GPS for IFR student, what do you recommend

[kauaibobby]

I am looking for a GPS but dont really want to spend the $$$ for a 430w
or 530w, plus they seem like a big learning curve to use them.
I dont have DME in my plane so i thought I could get a IFR GPS to satisfiy the DME requirement, I hope.
What about all these older GPS i see, which units can you still use for approaches.
What about waas GPS are they really worth it.
Any recommendations of what I should get would be great.
Happy flying.
Bob

 

[jesse]

As far as the 430 being a "learning curve" I assure you it's a hell of a lot easier than about every GPS produced prior to it, imo.

I prefer the 430 mostly because damn near every airplane has them these days. You learn one and you're set for many.

 

[Areeda]

I agree with Jesse. We have them in almost all club airplanes and my plane.

I've taught plenty of instrument students, it did not delay the checkride and I believe it made them safer pilots.

Joe

 

[gprellwitz]

The other thing is that the FAA is spending a lot of effort on certifying WAAS approaches, so a unit that will take advantage of that would be a big plus. Of course, that market seems to be dominated by Garmin.

 

[spiderweb]

Understand the anxiety. But the best thing is to find a patient and competent CFI--or, really, any pilot who uses the unit. Once you learn the knobs and buttons, I assure you, you will be a happier pilot AND a more informed pilot, too!

 

[Henning]

You can get the King units for a fraction of the price of a 430W, but I don't really see a value. The learning curve for the 430W is a few hours with the book and simulator so it's really not quite as daunting as it may first appear, and once you have a grasp of it, it is pretty feature rich. My only issue with it is no Victor Airways. If I was getting just the radio, I'd get the 530W. I went ahead and got the G-500 as well, so I just got the 430W since I already had a large display.

If you keep your eyes open and give a heads up to some avionics shops, you can find a used 480 (no W as they were all WAAS from day one from UPS which was bought out by Garmin) for around $4k. There is question though about future supportability.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Another recommendation to go for the 430W. Having one will also make your airplane much easier to sell when the time comes. They're popular, they're one of the easiest to use, and they have one of the fullest feature sets. Due to their popularity, you should have no trouble finding a CFII who is familiar with them.

I was going to say that if you absolutely can't afford a 430W, the King KLN 94 is cheaper, but it's non-WAAS and with the amount of $$$ you're going to spend installing one, you're better off with the 430W in the long run anyway.

As for WAAS, the FAA is certifying those approaches at an impressive rate - It's where everything is moving to. It gives you a lot more options in a "doomsday" scenario in IMC, and if you have an autopilot it adds a lot of functionality there too.

 

[TMetzinger]

The installation cost of any unit is going to be significant - so you might as well put in the right unit. The recommendations for the 430W are good ones.

 

[John Collins]

If you keep your eyes open and give a heads up to some avionics shops, you can find a used 480 (no W as they were all WAAS from day one from UPS which was bought out by Garmin) for around $4k. There is question though about future supportability.

For the fans of the GNS480, they would kill for one at $4,000. On EBay, they sell for as much if not more than a GNS430W. A more realistic price would be $7,000 +.

 

[Henning]

For the fans of the GNS480, they would kill for one at $4,000. On EBay, they sell for as much if not more than a GNS430W. A more realistic price would be $7,000 +.

When I was shopping 6 months ago, I could have bought one trays and all for $4k as it was coming out of a helicopter. I almost bought it as a second radio so I'd have a 430W and a 480.

 

[John Collins]

As others have indicated, the installation costs can exceed the costs of the older unit and the difference between an installed IFR GPS of the older vintage is within about $3,000 of the GNS430W. Get a quote between the two solutions and then choose, then it might be clearer to you.

IMHO, WAAS offers so much over a non WAAS unit, it is no contest. Vertically guided GPS approaches with lower minimums in most cases, sole means of IFR navigation as opposed to supplementary means of navigation. Better autopilot support with improved roll steering. In the case of the GNS430W/530W it includes a free terrain feature.

I have rarely flown approaches based on ground navigation facilities over the last 3+ years, and the only ILS approaches I have flown are for practice. I have no recollection of flying a VOR approach or a NDB approach, even for practice and the VOR receiver is only used for cross checking and the 30 day VOR check.

 

[John Collins]

When I was shopping 6 months ago, I could have bought one trays and all for $4k as it was coming out of a helicopter. I almost bought it as a second radio so I'd have a 430W and a 480.

You should have bought it, the seller had no idea of its value. You could have then sold it on eBay for a $3000 easy profit.

 

[poadeleted20]

As far as the 430 being a "learning curve" I assure you it's a hell of a lot easier than about every GPS produced prior to it, imo. I prefer the 430 mostly because damn near every airplane has them these days. You learn one and you're set for many.

Having trained folks on just about every light plane IFR GPS there is, I agree 100% with Jesse. The 430/530 is the easiest to learn (partly by good design and partly by the availability of good training materials) and by far the most common unit you'll encounter.

 

[murphey]

The best I've seen in the Colorado area is $8K for used 430 (don't remember if it was WAAS or not) which included the annunciator and installation.

In the short term if money is really an issue, you can find a used DME (it'll probably be a Narco) for about $1-1.5K, and the install probably around $500.

If I had the spare $8K right now, I'd get the 430W, no question.

 

[ejensen]

You may find that installed used equipment is about the same as installed new. The shops get a pretty good cut from Garmin. Somehow the used unit you bring in cost a lot more to install than the one they provide.

 

[John Collins]

You may find that installed used equipment is about the same as installed new. The shops get a pretty good cut from Garmin. Somehow the used unit you bring in cost a lot more to install than the one they provide.

It is simple mathematics. The shop has over $4000 to work with in margin on the GNS430W and it takes about 40 hours of labor for a typical install. The total price less any discounts yields the available margin. If the customer buys there own GPS, then you can expect to pay full boat for the labor to install it. At least that's the way it works in the free market.

 

[poadeleted20]

It is simple mathematics. The shop has over $4000 to work with in margin on the GNS430W and it takes about 40 hours of labor for a typical install. The total price less any discounts yields the available margin. If the customer buys there own GPS, then you can expect to pay full boat for the labor to install it. At least that's the way it works in the free market.

Kinda like the old Fram oil filter commercial -- "You can pay me now, or pay me later." Or the "find the umbrella" story about the expense report.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I just did a 420W (just like a 430W, but doesn't have the NAV radio) in the 6.

I priced out an 89B at $6500 and a 94 at $9200. I couldn't justify putting that kinda money into an obsolete box.

So, I went for a new GNC-420W with a new audio panel, and kept my KX-155 with GS, $15.6k installed.

 

[ejensen]

It is simple mathematics. The shop has over $4000 to work with in margin on the GNS430W and it takes about 40 hours of labor for a typical install. The total price less any discounts yields the available margin. If the customer buys there own GPS, then you can expect to pay full boat for the labor to install it. At least that's the way it works in the free market.

I understand, Garmin sets the advertised price and frowns on discounts. But dealer is free to subsidize labor with his profit margin. A little more than simple math, you can't separate the labor from the merchandise.

 

[azure]

If you keep your eyes open and give a heads up to some avionics shops, you can find a used 480 (no W as they were all WAAS from day one from UPS which was bought out by Garmin) for around $4k. There is question though about future supportability.

Yes, the big question is how long Garmin will continue to support it. And that's the only real negative about the 480 that I can see. I don't think it's any more difficult to learn than the 430/430W. It just has a very different keystroke-ology. There is also a false notion among some 480 fans that you can't go direct from anywhere to an airport like you can with the 430. Sure you can, you just have to make it your Destination if you want to fly an approach when you get there.

The best thing the 430W/530W has going for it is that there are so many of them out there, that learning it is a very transferable skill. You are unlikely to run into many 480s, and since they're no longer made, there will probably be fewer and fewer of them... especially if Garmin decides to orphan the model entirely.

 

[John Collins]

I understand, Garmin sets the advertised price and frowns on discounts. But dealer is free to subsidize labor with his profit margin. A little more than simple math, you can't separate the labor from the merchandise.

The simple math is you need to make money to stay in business. This unfortunetly seems like a bad thing to too many.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The best thing the 430W/530W has going for it is that there are so many of them out there, that learning it is a very transferable skill.

Not to mention, the whole 400/500 series works basically the same, so if you learn the 430W, you can use a 530W with no additional training.

Plus, the G1000 uses the same philosophy as the 400/500 series, so if you learn the 430W, it'll make it much easier to get into a G1000 bird, which they're churning out a lot of these days. You'll even recognize the exact same buttons from the 430 (PROC, FPL, CLR, ENT, -D>, the FMS knob, etc.) are on the G1000 and work exactly the same way.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In the short term if money is really an issue, you can find a used DME (it'll probably be a Narco) for about $1-1.5K, and the install probably around $500.

IMNSHO, Narco equipment is worth -(cost of removal). If it's already in the plane when you buy it, budget for replacement, use it as long as it works, and when it quits do not spend another red cent on it.

I say this because Narco won't let anyone else work on their radios, so you have to send it in to Narco. First time I had the displeasure of doing so, it took 13 months before they even looked at the radio, and another three to fix it. The second time, it came back promptly, with the fix being replacement of a single capacitor.

For $700.

 

[Ted]

I have a KLN94 in the Aztec and love it. I have a 530 in the 310 and love it.

The 430/530 will improve your resale value over the KLN94 or any obsolete box. If I were to do it again, I'd probably buy a 530 for the Aztec. Ultimately, they all do the same thing. The 430/530 just do it in a manner that most people like.

 

[Ghery]

We've got a 430 in the plane I'm finishing my IR in. On Top has a good 430 simulation in the panel of its default 172. That and the manual (downloadable for free from the Garmin website) and you can learn the 430 fairly quickly.

Oh, and DME? I've flown a couple IR lessons in a non-DME equipped plane. Not again unless I have no choice. It makes some things easier, and some approaches require it. Imagine a DME arc without it?

 

[jesse]

Oh, and DME? I've flown a couple IR lessons in a non-DME equipped plane. Not again unless I have no choice. It makes some things easier, and some approaches require it. Imagine a DME arc without it?

You can do a DME arc with an IFR gps.

 

[poadeleted20]

I understand, Garmin sets the advertised price and frowns on discounts. But dealer is free to subsidize labor with his profit margin.

...and there's no profit margin for the shop on a GPS you buy on eBay and bring into the shop.

 

[poadeleted20]

Oh, and DME? I've flown a couple IR lessons in a non-DME equipped plane. Not again unless I have no choice. It makes some things easier, and some approaches require it. Imagine a DME arc without it?

If you have an IFR GPS, there's really no point in having a DME in the plane other than as a backup in case the GPS quits and you need DME; otherwise, the distance data in the GPS will do just fine for any unpublished DME concerns. For published DME arcs and fixes, they are way, way easier with a GPS like the 430/530 than with an actual DME (and ATC doesn't give DME arcs other than as part of a published procedure in which case your 430/530 will have the arc in it).

 

[ejensen]

...and there's no profit margin for the shop on a GPS you buy on eBay and bring into the shop.

Exactly. I understand it just don't like controlled prices game. Ran into it with some manufacturers when I worked retail years ago. The big stores got better deals but everyone had to charge the same price. No competition on the price side allowed. Granted this was retail so no big labor cushion to help. Would be nice to know what you're really paying for the equipment and the labor. I've never had a problem bring parts to my A&P. Wouldn't try it at the avionics shop.

 

[John Collins]

Exactly. I understand it just don't like controlled prices game. Ran into it with some manufacturers when I worked retail years ago. The big stores got better deals but everyone had to charge the same price. No competition on the price side allowed. Granted this was retail so no big labor cushion to help. Would be nice to know what you're really paying for the equipment and the labor. I've never had a problem bring parts to my A&P. Wouldn't try it at the avionics shop.

I used to be a Garmin dealer when I operated an avionics shop. Garmin set the list price and a minimum advertised price for its products, but I could sell for a loss if I wanted to, I just couldn't advertise it. You will see a lot of avionics shops that won't list a price, but say call for a price. When you call, they can use any price they want.

As a practical matter, a profit dollar is a profit dollar and it doesn't make any difference where it comes from, the labor or the markup. A good rule of thumb in most GPS installations is that you can get them installed for close to list price. Depending on the product, the dealer's cost is 60 to 75 percent of the list price, and most competitive shops will discount. You can usually work a better deal on a GNS530W than a GNS430W because they take the same amount of labor to install, but there is a lot more margin in the GNS530W that can be used for discounting.

If you brought in a GPS to our shop and wanted it installed, we would normally do the work, but would charge actual hours of labor as we didn't have the cushion of the markup on the hardware to fall back on if we ran over.

The best remedy for being overcharged is to get firm quotes from at least three shops and let each shop know it is bidding against its competitors for your business.

 

[denverpilot]

If I had the spare $8K right now, I'd get the 430W, no question.

I wouldn't. $8000 will operate my aircraft for a significant amount of flight time.

If our current operating cost spreadsheet is right, at our current expenses, and if I we're flying 6 hours a month, it'd pay for 57 hours of flight time, hangar, all maintenance, the aircraft loan, annual and maintenance... ALL-IN. (Also includes a $25/hr engine overhaul fund.)

Jump to 9 hours a month, and since the fixed costs remain the same, the hourly drops (might need another oil change in there, so the numbers are a tad off but it's close enough for government work here in a quickie post...) it'd pay for 66 hours of flight time.

As someone in another thread pointed out, if we were willing to base the aircraft 30 more miles from home, at another local airport with cheaper/better hangars, that would cut our hangar cost by almost half, and the amount of flight time the 430W would pay for would jump to 70 hours.

Nothing in our panel is all that expensive with everyone wanting GPSs in their panels... I must thank you guys who are converting to glass... you've made servicable "replacement parts" for my panel much cheaper. You guys are providing an incredible amount of "spare parts" at the avionics shops these days at slightly lower prices than previously seen. Keep converting. I like the trend. :wink2:

It's a solid King stack, IFR certified, and now that we've had the ADF pulled and a shop visit last week to fix the AI, and replace the TC that was commanding the autopilot to bank left all the time, everything will be operating perfectly once we can pick up the aircraft from the shop. That shop visit won't come anywhere close to the installed price of a 430W.

There's no way a 430W is worth the opportunity costs lost of dropping 50+ flight hours, when a VFR GPS hanging from the yoke, and perfectly working "standard" IFR avionics in the panel are working just fine.

In order to get the full "use" out of the 430, I'd need a new autopilot, GPSS steering, and a multi-axis autopilot, too.

Let's see... 50-70 additional hours of flight time next year, or a 430W and zero hours in the logbook as a starting point after it's installed?

Personally, I would rather go flying.

I can't cost-justify it. I can't even think of a significant safety reason to make up a reason to cost-justify it.

Someone also recently tried that "well, you can't file direct!" stuff with me. Uhh, yeah... well... oh no! ... my penalty is that I'll have to FLY more on a non-direct routing? Darn. Sign me up.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I can't cost-justify it. I can't even think of a significant safety reason to make up a reason to cost-justify it.

Personal GA flying is in no way logical....That's the logic I used to talk my wife into letting me buy a GPS.

I looked at the numbers and decided that I could maintain my current number of flying hours and buy the GPS while not letting my children go hungry. So it worked. But, I agree if you want more hours in the air, then dumping money into new avionics doesn't really help.

I really wanted an IFR powerhouse. The ADF crapped out and with one NAV radio it wasn't going to work.

 

[poadeleted20]

The nice thing about this is that we can all make those choices for ourselves. For some, life without a full-service WAAS GPS is unthinkable, regardless of the price. For others, anything more than dual nav/comms and a GS (or a mag compass and a sectional for VFR) isn't worth one extra buck. The question we each have to ask ourselves is what the various capabilities are worth to us, regardless of what someone else is willing to pay for them. Beyond that, it's a matter of finding out what they each do, and obtaining a realistic estimate of the cost.

 

[somorris]

The question we each have to ask ourselves is what the various capabilities are worth to us, regardless of what someone else is willing to pay for them.

Amen, Cap'n Ron. We all have to pay our money and take our choice.

 

[Henning]

Exactly. I understand it just don't like controlled prices game. Ran into it with some manufacturers when I worked retail years ago. The big stores got better deals but everyone had to charge the same price. No competition on the price side allowed. Granted this was retail so no big labor cushion to help. Would be nice to know what you're really paying for the equipment and the labor. I've never had a problem bring parts to my A&P. Wouldn't try it at the avionics shop.

Just ask. I used Aviation Classics in Reno, and everything was made quite clear.

 

[Ghery]

You can do a DME arc with an IFR gps.

You can, indeed

If you have an IFR GPS, there's really no point in having a DME in the plane other than as a backup in case the GPS quits and you need DME; otherwise, the distance data in the GPS will do just fine for any unpublished DME concerns. For published DME arcs and fixes, they are way, way easier with a GPS like the 430/530 than with an actual DME (and ATC doesn't give DME arcs other than as part of a published procedure in which case your 430/530 will have the arc in it).

True enough. However, I like having the DME in the panel, along with the traditional steam gauges. Why? Because with the 430 in the radio stack it is out of my field of vision without turning my head. The DME is readable with a quick eye movement. Same with the CDIs and GS. The 430 makes a lot of the work of flying an approach easier, but when the workload goes up I like to be able to have everything I need right in front of me. If we only had an HDI in the panel... A week or so ago I was up with my CFII and we did the VOR DME 35 into OLM three times (along with the ILS 17 twice). The last time I used the DME and VOR receiver with paying much attention to the 430. It was the best of the three approaches to rwy 35. Maybe it's just me. I rather enjoyed the partial panel ILS 17 into OLM last night, too. But, the 430 was really handy for that one.