Pattern practice

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
Anyone have useful data on how much time can be saved by doing TnG vs Full Stop and taxi back?

My home drone doesn't permit TnG ops
 
In not allowed to do touch and go's without an instructor even though I have my PPL, either and have to do the full stop taxi back stuff. My average is 4 full stop taxi backs in 1.0 on the Hobbs vs 7 touch and go's during that same time. Hope this helps.
 
Ron Levy said:
At your home 'drome (W00), I wouldn't do them even if they were allowed -- too short and obstructed for my taste.
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Amen to that! Plus, you would miss out on the hilly rides on the taxiways--reminds me of a cart path on a mountain golf course. That is the oddest paved airport I have ever flown into.

Wells
 
I think it took me about 6-8 mins per circuit with stop and taxi back, checklist and ready to go. I'm wondering if going to another strip nearby would save Hobbs time for the same number of takeoffs and landings.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think it took me about 6-8 mins per circuit with stop and taxi back, checklist and ready to go. I'm wondering if going to another strip nearby would save Hobbs time for the same number of takeoffs and landings.
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If you're paying by Hobbs time the cost per landing will be higher with FSTB than TnG but not by a huge amount if you don't spend much time waiting at the hold short line. And even when the airport is busy, the difference might not be significant as that tends to stretch the pattern and therefor increase the time spent in the air.

If OTOH, you get charged by tach hours or better yet air time (some airplanes have a switch on the Hobbs that's triggered by airspeed) the airplane charges (but not the CFI time) will be less with FSTB. For that reason IMO the FBOs that charge primary students by Hobbs (a common practice unfortunately) are ripping them off a bit.

But unless you're trying to set a record for the number of landings performed per hour or prior to your PPL checkride, I think you'll actually benefit from the FSTB method in terms of the total cost of flight training. Taxiing back to the runway provides a convenient time to dissect the landing just performed and discuss what you might do differently on the next.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Anyone have useful data on how much time can be saved by doing TnG vs Full Stop and taxi back?
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I think that's going to vary based on what you're flying and where. Can't you just time how long it takes you to taxi back around? It costs you a little bit more than that every time around the pattern.

My home drone doesn't permit TnG ops
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Out of curiosity, who is imposing that limitation?
 
\__[Ô]__/;967985 said:
Out of curiosity, who is imposing that limitation?
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It's not in the A/FD so unless it's in a NOTAM it's not mandatory. Still, like Ron said there's not a lot of room for any problems on a T&G.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think it took me about 6-8 mins per circuit with stop and taxi back, checklist and ready to go. I'm wondering if going to another strip nearby would save Hobbs time for the same number of takeoffs and landings.
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To me that's significant. Especially if it were a busy airport and having to wait in line again. That's wasted fuel and wear and tear on brakes and tires.

A lot of CFIs don't like the T&G because it doesn't teach good checklist use and the chances of an accident are higher for a students having to clean up the plane and take-off again. That's fine and all but if I'm practicing my landings I'm concentrating on the flare and touchdown. To me the roll out after a FS isn't something that has to have emphasis on. I would think the more patterns you can get in an an alloted time would be the most beneficial? Does your airport not allow T&Gs for noise abatement purposes?
 
As a primary student, you have to learn to land.

The roll-out is part of the landing.

T&Gs are great for daytime currency (to a point), but they aren't so good for students.

This is even more of an issue for crosswind landings.

You are also doing quite a lot of things during the landing like reconfiguring flaps, that really should wait.

I have much less of an issue with stop'n'goes on (very) long runways, but that does mean you'll have less runway ahead of you on takeoff than you could have.
 
gismo said:
It's not in the A/FD so unless it's in a NOTAM it's not mandatory. Still, like Ron said there's not a lot of room for any problems on a T&G.
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Correct, but a visit will make it common sense not to do TnG
 
Jaybird180 said:
Correct, but a visit will make it common sense not to do TnG
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...and if a TnG isn't safe, a SnG is out of the question. As for flying somewhere else, I can't think of anywhere nearby W00 where the flying time back and forth would not take way more time than you'd save by doing TnG's versus FSTB's.
 
gismo said:
It's not in the A/FD so unless it's in a NOTAM it's not mandatory. Still, like Ron said there's not a lot of room for any problems on a T&G.
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May not be an FAA thing, but in many places it's best not to tick off the neighbors. (Or, apparently in this case, Di something stupid.)
 
Ron Levy said:
At your home 'drome (W00), I wouldn't do them even if they were allowed -- too short and obstructed for my taste.
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Curios why you say that. A T/G typically needs less runway than a regular takeoff since you are already close to flying speed. During my initial training we routinely did T/Gs on a 1800ft grass strip. Of course you don't wait very long with applying power after touch down. But like so many things if you practice it, it can be done safely.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Not enough runway.
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Ron Levy said:
Not at Freeway (W00) unless you're flying a helicopter.
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2400 feet, right? More than enough runway. Way more than enough. (At least if you are flying the right airplane. And I did look at the pictures of the airport.)

Not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea if the airplort manager has decided that T&G is a bad thing.
 
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gismo said:
If OTOH, you get charged by tach hours or better yet air time (some airplanes have a switch on the Hobbs that's triggered by airspeed) the airplane charges (but not the CFI time) will be less with FSTB.
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I've always been curious about this...I always thought Tach time meant as long as the engine is running, you're getting billed. Since the engine is still running the whole time weather you are doing touch and go's or full stops, how would that save you more money?
 
cleared4theoption said:
I've always been curious about this...I always thought Tach time meant as long as the engine is running, you're getting billed. Since the engine is still running the whole time weather you are doing touch and go's or full stops, how would that save you more money?
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Some aircraft have a mechanical recording tach that runs "slow" when the engine is running at less than some nominal speed - so 10 minutes of taxi time running closer to idle speed only adds 2 - 5 minutes to the recording tach.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
2400 feet, right? More than enough runway. Way more than enough. (At least if you are flying the right airplane. And I did look at the pictures of the airport.)

Not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea if the airplort manager has decided that T&G is a bad thing.
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That decision preceeded me, so I can't offer an intelligent answer. I was simply told 'no TnGs'. Perhaps I'll ask one of the old airport bums about it next available time...and it's 2420'.
 
Jaybird180 said:
That decision preceeded me, so I can't offer an intelligent answer. I was simply told 'no TnGs'. Perhaps I'll ask one of the old airport bums about it next available time
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I was under the impression that "No TnG at W00" was a rule of the group that owns the plane you fly, not the airport. There is no such rule published for W00 in the A/FD, although perhaps the folks responsible for such things figured that between the runway length and the obstructions, nobody would be brave enough to try it there.

...and it's 2420'.
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I don't think the extra 20 feet makes any significant difference in this discussion.
 
Way back, a long time ago, in a far off universe, my primary CFI instructed me that it's an airport rule.
 
I believed it on face value. He was also mumbling something about the SFRA at the time and I was drinking through a firehose.
 
Aha!

I just called. I was told that it's FLIGHT SCHOOL RULE and not an airport rule. Glad I got that clarified! But I still won't do it on a 30* flap landing
 
In not allowed to do touch and go's without an instructor even though I have my PPL, either and have to do the full stop taxi back stuff.
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You have a private pilot certificate and aren't allowed to do a touch and go landing without an instructor? Sounds ridiculous.

Preventing students from doing touch and go landings is ridiculous, but for someone who already has their private??
 
DouglasBader said:
You have a private pilot certificate and aren't allowed to do a touch and go landing without an instructor? Sounds ridiculous.
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Sounds like experience with renter pilots -- bad experience. Although a blanket ban on TnG's without an instructor aboard even for rated pilots is a new one on me, I know several operators who prohibit TnG's in retractable gear airplanes -- even with an instructor aboard. I remember a few years ago a flight school operator asking on the Grumman Gang if anyone had two Cougar props -- and also announcing there was an instructor opening on his staff.
 
Why would you want to save time? If the engine is running and you are taxiing for the purpose of flight, it's all loggable time (FAR 1.1 definition). I thought that finding excuses to log flight time was a major concern of most low-time pilots.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Why would you want to save time? If the engine is running and you are taxiing for the purpose of flight, it's all loggable time (FAR 1.1 definition). I thought that finding excuses to log flight time was a major concern of most low-time pilots.

Bob Gardner
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If I'm logging time, I want to get some real experience value out of it. I find it slothful sitting on the ground burning money.
 
Why would you want to save time? If the engine is running and you are taxiing for the purpose of flight, it's all loggable time (FAR 1.1 definition). I thought that finding excuses to log flight time was a major concern of most low-time pilots.
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Building hours doesn't equate to gaining experience, and one sitting on the ramp for an hour with the engine running hasn't done a lot to improve his or her proficiency or skills.

One might as well falsify the time and stick it in the logbook, for all the good it does.

Sounds like experience with renter pilots -- bad experience. Although a blanket ban on TnG's without an instructor aboard even for rated pilots is a new one on me, I know several operators who prohibit TnG's in retractable gear airplanes -- even with an instructor aboard.
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On a short airfield with obstacles, in an airplane of greater complexity, I can see a discouragement from performing touch and goes, but not a blanket restriction. Especially for a private pilot or higher.

As a check airman in a light twin like the turbo commander, for example, I would have the applicant or student do touch and go landings off of approaches, or in pattern work, but often I'd have pre-briefed my handling of flaps, etc. I would require the applicant to show me the touch and go, however, all on their own, as it's a routine maneuver and little more than a go-around with the wheels on the tarmac.
 
cleared4theoption said:
I've always been curious about this...I always thought Tach time meant as long as the engine is running, you're getting billed. Since the engine is still running the whole time weather you are doing touch and go's or full stops, how would that save you more money?
Click to expand...
There are variations but typically a mechanical tach records revolutions on the "hours" meter and there is always one RPM where tach hours are exactly equal to clock time. Generally that RPM will be at or near the RPM range recommended for cruise flight, on the Bonanza I used to own 2325 RPM was the magic number. But what ever that RPM is, the hours will accumulate at a rate equal to your actual RPM divided by the "clock time" RPM. In the aforementioned Bonanza, at 700 RPM the tach time runs about 70% slower than an accurate clock.

Hobbs meters usually run whenever the engine is turning at any RPM. Typically they are controlled by an oil pressure switch that's wired to the battery side of the master contactor so turning the master off in flight won't stop the meter. There is always a fuse or CB that powers the meter and some unscrupulous renters have been known to pull that fuse on some legs of their flights to save money and cheat the FBO.

Occasionally you'll find an airplane with a Hobbs meter controlled by an airspeed switch (only runs when you're going fast enough to fly) and a few retracts run the Hobbs only when the gear is up. On my airplane I wired the Hobbs so it runs when the "weight on wheel" (aka squat) switch indicates that the plane is airborne.
 
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