TFRs - warnings, repercussions.

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Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jul 4, 2012
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496
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Ames, IA
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david
Yesterday, I got two emails from the FAAsafety people about TFRs in the area. One of those was for a TFR that happened earlier in the week. Not so helpful, but i appreciate the thought.

This morning, they sent me 5 more emails about local TFRs. Two of those were for stadium TFRs. Just a list of which days games were scheduled, but I think that's more than I've received in the past, so that's nice.

The FBO tells me they caught at least 6 people during the bus tour TFR the other week. What actually happens to people who get caught violating a TFR? Can you get out of penalties with a ASRS report?
 
90 day suspension courtesy of secret service. i dont think ASRS helps but it can't hurt.
 
tonycondon said:
90 day suspension courtesy of secret service. i dont think ASRS helps but it can't hurt.
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Well that sucks. It also sounds specific to VIP TFRs. Is the penalty less if they manage to catch you busting a stadium TFR?
 
The degree of punishment depends on the circumstances. If you didn't check before flight, and just blasted through one you would have known about had you checked, you'll be in a lot more trouble than if you just fouled up your navigation and accidentally blundered in while trying to avoid it. To my knowledge, punishments have ranged from a 21-day suspension to (in an extreme case) emergency revocation, with 30-60 day suspensions seeming the norm.

Generally speaking, an ASRS report will not obtain waiver of sanction because most TFR violations are not "inadvertent and not deliberate." For example, choosing not to obtain a briefing before flight is a deliberate act, and "intent follows the bullet," or in this case, deliberateness follow the airplane. Likewise, choosing to attempt flight very close to the edge is a deliberate act, and that deliberate choice to shave the margin for error too close also negates waiver of sanction.

Of course, under the right circumstances, it's possible you may be able to get waiver of sanction (but not keeping the violation off your record or having to check "yes" for the rest of your flying days), so go ahead and file it, but this is one case where an ounce of prevention is worth a ton and a half of cure.
 
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my understanding is they have more flexibility for stadium TFR's since the secret service isn't involved. Not sure how its been lately but back when I was flying Ames during the first few years of Stadium TFR's they were busting at least one person per Saturday in the fall. Both Ames and Iowa City airports are within 3 miles of the football field.
 
Truly, how hard is it to get a briefing and understand it? Guys who do this SHOULD lose their license for 90 days . . . how stupid is it?
 
i don't believe that any briefing will tell you about stadium TFR's. Do you fly with a list of all NCAA Division 1 football team stadium locations in your flight bag?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
My briefers tell me about stadium TFR's.
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It sounds as if you might be lucky enough to be talking to local briefers who know the local game schedules. Most of us, when we call FSS, get someone half a continent away.

Unless something has changed recently, no NOTAMs are issued for specific stadium TFRs, so Lockmart folks wouldn't have that info at their fingertips.
 
It been a few years (Bush era) since the president visited here. But talking with our FSDO inspector afterwards they were only able to initiate enforcement action on one of the 6 pilots that penetrated the TFR since the secret service would not release enough details about what happened for them to create a case against the pilots.

I believe the rest just got a warning letter from the FAA.

Secret Service and the FAA may be playing together better now.

Brian
 
If the new version of Foreflight can warn against a runway incursion, I wonder how hard it would be to pop up a stadium TFR warning based on the briefing it generates when you file a flight plan. Also does anyone know if the G1000 with XM has stadium TFRs on the MFD? I know it has the VIP ones and the forest fire ones.
 
azure said:
It sounds as if you might be lucky enough to be talking to local briefers who know the local game schedules. Most of us, when we call FSS, get someone half a continent away.

Unless something has changed recently, no NOTAMs are issued for specific stadium TFRs, so Lockmart folks wouldn't have that info at their fingertips.
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Maybe I am lucky, maybe they are local pilots, but I didn't mean they have the game schedules. I meant if I get a briefing for a "Bay Tour" where you might go to sight see the stadium in San Francisco, they will mention the TFR's and know the boundaries (how many feet above the stadium, how many miles across). When I am flying, however, over the radio the ATC guys normally tell me to stay out of the Charlie area, which is where the stadium is. The other "stadium" on the sectional is Kezar (high school) football stadium in Golden Gate Park. It is the only marked stadium on the TAC or the Sectional.

Come to think about it, that is silly, since many high schools and colleges in SF have stadiums. Seems odd they called that one "stadium". Maybe it is the polo fields, where they have a lot of events.
 
Wingsofglass said:
If the new version of Foreflight can warn against a runway incursion, I wonder how hard it would be to pop up a stadium TFR warning based on the briefing it generates when you file a flight plan. Also does anyone know if the G1000 with XM has stadium TFRs on the MFD? I know it has the VIP ones and the forest fire ones.
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Not sure since sports / schedules / etc are subject to change especially when you get to things like the World Series or championships that depend on whether a team loses or wins during the year.
 
brcase said:
It been a few years (Bush era) since the president visited here. But talking with our FSDO inspector afterwards they were only able to initiate enforcement action on one of the 6 pilots that penetrated the TFR since the secret service would not release enough details about what happened for them to create a case against the pilots.

I believe the rest just got a warning letter from the FAA.

Secret Service and the FAA may be playing together better now.

Brian
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You're lucky. We get presidential TFRs often and they spread so far as to affect airports that are nowhere near SFO.
 
Foreflight gives boo coo TFR's including presidental, fire, Beal AFB drone flying activity, etc... but I've never seen a stadium TFR on it.

Presumably, stadium TFR's are in "the system" or a briefer wouldn't know about them either, right?
 
comanchepilot said:
Truly, how hard is it to get a briefing and understand it? Guys who do this SHOULD lose their license for 90 days . . . how stupid is it?
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Lots of guys in my area (the middle of nowhere) get up in the morning, look at the sky, and decide to go flying from their farm strip or their fly-in community runway. Some have been doing this for 60+ years. Many aren't into politics and don't follow VIP movements. If the president were to land in Branson, no doubt some would be immediate criminals.

Some may call them stupid, lazy, or poor pilots and for some, those labels might all be appropriate. But for the group I describe above, I see their actions as completely natural for people living in a free society and I'm not sure why it would automatically warrant loosing their freedom to fly for 90 days.
 
What has happened, John, is they have continued to live in an era wherein we were free to move about the country, as the SWA ad cliche goes. They haven't yet realized that that is no longer the case.

Sigh.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Lots of guys in my area (the middle of nowhere) get up in the morning, look at the sky, and decide to go flying from their farm strip or their fly-in community runway. Some have been doing this for 60+ years. Many aren't into politics and don't follow VIP movements. If the president were to land in Branson, no doubt some would be immediate criminals.

Some may call them stupid, lazy, or poor pilots and for some, those labels might all be appropriate. But for the group I describe above, I see their actions as completely natural for people living in a free society and I'm not sure why it would automatically warrant loosing their freedom to fly for 90 days.
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Because we are living in a different world now, whether we like it or not. We, as pilots collectively, MUST do due diligence or we will all suffer consequences.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You're lucky. We get presidential TFRs often and they spread so far as to affect airports that are nowhere near SFO.
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I'm not complaining, I don't have any reason for him to come here.

Perhaps that is part of the reason for the FAA/Secret Service issue. Perhaps it is a lot easier for them to provide evidence of the incursion when it occurs in more populated/flat areas that have better public radar coverage. Perhaps in these remote areas they may not want to release how they actually detect it. I suspect it has something to do with an AWAC's but perhaps they don't want to release the details of how that works.

Brian
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Maybe I am lucky, maybe they are local pilots, but I didn't mean they have the game schedules. I meant if I get a briefing for a "Bay Tour" where you might go to sight see the stadium in San Francisco, they will mention the TFR's and know the boundaries (how many feet above the stadium, how many miles across). When I am flying, however, over the radio the ATC guys normally tell me to stay out of the Charlie area, which is where the stadium is. The other "stadium" on the sectional is Kezar (high school) football stadium in Golden Gate Park. It is the only marked stadium on the TAC or the Sectional.

Come to think about it, that is silly, since many high schools and colleges in SF have stadiums. Seems odd they called that one "stadium". Maybe it is the polo fields, where they have a lot of events.
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The restriction only applies certain sporting events (FDC 9/5151)

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...ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE WHERE EITHER A REGULAR OR POST SEASON MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE, OR NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL GAME IS OCCURRING. THIS NOTAM ALSO APPLIES TO NASCAR SPRINT CUP, INDY CAR, AND CHAMP SERIES RACES EXCLUDING QUALIFYING AND PRE-RACE EVENTS.
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Aztec Driver said:
Because we are living in a different world now, whether we like it or not. We, as pilots collectively, MUST do due diligence or we will all suffer consequences.
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Every significant advance of freedom was from defiance (Rosa Parks broke a law). While we certainly shouldn't encourage or condone intentionally violating a TFR or refusing to do a TFR check, we shouldn't be so quick to throw fellow pilots under the bus when they unintentionally violate bad law.
 
Ron Levy said:
Generally speaking, an ASRS report will not obtain waiver of sanction because most TFR violations are not "inadvertent and not deliberate." For example, choosing not to obtain a briefing before flight is a deliberate act, and "intent follows the bullet," or in this case, deliberateness follow the airplane. Likewise, choosing to attempt flight very close to the edge is a deliberate act, and that deliberate choice to shave the margin for error too close also negates waiver of sanction.
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Interesting. I had a somewhat different interpretation of "inadvertent and not deliberate". I guess it really isn't my interpretation that matters.

kimberlyanne546 said:
You're lucky. We get presidential TFRs often and they spread so far as to affect airports that are nowhere near SFO.
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Same here in Iowa. We seem to get more than our share of visits. When the president's in Des Moines, there's 9 or 10 public airports, and at least as many private ones, affected.
 
tonycondon said:
i don't believe that any briefing will tell you about stadium TFR's. Do you fly with a list of all NCAA Division 1 football team stadium locations in your flight bag?
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That's my experience too - nobody tells you about them ( except maybe local aviation mailing lists ), there is no central place to go to, yet you are responsible for not violating them.

I wonder whether the brand-new pilots bill of rights is going to change anything here...
 
Every significant advance of freedom was from defiance (Rosa Parks broke a law). While we certainly shouldn't encourage or condone intentionally violating a TFR or refusing to do a TFR check, we shouldn't be so quick to throw fellow pilots under the bus when they unintentionally violate bad law.
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You got that right, John. This TFR stuff is a little on the ridiculous side. The law is Bad, with a capital B.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Every significant advance of freedom was from defiance (Rosa Parks broke a law). While we certainly shouldn't encourage or condone intentionally violating a TFR or refusing to do a TFR check, we shouldn't be so quick to throw fellow pilots under the bus when they unintentionally violate bad law.
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What does defiance have to do with an unintentional violation?
 
Even the FAA at their own web site, TFR.FAA.GOV , will tell you that their listings and data may not be correct or complete.

And you will not find stadiums or NASCAR Speedway TFRs listed. I was coming back into town one NASCAR Sunday, and the local ATC TRACON could not tell me if the race was over and if the TFR had been lifted.
 
tonycondon said:
i don't believe that any briefing will tell you about stadium TFR's. Do you fly with a list of all NCAA Division 1 football team stadium locations in your flight bag?
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I'm kind of thinking if I'm paying attention I will see a stadium with 70,000 people in it . . . if I'm VFR. And if I'm IFR its not my problem.

I kind of pay attention to that kind of stuff . . .you know, which cities have college football, pro football, baseball, NASCAR etc. . . looking on a sectional before I go flying places under the "never let your arse go any place your mind has not been" theory of CYA.
 
So is it true that there really is no single source for an accurate and complete listing of all current TFRs in the US?
 
Here is what I did because I am not a sports fan.

Go to this familiar site:

http://m.aopa.org/whatsnew/stadiums.html

Print the entire list. Sit down with your I-pad or I-phone with Foreflight installed. Enter each gps coordinate as a user waypoint. On Foreflight they are alphabetical, so I start the name with 2 letter state abbrev, then city.

Then before a flight near larger cities, especially if I will be below 3000' agl, I check. Sometimes(40%) they are shown on sectionals.

I almost always get flight following and that may save me someday too. I don't count on it.

It is no wonder the pilot population is dwindling.
 
Around here , home of the tfr's, the standard is 60 days off for those with commercial tickets and 30 days for PP.

If you show up with a lawyer asking for the tapes and such the default offer is 47/17. YMMV.

It will be interesting to see how the pilot's bill of rights effects this.

Actually, the ASRS usually work fine, but you can only use it once, do file it.
 
kkoran said:
What does defiance have to do with an unintentional violation?
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Nothing, but if history shows it proper to support the intentional defiance of bad law, why should we be completely unsupportive of those that unintentionally violate bad law?
 
Air space restrictions are why I fly almost exclusively IFR.
 
DrMack said:
Air space restrictions are why I fly almost exclusively IFR.
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And way back, when I was going for the IFR ticket..............I decided that IFR just didn't go, where I wanted. It's far too restricted for the (go almost anywhere) mountain flying enviroment, that I prefer.

L.Adamson
 
The nice thing about Arkansas is that since Clinton left office most presidents or canadidates forget about us. So we get major TFRs maybe one every two years or so.

Regarding stadium TFRs, there're not enough in this state to worry about. Only three hold enough to meet the min limit. Fayetteville is to crazy during the game weekend to fly VFR into anyway. A-State is in the far northeast part of the state for me to worry about. The stadium in Little Rock only holds two NCAA games a year. The rest of the time it is used as a high school stadium for the local catholic school.

There're some benefits to living in a forgotten about and rural state. :D
 
Call flight service. Get a briefing. Specifically ask about TFRs.

If they fail to tell you about it, ASRS. They can still violate you. At which point (as much as it will cost), lawyer up and let it play out. You may still get a suspension, but I suspect it's much less likely.
 
jwriteclub said:
Call flight service. Get a briefing. Specifically ask about TFRs.

If they fail to tell you about it, ASRS. They can still violate you. At which point (as much as it will cost), lawyer up and let it play out. You may still get a suspension, but I suspect it's much less likely.
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If they fail to tell you about a TFR during your timely FSS briefing and you bust the TFR, the FAA may initiate an enforcement action, but it will never result in a finding of a violation if you obtain the record of that briefing. That's happened on several occasions, and the tapes of the briefing in which the briefer failed to mention the TFR were telling for the defense.
 
Next time POTUS is in town, I need to check if his TFR shows up in the standard online DUATS brief. I know it shows in ForeFlight.

Of course now that the RNC is over, Mitt and Paul get Secret Service coverage, and maybe small TFRs too.

The stadium and NASCAR TFRs do not show up.
 
Till today I was thinking it is pilot's fault if he busts TFR. Living in the Bay Area I developed a habit of getting DUATS every time I fly. It is easy and usually contains all TFRs. That was my experience till today. Today I took a couple of friends on a Bay tour. Got my DUATS briefing as usual and there were a dozen of fire TFRs and Disney Land for California. I took off Hayward and when I asked NorCal for turn west they asked me if I'm aware of stadium TFR at San Francisco. I was not so I told them. They suggested to stay north of Alcatraz. I heart this question come up on every initial exchange between bug smusher and NorCal. Some of the pilots were aware of it, some like me wasn't. When I come back to Hayward I run into my CFII and asked him if he is aware of TFR and he told me he called briefer and the briefer didn't mention it so he learned it the same way I did - from talking to NorCal.
So how does pilot suppose to know about stadium TFR? More then that - he told me there was a TFR over Oakland coliseum. I was on flight following and NorCal approved my transition over coliseum at 2500'. All of my flying is on flight following so I guess it will stay that way for a long time :) They basically saved my butt twice today (just in case anybody ever ask me why do I like NorCal folks)
 
Artiom said:
Till today I was thinking it is pilot's fault if he busts TFR. Living in the Bay Area I developed a habit of getting DUATS every time I fly. It is easy and usually contains all TFRs. That was my experience till today. Today I took a couple of friends on a Bay tour. Got my DUATS briefing as usual and there were a dozen of fire TFRs and Disney Land for California. I took off Hayward and when I asked NorCal for turn west they asked me if I'm aware of stadium TFR at San Francisco. I was not so I told them. They suggested to stay north of Alcatraz. I heart this question come up on every initial exchange between bug smusher and NorCal. Some of the pilots were aware of it, some like me wasn't. When I come back to Hayward I run into my CFII and asked him if he is aware of TFR and he told me he called briefer and the briefer didn't mention it so he learned it the same way I did - from talking to NorCal.
So how does pilot suppose to know about stadium TFR? More then that - he told me there was a TFR over Oakland coliseum. I was on flight following and NorCal approved my transition over coliseum at 2500'. All of my flying is on flight following so I guess it will stay that way for a long time :) They basically saved my butt twice today (just in case anybody ever ask me why do I like NorCal folks)
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Excellent justification for the Pilots Rights Act.
 
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