SPOT vs. 406 plb
- Thread starter dennyleeb
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Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Well right off the bat for me - NO FRIGGING SUBSCRIPTION ! Additionally when a PLB is activated the rescuers KNOW you are alive or at least were and I gotta think that makes them work a little harder knowing that in advance.
dennyleeb
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if the spot was activated it does send GPS cordinates and you would have to be alive to send it as well. Subscription 100% yes. However I already have the unit so which is cheaper new unit or another subscription? Just what I am looking at. Is there info that the spot does not work as well?
Mike I
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I was actually looking at both of these today, purely out of curiosity. I came across these REI reviews of the SPOT:
http://www.rei.com/product/784892/spot-ii-satellite-gps-messenger
Not positive at all, and doesn't instill much confidence in the device working when it really matters. I see you already have a SPOT... what are your personal thoughts on it?
When I'm in the market, I'm inclined to go right to a PLB, probably the ACR SarLink View. No subscriptions, obviously. Also, alert goes right to AFRCC, not to a corporation. Lastly, 406 PLB's have worldwide gapless coverage while the SPOT is limited to where GlobalStar's sat coverage is (see here: http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/images/spot_map.jpg ). Specifically, take a look at Alaska if you do any flying there.
Check out this vid comparing the two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTUQOWhyYAs
http://www.rei.com/product/784892/spot-ii-satellite-gps-messenger
Not positive at all, and doesn't instill much confidence in the device working when it really matters. I see you already have a SPOT... what are your personal thoughts on it?
When I'm in the market, I'm inclined to go right to a PLB, probably the ACR SarLink View. No subscriptions, obviously. Also, alert goes right to AFRCC, not to a corporation. Lastly, 406 PLB's have worldwide gapless coverage while the SPOT is limited to where GlobalStar's sat coverage is (see here: http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/images/spot_map.jpg ). Specifically, take a look at Alaska if you do any flying there.
Check out this vid comparing the two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTUQOWhyYAs
wabower
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I carry a 406, strobe. side-arm and small survival kit in a quick-don vest that I wear in the back-country or over water and carry on the seat back on all flights. I like the 406 because I can turn it on when I want (hopefully before ground contact) and give them some decent information regarding my whereabouts. I think the new units are a bit more compact, a feature I would enjoy.
alaskaflyer
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I have a SPOT for tracking and ok messages to my wife. Except for when my first unit stopped transmitting for some reason requiring warranty replacement, it works reasonably well, especially considering that the subscription price is much lower than the equivalent Iridium-based solution like the ones we use at work.
I have a PLB for an actual emergency for the reasons stated above.
So for me the answer is both. I'm not willing to put my life in the hands of a corporate call center. I KNOW when I press the PLB button that if I have a view of the sky someone is coming for me, and up here that is professional rescuers parachuting out of a HC-130 and/or responding by helicopter. SPOT? Well there have been highly successful activations, and ones not so much.
On the other hand, we responded to a SPOT "911" activation in a remote part of the park yesterday. I'm waiting on the results of the investigation to determine the length of time between when the button was pushed and we were notified. The hiker was ok but needed rescue. I'll post when I find out.
I have a PLB for an actual emergency for the reasons stated above.
So for me the answer is both. I'm not willing to put my life in the hands of a corporate call center. I KNOW when I press the PLB button that if I have a view of the sky someone is coming for me, and up here that is professional rescuers parachuting out of a HC-130 and/or responding by helicopter. SPOT? Well there have been highly successful activations, and ones not so much.
On the other hand, we responded to a SPOT "911" activation in a remote part of the park yesterday. I'm waiting on the results of the investigation to determine the length of time between when the button was pushed and we were notified. The hiker was ok but needed rescue. I'll post when I find out.
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dennyleeb
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Ok let me tell you a little more about my flying and what you think. I am pretty much always IFR so if I had a problem I would be able to tell ATC that I have a spot locator and 121.5 on my watch prior to ditching. Not to mention being on their screen most of the time. Would you think that is enough for flying over lake michigan or to bahamas?
Spot runs through a less than reliable private comsat system and is not monitored by any rescue service. The 406 beacon links to a dedicated (actually 2 dedicated systems that have combined resources) Search and Rescue system, COPASS/SARSAT so no matter where in the world you are, when it's activated, the international SAR system goes into action quickly. If you get a PLB with a GPS, they know you're in trouble and where you are in minutes. With no GPS it takes a bit longer to get on your position and it's not quite as accurate, but it still works.
Another device you could consider is a SART or Search And Rescue Transponder. This prodeces a series of 12 evenly spaced dots on a ships or boats 3cm radar. This also makes it much easier to find someone in rough seas.
Another device you could consider is a SART or Search And Rescue Transponder. This prodeces a series of 12 evenly spaced dots on a ships or boats 3cm radar. This also makes it much easier to find someone in rough seas.
Correct, the SPOT is a toy for your wife and friends to watch you. A 406 PLB has the worlds SAR system watch you.
If you don't want to spend money on a PLB, then don't, just don't try to justify it with "I'm just as safe with..." because you're not, not from outside of the fatalist POV. If you're a fatalist, then it irrelevant to have any safety gear.
Call 1-866-729-3760 or 954-522-6716, those are the numbers to Sailorman, ask for Dave. Tell him what you want. If he has one, it'll be cheaper than you can buy it anywhere else.
brcase
En-Route
I would be interested in the "Not so much" Stories.
I keep hearing about how the COPAS/SAR system is so much better and understand the reasons why, but haven't really seen any actual incidents where the SPOT failed, where the COPAS/SAR system would have done better.
The biggest problem I have seen with the SPOT is it getting lost in the accident so that it was difficult or impossible to manually activate it. The PLB would have the same problem.
I do know of two very successful aviation activation's here in Idaho.
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20090714X94013&ntsbno=WPR09LA343&akey=1
I have heard that the SPOT is not as reliable in the Northern latitudes, but the same person that told me that then told me about one being successfully activated when a Citabria Ground looped at a remote location.
Last week we had about 10 glider land out during a Soaring competition, The retrieves were much easier with the ones (including mine) that were Spot equipped (about 1/2 of them) as opposed to trying to relay coordinates over the radio.
My biggest selling point for the SPOT is that it gets used every flight, Road Trip, and Hike I do. A PLB/ELT I hope will just be dead weight as I hope I never have to use it. The Tracking feature means that even if it gets destroyed in the crash there is a good indication as to where to start looking for the crash. Also if there is a crash other than mine, my crew can easily check in on me to confirm it wasn't me.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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If the SPOT failed and they didn't have a PLB, there is a high likelyhood that you will never hear about it...
As far as activation, unless you have a landing or T/O accident, you should activate it on your way down.
A SPOT has it's uses, directing in SAR is not one I would rely on Global Star for.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
THIS. When I'm doing any "risky" stuff my PLB is strapped to me - it's always in my flight bag otherwise.
The SAR pros I know consistently praise the reliability of the 406 MHz ELTs and PLBs.
alaskaflyer
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Well like I said I use both. The breadcrumbs will be useful if I'm in an accident if I can't activate the emergency feature on either device.
On average mine misses one or two out of every six tracking check in attempts each hour while flying or hiking, and about every third OK message attempt never arrives. Will a 911 activation fare better? Won't bet my life.
The Spot relies on Globalstar which has poor coverage overall and worse in northern latitudes. It requires two way communication for most functions ( less certain about the 911 button. ) It adds an extra layer of reporting in an emergency. It requires the company to remain financially viable. And it does not transmit an audible analog distress signal on 121.5.
But it has those extra features.
There used to be a blog site dedicated to criticism of SPOT including failure stories. It appears to have been taken down or at least Google can't find it. Maybe they got a lawyer letter.
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Skip Miller
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alaskaflyer
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That thread reminds me that in defense of SPOT the second generation unit like mine does have a more sensitive and better quality GPS chipset than the original which was horrible. That being said even when I was flying in Nevada/Utah last month mine was not 100% successful at maintaining communication with either the GPS constellation, Globalstar, or both.
In a plane, any breadcrumb feature that uplinks at longer than 1 minute intervals is quite useless.
At a 160kts you are going 3.06 statute miles per minute. With a 3min uplink interval, you are looking at a search area of 266 square miles.
If you consider knowing what county you went down in is sufficient precision in your opinion, then the 10min uplink frequency of the spot (--> 2900 sq miles) may be sufficient. I have one, I consider it a toy. Maybe useful for hiking.
At a 160kts you are going 3.06 statute miles per minute. With a 3min uplink interval, you are looking at a search area of 266 square miles.
If you consider knowing what county you went down in is sufficient precision in your opinion, then the 10min uplink frequency of the spot (--> 2900 sq miles) may be sufficient. I have one, I consider it a toy. Maybe useful for hiking.
dennyleeb
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Wouldn't being on a IFR flight plan also help with location?
alaskaflyer
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On point-to-point flights even a ten minute reporting interval is very useful.
Toodling around flying where a whim takes you? Not so much, but it is still better than "useless."
In a radar environment probably more precise than the 30 mile raster of a 10min breadcrumb. In a non-radar environment, they just know when they talked to you last.
dennyleeb
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over lake michigan going to kosh, with a breitling 121.5 and a spot?
Not my first time but gonna buy plb either way just plan on buying one there unless don't think that is enough dont really trust the spot
How long do you reckon you'll be able to keep the Breitling above water for the cavalry to get a fix on you ?
Make sure it's a waterproof floaty one. A real epirb is probably a bit clumsy for the survival vest but you dont want a plb that gives up the ghost the moment it gets wet.
Get something like the SARLink GPS / AquaLink GPS. The money you save on the spot subscription will pay for it in a couple of years.
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I have not seen one that isn't.
One thing I wonder about with the PLBs, will they work while floating on a lanyard next to you ? The epirbs are designed to work that way, I dont know whether the PLBs will float 'antenna up' by themselves.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The original COSPAS/SARSAT satellites are out of fuel and in odd-ball orbits that don't work well for SAR anymore.
Before the 121.5 decommissioning we were getting requests from Langley AFB to "search the Front Range area".
"Lieutenant, could you please put the duty Sargeant on the phone? Sarge? Could you explain how big the Front Range is to the new Lieutenant and call us back after you've had a few more satellite passes and have a better location? Thanks." Click.
Is the new system actually called COSPAS/SARSAT? You made me Google. Yup.
http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/
It was my understanding that the 406 receivers are hitchhikers on some NRO birds and thus information about orbital timeframes, etc... is a little more FOUO than it used to be.
Without GPS data, the system has to take the Aquistion of Signal (AOS) and Loss of Signal (LOS) from more than one bird passing overhead (or the same bird on the next orbit) to get an area of interest and narrow it down. They usually also like to see a couple of extra confirmation passes to tighten it up.
Back in the 121.5 days, when those receivers were still active, the time that took was typically hours and the search area miles, just by the physics of VHF.
We might get a heads up call that they were working a signal in the area and to expect refinement of the area in about an hour or two.
If the sun was setting, it was rare to launch any Air SAR assets until daylight. Ground might get rolling but typically the radar tap data from FAA was consulted first to see if ATC had anything go missing. Takes a little while to get that.
406 gives better resolution in these "solutions" without GPS, due to the higher frequency but it still takes a while.
There's also a big problem in that a lot of people aren't *registering* their 406 beacons. Someone here in Colorado gave a PLB to a mountaineer as a present saying it was an avalanche beacon. He'd turn it on every time he went winter hiking and off when he was out of avalanche danger. It wasn't registered. If it was they could have had the Sheriff knock on his door the first night for a welfare check. The search for the on-again, off-again beacon went on for months, as I recall.
The GPS data nails you down to a spot (pun intended) if the satellite can hear the data bursts from the ELT.
Multiple ELTs in an area can really screw with the results, but usually the computers can figure it out. Digital filtering algorithms for $500, Alex. Since most are false alarms by a huge majority, even after the switch to 406, finding the false one's and turning them off is a pretty high priority.
When the false one is cruising at FL350, that's a very widespread problem that can affect finding the real one for -- a couple more hours, especially the contiuous sweep 121.5 ELTs. Thus, why the 406 devices don't transmit continuously. Harder to ground DF without hysteresis on your DF gear, but easier for the satellites.
In all, it's a pretty interesting group of systems. But it's not without some minor technical warts.
Very few ground SAR groups have upgraded to 406 DF gear that can read the data beacons. Too expensive, everyone's broke. Most are homing on the weak 121.5 signal that a 406 beacon transmits. It works but it's tedious with the old gear.
The other disadvantage to 406 is not many pilots know what the short 121.5 sweeps that come and go are. They're used to listening to the continuous sweep from an old-style 121.5 ELT. They wonder if they really heard it, or report it as an "intermittent ELT" which gets a lot less attention. There's some education going on in the SAR world that the "sound" of an active ELT on 121.5 has changed significantly.
A rare few expensive models transmit the tail number of the aircraft and the last good GPS lat/long in *voice* on 121.5. Those kick butt for ground teams, especially looking for a false alarm on an airport. The airport authority usually knows what hangar a particular N-number is in.
One of the TV News choppers here was the first time I heard that. Drove into the airport, first ground searcher on-scene and the ELT said, "November Four Tango Victor". I knew that was the old Channel 4 KCNC chopper and right where they parked it. Walked into the hangar and said, "I think the Channel 4 bird's ELT is running."
Mechanic walked over and deactivated it and found a faulty switch. Thanked me and I left. Fastest ELT search ever.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Side-note here:
406 ELTs that receive location data from an external source are required to receive an update every minute as a minimum from the external source.
Thus, those battery life times are a lot more important than in the old 121.5 ELTs if it's using it's own battery power for this interface.
Your typical aircraft 406 ELT with a (godawful expensive) serial cable to say, a Garmin, is technically "waking up" every minute or more to gather coordinates.
Most cabled systems thus, provide ship's power to that portion of the ELT...but *know* yours and it's battery change interval if it's using it's own power.
Additionally ELTs are required to "cold-start" the GPS if using an *internal* GPS to remove false location data.
Warm-starts aren't allowed on internal-GPS devices. So they don't start transmitting location data until the GPS says the data is accurate.
(Most folks are used to seeing this when they travel by air to somewhere away from home and fire up a consumer GPS, it takes a while to calculate where you are. The more birds it can hear, the faster it finds a solution.)
There are those who will say to activate the ELT in-flight if you're going down. Generally I agree, but...
Another built-in limitation is that once an ELT starts sending location data, it must not update the location that it's sending for a full five minutes. This gives enough repeats that they can be corrected if any of the data bits were corrupted.
Lots of possible arguments there -- and some room for big ambiguity if, let's say, the crash destroys the GPS antenna or more likely, destroys the antenna and crumples the ELT up inside a smashed tail section like a little Faraday cage.
But at least someone heard you squawk within 5 miles of where you ended up, worst case scenario. A lot of ground to cover.
If the GPS input fails, the ELT will use the last good position for 45 minutes, then clear the location bits in the encoded signal while still transmitting the rest of the packet, including the 15 character unique hexadecimal number printed on the outside of the ELT amongst other things.
If you fly in cold climates, Class 2 ELTs are only rated to operate correctly on-frequency down to -20C. Class 1 certified ELTs are certified down to -40C.
EPIRBs and PLBs have similar but different rules. EPIRBs that receive external GPS data on board a vessel, only are required to update that data every 20 minutes per the specification. I'd want one that went more often than that, but at 5-10 knots it's not as big of a deal.
PLBs also cold-start their internal GPS if so-equipped.
Just some more Geekery to mull over. These are minimum standards.
Look up your particular model's tech data or ask the manufacturer so you know its specific limitations.
gprellwitz
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A Spot will help the recovery mission. A 406 will help the rescue mission (if you keep it on your person).
gprellwitz
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The ACR MicroFix I have is waterproof, but not floaty without a neoprene sleeve.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Or body recovery...
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Aquafix I have doesn't float by itself, it comes with a foam rubber jacket/pouch that provides the necessary buoyancy. AFaIK, the pouch does not float the unit in the proper position for GPS reception or beacon transmission, I think it's only purpose in an emergency is to prevent the unit from sinking if you let go of it.
dennyleeb
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a little harsh I would say, if they were that bad they would have been sued out of business by now
Actually, if you survive the crash AND you have the spot accessible will work very much the same as a PLB. It will provide a GPS precise location and the distress message through the companies ops center rather than directly through SAR.
Some people seem to believe that the breadcrumb trail feature of the spot will help them to get found. I went to a NTSB meeting last month. They had a discussion about the merits of flight following systems in the setting of the Ted Stevens and the NM State police crash. In both, the presence or absence of such systems affected the SAR response.
The Ted Stevens plane HAD a sat tracker (neither spider nor spot, some professional iridium system), however the operator had discontinued the subscription as they found the system rather useless. It required the planes master switch to be left on for 10 minutes after landing in order for the tracker to send its 'landed' signal to base. After they ran the batteries dead a couple of times ( if they forgot to shut off the master after the 10min), they decided to cancel the subscription and to buy a satphone instead. The unit was still on board and functional when the accident happened, the last tracking point was miles and miles away over a lake rather than in the mountains where they crashed. The Beaver is not exactly a fast plane and the system had a 5min update frame, yet it was useless beyond the 'what county are we in' aspect of SAR. (the 406mhz ELT got ripped from its velcro mounting and was rendered inoperative)
In the NM state police crash, the native 406mhz ELT signal (no GPS) which was only received by the low-orbit satellites provided a .3x.3 mile search quadrant within 65minutes of the crash.
----> get a PLB, get a fishing vest, wear both.
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Mike I
Line Up and Wait
There's a new SPOT competitor that uses the Iridium network instead of Globalstar: http://blog.delorme.com/2011/06/03/delorme-inreach-two-way-satellite-communication/ . It will still share many of the drawbacks of SPOT (commercial RCC vs AFRCC, subscription) but reliability and coverage may be better as Iridium offers pole-to-pole coverage like 406 PLBs do.
While reading about this, I stumbled onto this on Iridium's site: http://www.iridium.com/ProductList.aspx?productCategoryID=11 . I hadn't known that there were so many tracking products available using Iridium. Could be an interesting option. Also, if a breadcrumb trail is what interests you in SPOT, perhaps something like the Spidertracks is more appropriate?
While reading about this, I stumbled onto this on Iridium's site: http://www.iridium.com/ProductList.aspx?productCategoryID=11 . I hadn't known that there were so many tracking products available using Iridium. Could be an interesting option. Also, if a breadcrumb trail is what interests you in SPOT, perhaps something like the Spidertracks is more appropriate?
ISUHawkeye
Pre-Flight
there have been some great posts here providing information on the COSPAS/SARSAT system. My question is who actually responds if I go down in the midwest, I'm injured and I can activate both devices. Its my understanding that SPOT activates the closest PSAP (911 center). How about SARSAT?
ISUHawkeye
Pre-Flight
OK I see how they are processed. Since each of these entities are basically dispatch centers how much delay is there in processing and who are the responders who actually come rescue me in each case. I ask because here in the midwest there are few federal resources for AFRCC to request assistance from.
Once the message gets out, if they get it. I have thrown Global Star equipment overboard, I do not trust that outfit with my life no way no how. As a toy tracker to have friends and stuff be able to watch, fine. As my survival tool? No. YMMV