 more years…. And anybody else taking your money at those rates knowing nothing will work is probably a bad idea for you to pursue …..
Suicidal ideation is something that the FAA has made their stance pretty clear on. They want a ten year window between the event and the current date. I wouldn't want to pay anyone anything until that window existed.
I'm not an AME, certainly not a HIMS AME, nor a psych doc - nor did I stay in a holiday inn express last night. . . but I think you are not hearing the hints that AME's and others are giving you. The FAA seems to be pretty firm on their cool down period for ideation. . And that being the case - if you want to be the first person to break their fairly firm rule - more power to you. Not saying you shouldnt try, but be prepared for a long, costly and difficult road. And if you are trying to pinch dollars (not pennies) and save on this front, while trying to climb this Mt Everest of a hill - I would suggest you start bankrolling dollars, as in having it readily available. Because 5K will just be the start and tip of the iceberg - which will surely fail. . Not sure you having a warchest of 25x or 50x that will it succeed without going through their protocols. Sounds like Dr Chien is trying to save you some time and money which you arent seeming to get.. .
Charlie, I believe if you go down the road of getting certified and get denied, then you cannot fly lightsport after that. Know that you are taking that risk.
I'm sure the AMEs will weigh in, but I think you'll mostly need a decade of a stable life situation without psychiatric issues or self-induced crises. Show that you can hold a steady job, manage your financial situation without distress, maintain personal relationships, avoid any drug/alcohol issues, etc., etc. And of course without suicidal ideation or any sort of self-harm or violence.
I assume you already have your Sport Pilot certificate? Don't do anything that would put it in jeopardy, like losing your driver's license.
"I had a suicidal ideation" can mean a lot of things. You're not going to get a diagnosis based on that across the internet, nor will you get a precise assessment of your chances of receiving a medical. And opinions are like *******s. If you want an assessment of your chances based on your specific circumstances, you will need a consultation with a qualified AME. If you've found one that you're confident in at a price you're comfortable with, that's what matters.
If it's worth that to you to have the answers, then it isn't too much.
Well…. Via con dios
And I was all set to give him a link to a document I found quite a while ago...probably the last time someone couldn't figure out where the ten years came from. Oh well, I guess.
I'm still here.
I shut down my PC for the night, but I'll get it to you tomorrow.
Okay, thank you for your help.
Charlie, I think the main key you're seeking here is to figure out if you have a solid chance in the near future. That may take the $5K investment (or less, if you can find someone else without having to shell out thousands on top of that for flying across the country to make a visit to someone else, thinking you're saving money). I also think this: If you know that your suicidal ideation is documented as such by your psychiatrist/therapist etc., and if you can verify that you will not be allowed to fly 3rd Class until 10 years after the time of said documentation, then you might as well save your money and wait 6 years and fly light sport for the time being. Otherwise, it sounds like you'll have a denial coming after your deferral, in which case you would then lose your privilege of light sport. The good news is this. If you get denied, you can at least keep flying with an instructor, and if you make friends with a cool one, he may even discount his instructor rates. I've heard of some instructors even offering free instruction time so they can get their hours and you can get your flying time. Either way, just think long and hard about shelling out $5K when it sounds likely that you'd have a denial coming afterward despite the money spent. Last, I am accepting a denial because I simply am not fit to go through all this to get the 3rd class, given issues with restricted meds I've taken over some years, plus other things with background. Picking up a letter tomorrow at post office that either will say do all this stuff (which will equate to spending thousands and thousands that I don't want to spend, and WON'T spend), or it will simply say that I'm denied. Looking back, I wish I had thought about light-sport more seriously. But still, when you break things down, if you're really not going to spend a lot of money to rent a plane to take trips, etc., (perhaps spending $5K to $10K at least per year for flying) or if you're not going to buy a plane (minimum $30K for a plane, then thousands for storage plus thousands more in maintenance and fuel for flying each year), then flying with an instructor is best anyway, really. I know it's tricky though. Man, how much would I love to buy a dinky little 152 and rack up hours flying around. Still, remember, thousands of dollars man.
There are 121 pilots flying who have had suicidal ideation. Since they were admitted alcoholics, only took a year to get them flying.
Quite a few actually.
I did a neuropsychologist eval. They said I didn't have ADHD, but that I had mild AUD because I checked one box too many. She didn't even talk to me about it. Also, I drank on more days than usual during the 2-month lockdown and told my PCP, who wrote down "alcohol abuse" without a diagnosis. Maybe that's how I could go about it. Dr. Chien has said the FAA looks for alcohol use when they see depression and anxiety in a medical record.
anyone who intentionally renders content unuseable for the next person because of some petty need - I just dont think is worth anyones time and contribution. These forums are essentially repositories of information for the next person as well, but since you removed all your posts to render that useless - why would anyone else want to even spend any more of their time to help you . . . Such a waste. . Good luck with your journey.
…I didn’t know that…it is my medical record…and there are still quotes posted that I am not requesting to be removed. Is there a rule posted on the forums somewhere about this?
It happens sometimes, and I don't see anything against it in the Rules of Conduct.
If you're concerned about the quotes, you could see if a moderator would be willing to change your user name to something anomymous.
Not that it will matter much. By now the FAA lurkers have read the posts and likely saved them for future reference anyway.
Of course not. I welcome the kind and caring oversight of our benign federal masters.
(And if the FBI monitors Twitter, do you really think the FAA doesn’t monitor aviation forums?)
Doesn't the NSA have copies of everything ever sent across the internet? Well that's the rumor ...
They used to... until a wor