ATC level downgrade

Velocity173

Velocity173

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Velocity173
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What's amazing is that here in Texas we have ADDED two new control towers since 2009 -- San Marcos and Georgetown. I'm here to tell ya, I've landed at both airports multiple times, and have never seen more than one other plane in the pattern. To say those towers are superfluous is an understatement.

Meanwhile, in other parts of America, airports are downgrading ATC towers -- and rightfully so. With GA a shadow of its former self, and the population shifting away from the East, it only makes sense to downsize a bunch of these once-busy airports.

WRT to Texas, my only guess is that we are flush with money, and some local politicians just bought themselves a whole slew of votes.
 
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There should be a lot of mandatory controller retirements over the next several years as the Reagan hires reach retirement.
 
Jay Honeck said:
What's amazing is that here in Texas we have ADDED two new control towers since 2009 -- San Marcos and Victoria. I'm here to tell ya, I've landed at both airports multiple times, and have never seen more than one other plane in the pattern. To say those towers are superfluous is an understatement.

Meanwhile, in other parts of America, airports are downgrading ATC towers -- and rightfully so. With GA a shadow of its former self, and the population shifting away from the East, it only makes sense to downsize a bunch of these once-busy airports.

WRT to Texas, my only guess is that we are flush with money, and some local politicians just bought themselves a whole slew of votes.
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Yeah I heard Lubbock and Amarillo both got downgraded to a level 6 and Midland downgraded to a level 7. Guess GA reduction is out pacing any increases of the regional airlines at these airports. I think corporate is staying steady but us little guys just aren't flying as much.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah I heard Lubbock and Amarillo both got downgraded to a level 6 and Midland downgraded to a level 7. Guess GA reduction is out pacing any increases of the regional airlines at these airports. I think corporate is staying steady but us little guys just aren't flying as much.
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Yeah, even Mary and I are flying less, for many reasons. Cost is certainly one of them. When it costs almost $500 to top the tanks in a Cherokee like ours, it makes you think twice before launching for no good reason.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
LDJones said:
There should be a lot of mandatory controller retirements over the next several years as the Reagan hires reach retirement.
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Is it still mandatory at age 56?
They'll retire then, or when they get the number of years eligible to retire, 20?
Or when they can no longer pass the physical.
Which ever occurs first, if they can afford to retire at 20.

With the decreased traffic counts in some areas, they'll hang on past 20. A forced move to fill a busier facility with manning shortages and I'm guessing they will bail.

Pre Regan statistics, 5% of the work force made it to a 20 yr retirement. Others were medically retired or died on the job. In 1980-1981 the FAA started denying early medical retirements.

No medical, no work, no pension. You've got 17 years in the ATC game with hypertension (high BP) from work stress and can't pass the medical. FAA says no medical retirement, which they had been granting pre 1980. Any wonder the work force walked in August 1981?
 
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BillTIZ said:
Is it still mandatory at age 56?
They'll retire then, or when they get the number of years eligible to retire, 20?
Or when they can no longer pass the physical.
Which ever occurs first, if they can afford to retire at 20.

With the decreased traffic counts in some areas, they'll hang on past 20. A forced move to fill a busier facility with manning shortages and I'm guessing they will bail.

Pre Regan statistics, 5% of the work force made it to a 20 yr retirement. Others were medically retired or died on the job. In 1981-1982 the FAA started denying early medical retirements.

No medical, no work, no pension. You've got 17 years in the ATC game with hypertension (high BP) from work stress and can't pass the medical. FAA says no medical retirement, which they had been granting pre 1980. Any wonder the work force walked in August 1982?
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Pfft. Our island is overrun with "retired" air traffic controllers. They're all my age -- or younger. What a crock of crap!

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Jay Honeck said:
Pfft. Our island is overrun with "retired" air traffic controllers. They're all my age -- or younger. What a crock of crap!

Sent from my Nexus 7
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Have a hard time feeling bad for someone who starts their complaint with the phrase "our island" :)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yeah, even Mary and I are flying less, for many reasons. Cost is certainly one of them. When it costs almost $500 to top the tanks in a Cherokee like ours, it makes you think twice before launching for no good reason.
Sent from my Nexus 7
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ack!!!!

The flight is the reason. The flying.

No good reason...<mumble> sheesh
 
I think we all try best we can to fly when we can. I don't know what the cost to fly and maintain a plane in the 80's and 90's were but in California with the cost of living continuing to rise and wages being frozen throughout businesses state wide it makes it hard to get in the air sometimes. Especially with gas at almost $6 a gallon, it makes even the most economical single-engine hard to afford to fly. Not to mention going in for that annual and having to leave behind a $10-15,000 check just to be able to fly another year. When simple things like hoses and spark plugs and lines can run you $10,000 for what seems like $75 in parts it's outrageous. It really sucks the fun and enjoyment out of flying for a lot of folks and they either end up quitting or just selling. It shouldn't take a millionaire to own a plane but it sure seems like it's getting there.
 
gtmule said:
Have a hard time feeling bad for someone who starts their complaint with the phrase "our island" :)
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Don't feel bad for me -- I'm in paradise. Feel bad for yourself, since you are paying for the lavish retirement of all these young former federal workers.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Jay Honeck said:
Don't feel bad for me -- I'm in paradise. Feel bad for yourself, since you are paying for the lavish retirement of all these young former federal workers.
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I probably could have been one of them, but I don't feel bad about it. You live with your choices you made a long time ago.
 
Jay Honeck said:
What's amazing is that here in Texas we have ADDED two new control towers since 2009 -- San Marcos and Georgetown. I'm here to tell ya, I've landed at both airports multiple times, and have never seen more than one other plane in the pattern. To say those towers are superfluous is an understatement.

Meanwhile, in other parts of America, airports are downgrading ATC towers -- and rightfully so. With GA a shadow of its former self, and the population shifting away from the East, it only makes sense to downsize a bunch of these once-busy airports.

WRT to Texas, my only guess is that we are flush with money, and some local politicians just bought themselves a whole slew of votes.
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Don't know about San Marcos, but I'm quite glad GTU has a tower.

I'm based out of GTU, and frequently on weekends it would be almost impossible to take off with all the planes that are in the pattern.

Last Saturday morning we had three planes in front of us, and two behind us all waiting to take off.

-Dan
 
BillTIZ said:
Is it still mandatory at age 56?
They'll retire then, or when they get the number of years eligible to retire, 20?
Or when they can no longer pass the physical.
Which ever occurs first, if they can afford to retire at 20.

With the decreased traffic counts in some areas, they'll hang on past 20. A forced move to fill a busier facility with manning shortages and I'm guessing they will bail.

Pre Regan statistics, 5% of the work force made it to a 20 yr retirement. Others were medically retired or died on the job. In 1980-1981 the FAA started denying early medical retirements.

No medical, no work, no pension. You've got 17 years in the ATC game with hypertension (high BP) from work stress and can't pass the medical. FAA says no medical retirement, which they had been granting pre 1980. Any wonder the work force walked in August 1981?
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As a controller fired in 1981.....thank you. You get it. By contrast to the FAA the Canadian controllers were treated extremely well, with respect and a genuine concern for their health and welfare. I know because I worked in that system for seven years following the strike. Most recently (the Bush era), the mission of the FAA seemed to be to make the job so miserable so that anybody who could retire would so that they could hire in cheaper newbies. Where I worked we had 20+ controllers out of 50 do just that. Mission accomplished.
 
Remember that new towers bring new Ultralight Exclusion Zones with them (known as "controlled airspace").

BTW, ABQ was downgraded too. The main reason was that the fighters departed for Holloman. Now students in LSAs make touch-and-goes on a 13,000 ft long runway and fly a closed pattern over the university together with a random C-130.
 
Pa28-140 said:
As a controller fired in 1981.....thank you. You get it. By contrast to the FAA the Canadian controllers were treated extremely well, with respect and a genuine concern for their health and welfare. I know because I worked in that system for seven years following the strike. Most recently (the Bush era), the mission of the FAA seemed to be to make the job so miserable so that anybody who could retire would so that they could hire in cheaper newbies. Where I worked we had 20+ controllers out of 50 do just that. Mission accomplished.
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That gets us to another subject. The quality of controllers these days with a lot of the experienced guys gone.

I've heard from the older guys of a general lack of attention to detail with the newbies. My brother describes the new ATC system as a kindler gentler ATC. They've done away with the old 3 operational error strikes and you're out because of the record number of errors. People were also hiding their errors to avoid punishment. Now you can commit errors freely with no backlash. He's seen people commit errors and just laughing it off later.

With the new " no opposite direction departures" it's just creating a more inefficient, wasteful system. As my brother said it's just dumbing down ATC so a controller doesn't have to think or use any sequencing skill. Also you have all the ATC college school people being hired by the FAA when they could be choosing from a large pool of qualified experienced military candidates. When I was in the military doing ATC it had one of the highest washout rates in an MOS. Only about half the original people in my class graduated. We always had the threat of being "fired" if we didn't cut it. Now it seems a lot of controllers are just being forced through the system.

So basically I'm really not impressed with the new ATC breed. Seems like there aren't many that know their job and can work heavy traffic safely. NexGen might be on the way but it still won't alieve a controller's requirement to sequence and separate traffic.

Also if the cutbacks come like predicted, then they need to start from the top first. There are plenty of staff ATC spots where guys just sit around doing nothing and get minimum time on position. I've read some of the senior spots didn't even exist years ago. They were made up so someone could have a job. Get rid of those guys and keep the controllers "in the trenches" that work the real traffic.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Get rid of those guys and keep the controllers "in the trenches" that work the real traffic.
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It never works that way, give it up. It's like every time there's a budget squeeze, the monstrous bureaucratic superstructure keeps essential functions hostage, and says raise the taxes or firefighters and cops get it. How many times you head "vote for this bond for TEACHERS"? I came to think that the only way to starve the beast is to starve it TO DEATH. Otherwise it just doesn't work. "Those guys" always feed themselves first.
 
Velocity173 said:
That gets us to another subject. The quality of controllers these days with a lot of the experienced guys gone.
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That's because there was a big bubble of controllers hired in the mid-1980s after the strike who have retired in the past few years.
 
dweyant said:
Don't know about San Marcos, but I'm quite glad GTU has a tower.

I'm based out of GTU, and frequently on weekends it would be almost impossible to take off with all the planes that are in the pattern.

Last Saturday morning we had three planes in front of us, and two behind us all waiting to take off.

-Dan
Click to expand...

Well, there you have it. Obviously the numbers merited the tower's expense to someone. I've just never landed there on a Saturday morning.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
zaitcev said:
It never works that way, give it up. It's like every time there's a budget squeeze, the monstrous bureaucratic superstructure keeps essential functions hostage, and says raise the taxes or firefighters and cops get it. How many times you head "vote for this bond for TEACHERS"? I came to think that the only way to starve the beast is to starve it TO DEATH. Otherwise it just doesn't work. "Those guys" always feed themselves first.
Click to expand...

How come so few people understand this phenomenon?

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Velocity173 said:
That gets us to another subject. The quality of controllers these days with a lot of the experienced guys gone.

I've heard from the older guys of a general lack of attention to detail with the newbies. My brother describes the new ATC system as a kindler gentler ATC. They've done away with the old 3 operational error strikes and you're out because of the record number of errors. People were also hiding their errors to avoid punishment. Now you can commit errors freely with no backlash. He's seen people commit errors and just laughing it off later.

With the new " no opposite direction departures" it's just creating a more inefficient, wasteful system. As my brother said it's just dumbing down ATC so a controller doesn't have to think or use any sequencing skill. Also you have all the ATC college school people being hired by the FAA when they could be choosing from a large pool of qualified experienced military candidates. When I was in the military doing ATC it had one of the highest washout rates in an MOS. Only about half the original people in my class graduated. We always had the threat of being "fired" if we didn't cut it. Now it seems a lot of controllers are just being forced through the system.

So basically I'm really not impressed with the new ATC breed. Seems like there aren't many that know their job and can work heavy traffic safely. NexGen might be on the way but it still won't alieve a controller's requirement to sequence and separate traffic.

Also if the cutbacks come like predicted, then they need to start from the top first. There are plenty of staff ATC spots where guys just sit around doing nothing and get minimum time on position. I've read some of the senior spots didn't even exist years ago. They were made up so someone could have a job. Get rid of those guys and keep the controllers "in the trenches" that work the real traffic.
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I agree with every word that you wrote. :wink2:
 
Looks like I joined this board at the right time. I'm one of those Bonzo-era ATC's that is also considered an old-timer. Spent my first 10 years at a tower/TRACON & VFR tower. The last 12+ years, I've been at Washington Center. There's some truth to what's been said.

And I do agree with the statement above that we live with the decisions we make. We are compensated like we are and enjoy an early retirement because of the toll it takes on our bodies. I've worked shift work my entire working career which includes 8 years in a machine shop prior to joining the ATC ranks. I won't know what a circadian rhythm is until I retire and spend 6 months away from the boards.

Most of those retired controllers earned it. Sorry that one of you feel PO'd because some of them are younger than you. Nobody handed them anything.

I just got on this board today so I don't know if there are any other ATC's here. I'd like to think there are. If not, should you have any questions about my side of the microphone, please feel free to ask. Feel free to insult my and my paycheck too. I can take it. Just remember, I can lob a few back too.

Wojo
 
The silent majority is glad you guys and gals are there behind the mic. And yeah, there's some other ATC folk here. (not I)
 
denverpilot said:
The silent majority is glad you guys and gals are there behind the mic. And yeah, there's some other ATC folk here. (not I)
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Everyone is glad the guys and gals of ATC are there.

Few are glad that they are paid $77/hour and "retire" as youngsters in their late 40s/early 50s, on our dime because of the "toll on their bodies". In an era where 70 is the new 60, and we routinely live into our late 80s, that is a patently absurd government contract with the American taxpayer that needs to be adjusted.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
I will never criticize ATC. I am relatively new pilot at ~340 hours mostly x-country. Those guys have been great. Probably the only real safety-related mistake in my career was picking up lite icing near Oxford and being vectored in by an ATC guy who clearly was interested in my well-being. I remember another time coming into Jacksonville international and when I didn't immediately spot the airport in the rain at night, he lit it up high intensity. That was amazing coming in on a single piston to a lit up major international airport. So many more stories of great ATC...
 
milestogo said:
I will never criticize ATC. I am relatively new pilot at ~340 hours mostly x-country. Those guys have been great. Probably the only real safety-related mistake in my career was picking up lite icing near Oxford and being vectored in by an ATC guy who clearly was interested in my well-being. I remember another time coming into Jacksonville international and when I didn't immediately spot the airport in the rain at night, he lit it up high intensity. That was amazing coming in on a single piston to a lit up major international airport. So many more stories of great ATC...
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Yep, great folks, mostly. Never met a bad one yet.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
I'm one of the LSA drivers Pete Zaitcev mentioned in his earlier comment. I've done several touch-and-goes at ABQ; it's a nice resource to have nearby and, as a relatively low-time pilot, each of those flights has been a learning experience for me. That said, only once have I been vectored around for other traffic; that's disconcerting. I'd much rather see more commercial and military flights using the airport, even if it meant being turned away in the Remos occasionally.

I started my flight training 10 years ago out of ABQ, and in my experience the airport has always been helpful and friendly to student traffic, now even more so. Tower controllers mentioned the recent downgrade at ABQ on a Rain Check tour I was on earlier this year. They basically did everything short of begging attendees outright to fly into ABQ and AEG. They specifically noted touch-and-goes help increase their traffic numbers, and also give the controllers some needed practice.
 
Wojo88 said:
Looks like I joined this board at the right time. I'm one of those Bonzo-era ATC's that is also considered an old-timer. Spent my first 10 years at a tower/TRACON & VFR tower. The last 12+ years, I've been at Washington Center. There's some truth to what's been said.

And I do agree with the statement above that we live with the decisions we make. We are compensated like we are and enjoy an early retirement because of the toll it takes on our bodies. I've worked shift work my entire working career which includes 8 years in a machine shop prior to joining the ATC ranks. I won't know what a circadian rhythm is until I retire and spend 6 months away from the boards.

Most of those retired controllers earned it. Sorry that one of you feel PO'd because some of them are younger than you. Nobody handed them anything.

I just got on this board today so I don't know if there are any other ATC's here. I'd like to think there are. If not, should you have any questions about my side of the microphone, please feel free to ask. Feel free to insult my and my paycheck too. I can take it. Just remember, I can lob a few back too.

Wojo
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Sorry for the long post, but but....

I would like to echo what Jay wrote a few replies up about the FAA retirement and pay. I'm also an Air Traffic Controller but I work for a private ATC company. I've had the privilege of working with some very good and friendly retired FAA controllers. Having said that, not all, but some of them were arrogant jerks when it came to working for a private ATC company as opposed to the cushy lifestyle they had at the FAA. I remember when my manager informed me that my company would start putting pilot feedback forms in the FBOs, were pilots could send the form to the local tower manager or mail directly to the company headquarters. That was a WTF moment for me, not because I was rude to pilots, but because it put me in check if I was to ever fowl up with a pilot in a disrespectful manner. Now maybe the FAA does this? Not sure, but I've never heard of it.

Private ATC companies depending on location and contract may or may not pay extra for things like training trainee controllers, nighttime pay, Sunday pay, etc like the FAA does. Private companies also only hire prior rated controllers. They don't age discriminate like the FAA (you can’t be hired by the feds if you're 31 or over). They pay a lot less, normally between $26-30 hr. with 401k, descent/to sometimes not so good healthcare coverage, with NO cozy lifetime federal retirement. Hell, I know guys making between 60k to 80K per year in retirement from the FAA!!! IMO, that's insane!!! Good for those guys/gals, but seriously with a mandatory FAA retirement age (for line controllers, not management) of 56 that’s a lot of payout over the years. Many FAA controllers will retire, take some time off, get bored, get hired with a private company only to realize this isn't the pampered FAA lifestyle anymore where they'd get 15-30 min breaks every 1.5hrs or less time on position with awesome break rooms with air hockey tables. (Overly dramatic for some facilities but you know you’ve seen it).

I recently read a DOT report (linked at the bottom) about how private ATC have less incidents and deficiencies than comparable FAA facilities. In this same report the FAA ATC union (NATCA) noted that these private companies still weren't as safe as the FAA because they only allow 30 days (average) for controllers to get certified. What's funny is private ATC companies won't hire controllers that are not previously certified at a prior airport/facility.

I've heard some horror stories from ex/ret. FAA controllers about bad, negligent controllers, messing up in position, only to have the NATCA union swoop in and save their arse! Just like many government jobs, once you get past you're probationary (13 months for FAA ATC) period, you’re pretty much ‘unfireable’. Sometimes the FAA would give the negligent controller 1-2 weeks of 'trauma time off' or whatever it's called. I know sometimes this 'trauma time' can be legit, but really? You certainly won’t see that with one of the private companies.

IMO, the FAA could contract out a lot of smaller up/down facilities and VFR towers, ex.....OKC, Wichita, Des Moines, COS, etc and leave the big boys like DFW, SFO, NYC, LAX, ORD to the FAA. Now will they? No, this is where NATCA also swoops in to save government jobs. Look at TSA, even they contracts out some of their security at airports and it works, while also being cost effective.

"NO, SAFETY FIRST", "We can’t let those private companies do it, they only give trainees 30 days of spin up time, no way they're really qualified". This is what the FAA and NATCA will scream. I understand the "big boys" can/should take longer to get certified, but some of the college and off the street hires take excessively long while getting paid sometimes more than contract controllers.

This is also when I hear FAA controllers or NATCA say something like "Yeah sure, but are you really going to get controllers to work at those places by paying them significantly less?" IMO, YES you will. There's many career contract controllers, (guys that are past the age limit for the FAA, many during the 90s Clinton era when the FAA wasn't hiring a lot) who would love a shot at places like those.

Wojo, I don't begrudge you for being an FAA Controller, hell I'm very jealous of you. As someone who's prior military and been waiting for several years to get into the FAA while still being under the age limit, these are the things I've seen over the years. But with our national deficit running up, these are the types of changes that I think need be seriously considered to help curb the debt. While it's not popular to say for the politicians....I think more privatization in general for many public sector jobs would help get our nations spending under control.



http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/5854

http://www.ainonline.com/comment/2255
 
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Interesting insights. I think that's the first posting I've ever read by a contract controller.
 
Wojo88 said:
Looks like I joined this board at the right time. I'm one of those Bonzo-era ATC's that is also considered an old-timer. Spent my first 10 years at a tower/TRACON & VFR tower. The last 12+ years, I've been at Washington Center. There's some truth to what's been said.

And I do agree with the statement above that we live with the decisions we make. We are compensated like we are and enjoy an early retirement because of the toll it takes on our bodies. I've worked shift work my entire working career which includes 8 years in a machine shop prior to joining the ATC ranks. I won't know what a circadian rhythm is until I retire and spend 6 months away from the boards.

Most of those retired controllers earned it. Sorry that one of you feel PO'd because some of them are younger than you. Nobody handed them anything.

I just got on this board today so I don't know if there are any other ATC's here. I'd like to think there are. If not, should you have any questions about my side of the microphone, please feel free to ask. Feel free to insult my and my paycheck too. I can take it. Just remember, I can lob a few back too.

Wojo
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You have company here. I spent some time in the trenches too. I was fired in the 1981 strike, worked in the Canadian system, rehired by the FAA, retired, taught at the Academy, and now work a very busy contract tower. There have been no free rides in my world. I know I'm biased but I think I earned my retirement and I think I am earning my wages now. Just letting you know that you have controller company here. Don't worry about the resident government basher here. He's an expert on everything. Just ask him. :yes:
 
I almost went the contract tower route. Getting out of the Marines in the late 90s wasn't a good time for FAA highering. I had an interview set up at LZU tower. Just so happens at the same time I got picked up in the Army and decided to fly for them. I probably would've made more as a controller and lived a better life, but I still wouldn't have changed a thing.

You can't compare ATC with most civilian jobs when it comes to retiring early. If you work at a busy facility it does wear on you. Just like after 3 deployments in the military and 20 yrs wore on me. ATC is a type of job that requires constant awarness, the ability to think fast and an uncanny ability to solve problems. I've always thought problem solving is the best way to descirbe ATC. You have a problem (traffic), and you need to fix it (separate & sequence). Not too many people as they age can still work the heavy stuff like they did when they were younger. That's why retiring so young (56) is necessary for most folks.
 
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ATC, 3-D chess, and the pieces don't sit still while you figure your next move.

BTDT
 
I fly almost exclusively IFR, i.e., in the system, and the most I can do in a day is four, maybe five hours before I need a major decompression (good beer). So the folks who do this every day on the other side of the mic, and let's face it, it's as every bit intense as it is in the air with the exception that someone else dies when there is a screw up, gets my vote for hero/heroine every day. As one who has squawked 7700 in real life I think I get it. Whether it's FAA or contract is immaterial to me and I consider them all as my true partners in the sky. Only controllers who are pilots can truly understand the wonder of this marvelous symbiosis that necessarily exists between our two communities. But even those controllers who do not fly themselves are deserving of our admiration and gratitude and from me, a mere GA pilot, they have it 110%. Being based within the DFW class B I spend a lot of time in the mix with the 121 operators and not once, in all the years I have flown around here have I ever felt that I was being handled any differently than any of the big iron. We're in this together and the way to save their jobs is for us in the GA community to aggressively promote GA in our daily lives. Doing so is a win-win for us all.
 
DrMack said:
.... Whether it's FAA or contract is immaterial to me and I consider them all as my true partners in the sky. Only controllers who are pilots can truly understand the wonder of this marvelous symbiosis that necessarily exists between our two communities....l.
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I have been flying for 30+ years and in all that time I can count on one hand the times controllers have been "less" then professional... The SLC crew are great and the local contract tower here in Jackson Hole ( SERCO) are hands down the BEST batch of guys/gals I have ever worked with...

For the controllers who were fired by Reagan, I might remind you... You took an oath to not strike.. If ya didn't like the terms you should have not taken the job.:mad::confused:
 
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