CFI candidate lands with side loading

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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Hubby is finishing up his CFI training. He just cannot seem to land the airplane from the right seat without side loading. I've suggested he just get that right foot entirely off the rudder and make some landings with it tucked under the seat until he starts to get a new sight picture.

Any other (better) ideas?
 
It's not entirely clear, but it sounds like the problem is yaw, not lateral drift. In that case, it's a matter of getting the feet disconnected from the hands so the nose stays pointed in the direction the plane is going rather than staying coordinated with aileron input. I'd suggest some practice slow-flying down the runway with his instructor controller the yoke and Hubby working the rudders until he gets the picture, then combining the tasks. In any event, his CFI training won't be complete until he can not only do this, but also explain it and correct errors by trainees (real or simulated).
 
Ron Levy said:
It's not entirely clear, but it sounds like the problem is yaw, not lateral drift. In that case, it's a matter of getting the feet disconnected from the hands so the nose stays pointed in the direction the plane is going rather than staying coordinated with aileron input. I'd suggest some practice slow-flying down the runway with his instructor controller the yoke and Hubby working the rudders until he gets the picture, then combining the tasks. In any event, his CFI training won't be complete until he can not only do this, but also explain it and correct errors by trainees (real or simulated).
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Is that something I could help him with? (PPSEL) Or does it require his instructor in the left seat?
 
AuntPeggy said:
Hubby is finishing up his CFI training. He just cannot seem to land the airplane from the right seat without side loading. I've suggested he just get that right foot entirely off the rudder and make some landings with it tucked under the seat until he starts to get a new sight picture.

Any other (better) ideas?
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Quit looking at the damned centerline, look at the end of the runway.
 
Ron Levy said:
In any event, his CFI training won't be complete until he can not only do this, but also explain it and correct errors by trainees (real or simulated).
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He is at that point in his training where they sat down at the last lesson and Hubby's instructor said, "These are the three things that you need done before you're signed off for a checkride." So he knows.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Wow. That is a problem he had at the very start of pilot training. Is it back again?
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Yep, he's fallen back to an old habit, it's always an obvious one. Taildraggers with round engines cure one of that permanently.
 
Henning said:
Quit looking at the damned centerline, look at the end of the runway.
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Might also help to alternate looking alternately at the near end then the far end on final. Fixating on any one thing is never good. My Waco has taught me to never look at the side. Peripheral vision really is enough. Of course I can't see the centerline.

Ernie
 
For me the trick was to land with the center line between my legs (like you do in most round engine taildraggers). Once I got the yaw picture (by looking far enough down the runway) I could move it to between the seats.

Joe
 
AuntPeggy said:
Is that something I could help him with? (PPSEL) Or does it require his instructor in the left seat?
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There's no legal requirement for an instructor, so the question is whether you can teach him or not, and when speaking of spouses, that's a question the answer to which goes far beyond your own knowledge, skill, and teaching ability.
 
If he doesn't do it from the left seat, it is just a difference in sight picture that should be overcome with time and experience.
 
Areeda said:
For me the trick was to land with the center line between my legs (like you do in most round engine taildraggers). Once I got the yaw picture (by looking far enough down the runway) I could move it to between the seats.

Joe
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~~~~~~~ for me, the plane is on the centerline when the line runs up my left leg sorta - the woman with whom I trained for my CFI had a person doing that and simply held the chart up like a blinder so he couldn't see the centerline and had to focus in front of him - cured it right up
 
I did some crosswind landings in a 150 today from the right seat in preparation for the CFI and had some issues with it. My problem was that I was looking to the left a bit to try and line the nose up which through everything off. I needed to look straight ahead, just as if I was in the left seat.
 
Henning said:
Why does everyone always worry about the centerline?
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PTS standards... I think. I've got a student that lands pretty well, but can't get on the centerline right now. His previous training was all in a Champ on grass runways. Now we're getting him ready for the checkride, and that's the only major flaw I have with his landings.
Taildraggers certainly can cure you of the side load problem.
Also, when I'm doing a tailwheel endorsement, once a student gets the idea and we go out looking for some crosswinds, I tell 'em to forget the centerline if things get bad. Then we go to the downwind side of the runway and angle towards the upwind side to reduce whatever crosswind we can... I doubt many Cessna 172 guys get taught that.

Ryan
 
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RyanShort1 said:
PTS standards... I think. I've got a student that lands pretty well, but can't get on the centerline right now. His previous training was all in a Champ on grass runways. Now we're getting him ready for the checkride, and that's the only major flaw I have with his landings.
Taildraggers certainly can cure you of the side load problem.
Also, when I'm doing a tailwheel endorsement, once a student gets the idea and we go out looking for some crosswinds, I tell 'em to forget the centerline if things get bad. Then we go to the downwind side of the runway and angle towards the upwind side to reduce whatever crosswind we can... I doubt many Cessna 172 guys get taught that.
Ryan
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Should you really have to teach that? You would think that a person should be able to figure that out all for themselves....
 
Henning said:
Quit looking at the damned centerline, look at the end of the runway.
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That has always been 100% of my problem. Whenever my landings go to hell, I catch myself staring right off the end of the nose. I added "Eyes UP!" to the end of my pre-landing checklist for a while to break the habit again a while back, and it worked...

But if I'm tired or just being stupid, I'll plop one on and realize I never transitioned my eyes to the far end of the runway in the flare.

Only time I have to "cheat" and do a little looking out the side-window is during the flare on a REALLY wide runway...
 
Jeanie said:
~~~~~~~ for me, the plane is on the centerline when the line runs up my left leg sorta - the woman with whom I trained for my CFI had a person doing that and simply held the chart up like a blinder so he couldn't see the centerline and had to focus in front of him - cured it right up
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that's pretty much the way i was shown to do it. put the centerline under the right leg in the left seat, left leg in the right seat. usually ends up thumping the centerline lights/reflectors on rwy/taxiway. i understand it works for j-3s to 747s i'll fly right seat occasionally just for the change of scenery.
 
If you quit "looking" out the front, and "watch" the perspective out the side in your peripheral vision with your eyes pointed at the end of the runway, you'll hit the centerline every time in the correct attitude for landing. Once you're on short final and you know the runway ahead is going to be clear, there is no real reason to watch what's in front of you. Open up your field of vision, what's going on besides you will tell you more than what's in front.
 
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Henning said:
Should you really have to teach that? You would think that a person should be able to figure that out all for themselves....
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No, you shouldn't, but you'd be surprised what percentage of the tailwheel endorsements I've done so far wouldn't have thought of it unless it was mentioned to them... :rolleyes2:
I find that a lot of the guys down here won't even fly if there's a significant crosswind. The FBO usually loses at least 50% of the reservations when it's windy from my experience so far. I won't let my students wimp out unless it's really bad.

Ryan
 
Henning said:
Why does everyone always worry about the centerline?
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Checkrides.

I learned right quick and in a hurry that the nose on the centerline did me no good in my Chief on a wide runway -- I lost my reference, and landed with drift.

Next time I landed at KCKB, I put the left wheel on the centerline -- much easier to catch drift.

Wide runways (>100') are a bit of a challenge in the Chief as I lose the peripheral cue I depend on on a narrow runway or grass (most wide runways are crowned somewhat, which means from my low perch I can't see the edge of the runway).

Looking out the side becomes automatic once the landing attitude is set (not much except cowling to see straight ahead).

It's far easier to judge height above the ground looking out the side than straight ahead.
 
Then we go to the downwind side of the runway and angle towards the upwind side to reduce whatever crosswind we can... I doubt many Cessna 172 guys get taught that.

Ryan[/QUOTE]

~~~~~~~~~ One time at Midland Intrnl. KMAF the wind was 22 gstg 26 and off at a horrific angle, the Tower guys asked me (152re are you going to be OK? I said, "Yep, think so" .. I went to the far side of the runway in the 152 and set myself at an angle and took off that way - Pop, off the ground pretty quick and the crab was already set for runway heading :smile:,
the tower guys were like "Alright- nod nod"
Haven't tried landing like that though because of perspective of exactly what angle to try to hold for rollout.
 
Let's say we're talking about a 3000 x 75 runway. If you draw the diagonal (even just halfway down), the angle from one corner to the other side 1500 feet away is less than three degrees. Does a 3-degree change in the wind justify giving up all your margin for lateral error in event of a gust or some pilot slop? I think not, and I don't think the FAA recommends it, but YMMV.
 
Steve said:
that's pretty much the way i was shown to do it. put the centerline under the right leg in the left seat, left leg in the right seat. usually ends up thumping the centerline lights/reflectors on rwy/taxiway. i understand it works for j-3s to 747s i'll fly right seat occasionally just for the change of scenery.
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The parallax is reduced with height above the runway; in the 737 the centerline appears to pass almost directly under me when lined up on or near the ground. Putting the line under my right leg will put the aircraft well to the left of center - to the annoyance of marshalers and jetway operators everywhere. :)

I think the CFI student "knows" to look far, near, and around (and his not doing this is probably the cause of his woes). The root of the problem is that he's just not comfortable landing from the right seat yet. He's fixating. Practice ... and a positive attitude ... will do the trick.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Let's say we're talking about a 3000 x 75 runway. If you draw the diagonal (even just halfway down), the angle from one corner to the other side 1500 feet away is less than three degrees. Does a 3-degree change in the wind justify giving up all your margin for lateral error in event of a gust or some pilot slop? I think not, and I don't think the FAA recommends it, but YMMV.
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Fair enough, but when your landing distance is 800 feet (lots less in a strong headwind component) and the runway is wide enough it can make a significant difference of 10 degrees or so. Of course the centerline is recommended, but when you're in a strong crosswind in something like the Cub, you have to maximize your options.

Ryan
 
Ron Levy said:
I can think of two reasons:
  1. It maximizes the margin for error between your wheels and the edge of the runway.
  2. The PTS calls for it.
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1. Only when you have no wind or a straight headwind.

2. The PTS counts for a grand total of 5-7 hours of a career pilots life.

Thing is though my point was not to worry about the centerline. If you watch the perspectives on the sides and even them up and keep them stable, you will land on the centerline every time. Many many runways have no centerline at all. Ever seen one painted down the middle of the grass or dirt? Doesn't happen, yet we manage to land in the middle of them just fine all the time.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I find that a lot of the guys down here won't even fly if there's a significant crosswind.
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But, you're in Texas....how can people be fair wx flyers in Texas?????

The worst x-winds I've ever seen were in the beautiful state of Texas!
 
RyanShort1 said:
Fair enough, but when your landing distance is 800 feet (lots less in a strong headwind component) and the runway is wide enough it can make a significant difference of 10 degrees or so.
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Even without considering just how "significant" a difference of 10 degrees is, that would be a 150-foot wide runway. Most places with a runway that wide have a second runway which would be more aligned with the wind. And there's still the pesky problem of that gust just as you're touching down on the downwind edge of the runway, which is, I suspect, the main reason the FAA doesn't recommend this technique, and does require landing on runway center in all the PTS's.
 
Henning said:
Ron Levy said:
I can think of two reasons:
  1. It maximizes the margin for error between your wheels and the edge of the runway.
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1. Only when you have no wind or a straight headwind.
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So you're saying that there's no chance of lateral error when the wind isn't either calm or down the centerline? :confused: Sorry, I don't buy that. In fact, I'd say that's when your chance of lateral error is highest.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Fair enough, but when your landing distance is 800 feet (lots less in a strong headwind component) and the runway is wide enough it can make a significant difference of 10 degrees or so. Of course the centerline is recommended, but when you're in a strong crosswind in something like the Cub, you have to maximize your options.

Ryan
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I flew out of Harrison AR with a guy to go bring in an O-470 Stinson 108 he had just bought. When we got back there was a 40kt direct crosswind blowing from the south. He called me on the radio and said "lets go to..." "Nah, My car is here and I haven't got a couple hours to waste getting back here" "You can't land here, the crosswind is too much, you'll wreck my new plane!" "Watch me I'm gonna land with no crosswind." That confused him:D I lined up final perpendicular to the runway and lined up with a taxiway. I dropped it in on one edge of the runway in a three point and was at taxi speed by the time I hit the taxiway and taxiied up into the main hangar. He did another lap and followed me in. "Well, that worked pretty sweet", "Yeah, didn't it."
 
RyanShort1 said:
Of course the centerline is recommended, but when you're in a strong crosswind in something like the Cub, you have to maximize your options.
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If the runway is wide enough to actually be able to safely diagonal the runway, AND the wind requires this, you're talking about some pretty heavy near direct x-wind. In my experience, if there's actually enough wind present to exceed the capabilities of a Cub (over 30KTS direct x-wind), AND you really have that much runway width, you could probably make a landing DIRECTLY into the wind, across the runway, and be stopped before going off.

At this point, we're talking wind approaching the stall speed of a Cub. And to be exposed to this much wind at ground level, it takes a pretty wide open space without hangars and trees sheltering and cutting the wind. This much wide open space would likely make the cross runway landing possible. I'd sure do it if I had too...even if it meant landing on a perpendicular taxiway. I'd rather explain my actions than wreck a nice Cub.

When the wind really starts kicking this much, it's likely that there's some good gusting and mechanical turbulence going on, which can make it very hard to put the plane down EXACTLY where you want it, AND stop short. It's definitely no given that you'll be able to get a Cub down and stopped in 800' diagonal to the runway in a 30kt gusting crosswind. I personally would not try this diagonal technique in high winds even on a wide runway due to safety as well as the relative insignificant decrease in x-wind component as mentioned by another poster.

This "technique" seems to be something that gets bantered about a lot, but rarely actually put to good use, mostly because it's fairly impractical and not very worthwhile. Cost/risk/benefit thing...
 
Ron Levy said:
So you're saying that there's no chance of lateral error when the wind isn't either calm or down the centerline? :confused: Sorry, I don't buy that. In fact, I'd say that's when your chance of lateral error is highest.
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But being in the middle doesn't maximize your margin for error.
 
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