Bonanza picks up ice in SoCal - ATC recording

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Found this on LiveATC.net:

http://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

Not sure how to link it directly, but scroll down and click on the 'BE35 icing emergency with SoCal'.

What suprised me is how pro-active the controller was - even to the point of declaring an emergency FOR the pilot and finally talking him into just landing at ONT.

That controller may have saved the dude's life.
 
Wow, that was an excellent controller. Pitot plugged, ice on the wings, that could have ended badly.
 
Sounds like his STATIC port was iced over, if he lost airspeed AND VSI. Interesting he didn't mention altimeter issues. He said pitot heat was on. Wonder if he tried alternate static port (does the Bo have one that vents internal?). Good job by both.
 
I was wondering how long the entire event took, the tape provide is almost 6 mins, is it redacted? (seemed to be a lack of other traffic etc).
That would tell us how quickly this icing event occurred.

Also we hear him cleared to 11 but can't know how high he got....and it did not seem like the icing had stopped building til around 4. I was trying to get a feel for the vertical profile of this icing - in any case it did not seem like a 3000' change was quite enough in this case (ref the rule of thumb people often use).
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I was wondering how long the entire event took, the tape provide is almost 6 mins, is it redacted? (seemed to be a lack of other traffic etc).
That would tell us how quickly this icing event occurred.

Also we hear him cleared to 11 but can't know how high he got....and it did not seem like the icing had stopped building til around 4. I was trying to get a feel for the vertical profile of this icing - in any case it did not seem like a 3000' change was quite enough in this case (ref the rule of thumb people often use).
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It's hard to tell on the time - I suspect that it was edited/compressed (most of the 'interesting recordings' are.

My take-away was this - I could be wrong, but I think he flew into known icing. He had to know what the temp was and there was some definite precipitation in the area that the controller was trying to vector him around. I doubt that stuff just popped up un-predicted between the time he started up at HHR and got into it in the basin. He probably thought that he could punch through it and found he was almost dead wrong.

The ice stopped at 4k because he was clear of the clouds at that point.
 
I hope:

1) I don't ever find myself in that position
2) If I do, I have a controller that good
3) I have the sense to land at the nearest airport instead of trying to continue the flight
 
The most ( un-predicted) ice I have ever encountered was in a mountainous area, although I agree with above, this dude should have known his chances of making a scene in the system were in the very possible range.
 
Act, not react. It would have been nice to see more preemptive action by the pilot here. This shouldn't be ATCs problem (not to say that they shouldn't be accommodating).

Having had ice in Bonanzas quite a few times, I find the airframe to be very tolerable of quite a bit of ice. I once had a few inches of rime ice on the wings and flight characteristics were not affected at all - IAS was the same, control feel was the same, etc. If I hadn't looked outside (and of course noticed the OAT and heard about the Pireps for ice in the area), I wouldn't even have noticed.

Ice is not fun, but I'd much rather have it in a A36 than many other singles.
 
sba55 said:
Act, not react. It would have been nice to see more preemptive action by the pilot here. This shouldn't be ATCs problem (not to say that they shouldn't be accommodating).

Having had ice in Bonanzas quite a few times, I find the airframe to be very tolerable of quite a bit of ice. I once had a few inches of rime ice on the wings and flight characteristics were not affected at all - IAS was the same, control feel was the same, etc. If I hadn't looked outside (and of course noticed the OAT and heard about the Pireps for ice in the area), I wouldn't even have noticed.

Ice is not fun, but I'd much rather have it in a A36 than many other singles.
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A few inches thick and absolutely no noticeable difference? That I find incredibly difficult to believe.
 
I once knew a girl who drove on 2 flat tires and didn't know the difference.:rofl:
 
jesse said:
A few inches thick and absolutely no noticeable difference? That I find incredibly difficult to believe.
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As do I. But then again, we don't fly LearBarons. :D
 
I got into some icing twice yesterday, once on the way to Denver and again in the same system on the way back. There seemed to be icing between about 12,000 and FL180 where OAT was below freezing and down to about -15.
The reason I bring this up, is even in a FIKI plane, I sometimes see performance decline even with all the deice equipment going; depends on where the ice seems to accumulate, type of ice and how it accumulates. This wasn't any special kind of situation like freezing rain or SLDs, just a low system with tops in the low 20s, fairly stable where I penetrated and slow ice accumulation.

I've had times there was no visible ice on the plane where it slowed quite a bit for what I think was accumulation underneath. So, be careful. Yes a Bonanza will carry a lot of ice, but if you don't have a known out, you don't know how much more you may get before you get out.

Yesterday, climbing into the low flight levels where the OAT got below -20C did the trick and usually does unless there is some lifting action or it's a very large system with higher tops. With tops in the high teens to low 20s in many of these winter storms, I do well in tops with OAT at -20C or better. I still always want an out if things get worse.

Pretty helpless feeling to get ice on a bird with no de-ice systems. The ice just stays there until it sublimates off which can take forever unless you get to warmer air. Had that happen before I purchased this plane and didn't like it.

Best,

Dave
 
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A good synopsis, Dave. As I say, if you don't have the tools, don't try to play in it. Too much risk involved.
 
Only ice I ever want to see, is in the cooler.
 
sba55 said:
Act, not react. It would have been nice to see more preemptive action by the pilot here. This shouldn't be ATCs problem (not to say that they shouldn't be accommodating).

Having had ice in Bonanzas quite a few times, I find the airframe to be very tolerable of quite a bit of ice. I once had a few inches of rime ice on the wings and flight characteristics were not affected at all - IAS was the same, control feel was the same, etc. If I hadn't looked outside (and of course noticed the OAT and heard about the Pireps for ice in the area), I wouldn't even have noticed.

Ice is not fun, but I'd much rather have it in a A36 than many other singles.
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It is not the ice on the wings that will kill you, it is the ice on the tail sufaces. Ice actually collects faster on the narrower horizontal stabilizer adding weight and changing airflow. Two inches of ice on the wings means you are very lucky to be alive. You have no idea what the tail looked like.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?deskto...e.com/watch?v=w1c4-aDB4k8&v=w1c4-aDB4k8&gl=US
 
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Geico266 said:
It is not the ice on the wings that will kill you, it is the ice on the tail sufaces. Ice actually collects faster on the narrower horizontal stabilizer adding weight and changing airflow. Two inches of ice on the wings means you are very lucky to be alive. You have no idea what the tail looked like.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?deskto...e.com/watch?v=w1c4-aDB4k8&v=w1c4-aDB4k8&gl=US
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Both will kill you just fine. Ice on the wings can cause you to be unable to maintain altitude, even with maximum available power. Plus your stall speed goes up, so you have to maintain a faster speed to maintain control. Yep, you can die just fine either way.
 
Am I the only one that thinks the pilot should have taken control of the situation instead of the controller?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Both will kill you just fine. Ice on the wings can cause you to be unable to maintain altitude, even with maximum available power. Plus your stall speed goes up, so you have to maintain a faster speed to maintain control. Yep, you can die just fine either way.
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Certainly, but the point was ice on the tail collects faster causing pitching down. Watch the video.
 
Adodero said:
Am I the only one that thinks the pilot should have taken control of the situation instead of the controller?
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Yes, that was my point about how pro-active the controller was. This is not a criticism of the controller at all, like I said, that controller may have saved his life. But the pilot appeared to be letting the situation control him and not vice versa.
 
Fearless Tower said:
My take-away was this - I could be wrong, but I think he flew into known icing. He had to know what the temp was and there was some definite precipitation in the area that the controller was trying to vector him around. I doubt that stuff just popped up un-predicted between the time he started up at HHR and got into it in the basin.
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I figured I'd quote myself here as a correction to something I mentioned earlier - I had an interesting experience flying from San Diego to Prescott on Thanksgiving that made me rethink what I posted above.

There was an overcast cloud layer along the coast up to the mountains in SoCal on Thursday morning. No big deal I thought since temps aloft appeared to be sufficiently above freezing along the route until around 10K. I was flying a 210 and we entered the base around 5500. While in the soup, I heard a Bonanza telling SoCal he was picking up ice a bit further north of us. I then glanced at my OAT and it was about 30 degrees F (about 10 lower than it was forecasted to be) and there was light precip in the clouds! I continued the climb knowing that it would probably be above it before I descended out of it, but you better believe that the wings were part of my scan. Considering the temp, I was actually suprised that I never actually picked up any ice, but it was a definite reminder that things are not always as forecasted to be!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes, that was my point about how pro-active the controller was. This is not a criticism of the controller at all, like I said, that controller may have saved his life. But the pilot appeared to be letting the situation control him and not vice versa.
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Oh yea, definitely. I'm glad someone took charge, but I usually like to see pilots doing so rather than controllers. Definite props to the controller.
 
Geico266 said:
Certainly, but the point was ice on the tail collects faster causing pitching down. Watch the video.
Click to expand...

Your link didn't work for me, but if you're referring to the NASA video that usually gets posted this time of year, I've watched it several times. And I've watched ice accumulate faster on my tail surfaces than on my wings more than once.

This is why hand flying in ice is important - keep a feel for the plane and how it's responding to its new airfoil.
 
Why did he want to pick up an IFR clearance to hawthorne if he didnt have the required instruments for IFR flight?
Controller: Adviise ready to copy ifr clearance to hawthorne
pilot: let me finish this turn and ill advise ready to copy, but I still dont have ASI or VSI


WTF?
 
DavidWhite said:
Why did he want to pick up an IFR clearance to hawthorne if he didnt have the required instruments for IFR flight?
Controller: Adviise ready to copy ifr clearance to hawthorne
pilot: let me finish this turn and ill advise ready to copy, but I still dont have ASI or VSI


WTF?
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When he first asked for the clearance back to HHR, he had said that he was clear of the clouds and his ASI was working again. Then when the controller was ready to issue the clearance, he realized that the ASI and VSI were out again.
 
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