ICE VIRGIN

dennyleeb

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I just passed my IFR test a few months ago. I have a turbo 182. No deice except for hot prop, heated pitot, things like that. I have never had so much as a frosting on the plane when flying and I will try to keep it that way however I would like some real life ice stories and advice. I know the book stuff and have had my instructor and examiner talk to me but I want more info for my safety. The only times I have flown through clouds in below freezing temps is when there was no airmets, no pireps with icing. I have just gone through thin layers with no icing. Now I do not intend to push my luck on this issue so that is why I would like more info.
 
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I've picked up trace rime a couple of times on 172/182s, including one time in VFR conditions (with enough mist to adhere). Have an out and execute it immediately. For me, it was climb one time, descend another, and get out of the raincloud the third time.
 
AIRMET Zulu only captures about 80 percent of the pilot reports for icing. So, the lack of pireps and the lack of AIRMETs does not imply the lack of structural icing.

+1
-a firm understanding of weather systems and some common sense is the best way to avoid the bad stuff in the first place.



Some of the worse icing I have ever been in there were no AIRMETS/PIREPS. A call to the tower can unveil a bunch of helpful pireps that aren't in "the system" if you are really wondering. The worst time to be in this position is early morning, not many planes have departed and freight dogs usually don't Pirep..no fun being the "guinea pig" on area icing.


-The adds icing product is very helpful, but understand the forecasting component (fip) is telling you how likley ice is in a percentage, does not depict severity like the current icing product does.

I'm sure others will chime in with full power ILS stories, but remember to leave the flaps up and land fast.
 
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The two times I've seen ice on the plane were in a C-182. Once the day before my PP checkride (yes, CFII in the right seat) when we punched into a cloud and iced up immediately. Got lower and shed the ice when we got out of the clouds. NOT FUN! The second time last winter when we picked up light rime ice (IR lesson, CFII in right seat). Got my attention, but no impact on the plane's flying characteristics.

Flying with a new CFII this evening and his question was, "What are the three anti-ice systems on this plane (same C-182 as previously)?" Pitot heat, defroster and carb heat. Not enough to even think about wanting to fly in ice. He and I are birds of a feather when it comes to ice - chickens. We're not flying a FIKI bird and we don't get paid to be test pilots. Does this limit when we fly here in the great Pacific Northwe(s)t? You bet. Much better to stay on the ground and live to fly another day. Great VFR conditions at OLM tonight, not far away was hard IMC. You pick your battles.
 
however I would like some .....snip....... advice.


Keep your 'virginity' on this. It is a precious thing.

Thought of another way,....I cannot recall anyone relating an icing story by saying "That was fun, I need to do that again!"
 
Interesting thread and replies:

My CFII has taken me into light icing in order for me to be able to: 1-See how quickly it forms on the airframe and what it looks like, 2-Discuss in real world terms before going into the moisture, what my out would be as it relates to the actual indications I was getting from the navigational instruments in the plane 3-Learn how to cope with it and react to it rather than having NEVER seen it and then getting into a 'panic' situation and reacting improperly. Mind you, this was not a lesson in a non-certified plane entering FIKI as a standard procedure. The point of the lesson was that there are going to be times when you fly through a layer and pick up some ice...I consider these flights some of my most important lessons I have ever had in the plane.
 
Keep your 'virginity' on this. It is a precious thing.

Thought of another way,....I cannot recall anyone relating an icing story by saying "That was fun, I need to do that again!"

Well I will try however there are not to many instrument rated pilots who have not got some inadvertent ice at some point.
 
AIRMET Zulu only captures about 80 percent of the pilot reports for icing. So, the lack of pireps and the lack of AIRMETs does not imply the lack of structural icing.

sure I understand that, that is why i am looking for more info
 
I've picked up trace rime a couple of times on 172/182s, including one time in VFR conditions (with enough mist to adhere). Have an out and execute it immediately. For me, it was climb one time, descend another, and get out of the raincloud the third time.

always have planned a out on all my trips so far and will continue that, no out=no go
 
let me ask the question another way

When have you had inadvertent(or better unexpected) ice, what conditions existed, what did you do?

Has anyone been in freezing rain? What conditons? What did you do? I have heard the power on ILS stories.
 
I'd just avoid venturing through layers where you might get ice in the first place. If you make a rule of staying VFR in the winter, then that's probably a good rule.

It's impossible to go through all the times when icing has occurred. Certainly airmets can give you an idea, but it would be better to take a look at where the clouds are and where you're going to be flying. If the layer only goes up to 10,000 ft, there are holes you can climb through VFR to get on top and it's clear at your destination, then I would take that over an IFR clearance that takes you through clouds that'll likely ice you up.

But if you're going to venture into it, then always have an out (able to descend back below and make a visual approach to where you departed is a good one). Since you have a turbo, that does help you in climbing ability.
 
When have you had inadvertent(or better unexpected) ice, what conditions existed, what did you do?

I 've never gotten far enough to get ice on the airframe (just too cautious when it comes to ice) but I had an experience shortly after getting my IR while flying in Texas in early springtime. I was flying from Corpus to Addison - early morning weather brief didn't look too bad and didn't appear to show any real ice concerns. Just before startup, I received a text msg from my Brother-in-law at GVT.....said something like 'watch out for ice - got really cold here last night'. I continued on - first half of the flight was all VMC, then over College Station, I could see the cloud layer ahead of me - If I continued, I knew that I was eventually going to have to fly through that layer to get to ADS below it.

I contacted Flight Watch and asked for updated weather for the Dallas area - sure enough, MD-80s were reporting light ice on climbout from DFW. I figured that if the jets were making PIREPS for ice on climbout, that was no place for me and the little Cardinal. So I told the controller I wanted to canx IFR and descend below the layer while I still could and proceed VFR to my alternate which happened to be GVT. Aside from the 30 kt crosswind component that I had to deal with at GVT, all ended well.

Honestly, at that point in my flying, I was still young and stoopid (well, now I'm still a little bit stoopid, but not as young). If I hadn't gotten that text msg, I don't know that I would have bothered to contact Flight Watch enroute for an update and consequently would have found myself on top of that layer having to descend through it during the approach. If everything went as planned and there were no delays in the approach, I probably would have survived (the layer wasn't that thick), but I bet that I would have scared the crap out of myself (especially since I wasn't expecting the ice) and then again, Murphy's law says that's when ATC is going to give you a hold, or vector you all over the place for traffic while you are building up ice. It was definitely a learning experience for me and I didn't have to change my shorts on the ground.

Point is (and what I learned from the experience) - like Ted and others mentioned, if there is ANY chance for ice, make darn sure you have an out and constantly monitor things - touch base with the weather guys on the ground to get the latest updates and be flexible to adjust your plans when the weather doesn't cooperate.
 
let me ask the question another way

When have you had inadvertent(or better unexpected) ice, what conditions existed, what did you do?

Has anyone been in freezing rain? What conditons? What did you do? I have heard the power on ILS stories.

I'm flying a "fully deiced" (i.e. has all the equipment but was never tested or certified because that wasn't required when the type was certified) twin and encounter ice fairly often in the winter. My goal is to always find a way out of the ice as soon as it starts to build and if I can't exit by the time my IAS has dropped 20 Kt I'm gonna be looking for the nearest suitable place to land. Prior to this airplane I had a Bonanza with nothing more than a heated pitot and a marginal windshield defroster. I did get into ice with the Bo a few times but accumulated more than an inch using a similar but more conservative methodology (i.e. avoiding cold clouds and postponing more trips).

There are four categories of icing strategies and techniques: planning, inflight avoidance, escape, and coping.

On the planning side there are a lot more resources today than in the past but it's still nearly impossible to get a clear answer to the existence of ice on any given trip much of the time. More often than not it comes down to whether or not there is substantial evidence that ice will be a problem. If you can get pireps along and upwind of your route and there are multiple reports of light to moderate or worse at altitudes you need to fly, if there's any report or forecast of freezing precip, or if it's raining and the freezing level is too low to fly beneath you've got plenty of reason to stay on the ground (deiced or not). Other than that, it's a rather grey area, and the decision to make the attempt should consider the consequences of aborting or diverting the flight and involve the identification of one's "outs". Many pilots will tell you that you should always have "an out" but my philosophy is that you should never go without at least two because it's all to likely that at least one will prove to be unavailable when you need it. Starting with two and executing one if the other disappears should keep you safe since the odds of both going away at the same time are pretty small. And that's the primary reason I wanted an airplane with deiced wings, props, and windshield: the equipment is one of my planned "outs" so I only need one more to minimize the risk. Other examples are at least a thousand feet of above freezing air above the ground (in the flatlands), an airplane with great climb performance and known clear skies above a relatively shallow layer of clouds, turbocharging and weather you can top from the departure without getting into any clouds, VFR conditions below the clouds, to name a few. And it's worth mentioning that for the most part this is about flying outside mountainous areas because the icing issues are far more complicated when the terrain is tall and rough and mountains tend to eliminate a great number of potential outs available elsewhere. Finally, part of the planning process should be identifying areas where ice is most likely such as downwind of large bodies of unfrozen water, the NE quadrant of a low pressure area, and downwind of upslope terrain relatively perpendicular to the wind. You also need to consider increasing your fuel reserves. If you do pick up any ice it will slow you down and/or require extra power. Staying above the clouds often means fighting more headwind than you would otherwise have to deal with. Finally, plan to make the trip in daylight. It's far more difficult to avoid clouds at night and the lack of sun means you probably won't be able to lose any ice above the clouds.

Inflight avoidance tricks at the departure end include climbing through holes, zoom climbs, and staying below the clouds. Enroute you can deviate around clouds if ice is likely (you can sometimes dip into one briefly to determine if that's the case), cruise over the tops, fly at an altitude where the OAT is colder than -20C, fly low enough that the air is above 0C or you're below the clouds, or fly in snow (snow generally does a good job of sucking up all the unfrozen supercooled water but the tops of the clouds producing the snow often generates ice as well). Since high altitude is involved in many of these methods, supplemental oxygen and a pulse oximeter should be considered mandatory if you're counting on them. One of my favorite tricks to stay above a mid level cloud layer is to ask ATC for a 1000 ft block altitude as this can minimize the necessary height to remain cloud and ice free in many cases. If there are ice issues at the destination don't let ATC push you down into the ice prematurely. If you tell them you want to stay above the clouds as long as possible for ice avoidance they will generally be accommodating. It helps if you offer to accept indirect vectors while remaining up high and also let them know what your plan is (e.g. "I would like to stay at 5000 until 15nm from KABC"). It's also a good idea to plan your route to avoid any nearby Class B where ATC's flexibility can be limited even if that means not landing at the closest airport to your ground destination.

Then there's the escape issue. If your deice is limited to pitot heat you should initiate an escape the moment you see ice accumulating or sooner (you might want to execute an out simply because you can't avoid the clouds like you planned). For an unprotected airplane in level flight the best exit is often directly behind you, if the air there was ice free a couple minutes ago it probably still is. Getting below the freezing level is almost always a good way to escape if that option exists, but to keep on top of that one should be checking the surface temps along your route continuously. ATC, especially approach control, can often tell you the current freezing level in their area. If they don't know they can ask another pilot that's arriving or departing. Except in the vicinity of an active frontal system you can almost always escape ice by changing altitude by 3000-4000 ft but if that leaves you in the clouds the ice you've already collected will not sublimate. If you can get above the highest clouds into the sunshine whatever ice you picked up will slowly dissipate but it can take as long as an hour to shed it completely. In anything worse than trace to light ice most NA airplanes won't be able to climb more than a few thousand feet since even a little ice significantly erodes the ability to climb. If climbing is one of your planned outs, you should execute that option early and be prepared to switch to out #2 as soon as you detect much performance loss. Keep in mind that switching to airways from a direct leg often lets you get a lower altitude as does flying in areas served by approach control (this info can be used when planning the flight as well).

On the coping side of things, there are some useful tricks to minimize the effects of ice as well:

Cycle the prop rapidly over a few hundred RPM every few minutes. This flexes the blades breaking off some of the ice.

Pay attention to the MP and activate carb heat or alternate air if it drops at all. On some airplanes it's best to switch to heated or alternate air anytime you're picking up ice.

Keep your speed up. Ice raises the stall speed by an unknown amount and can make recovery impossible. Don't use flaps if there's any ice on the tail (hint: if you have any ice on the wings the tail is probably worse).

If you are landing with ice, use a runway that's twice as long as you normally feel comfortable on. You will be coming in a lot faster than normal (extra speed for no flaps plus extra speed to avoid stalling) and the runway might be slippery.

If you must fly an approach and are carrying ice or expect to pick some up on the approach, assume that a go-around is NOT possible and plan accordingly. Diverting to a "big" airport for an ILS with the full Monte approach lights into a long wide runway is probably in order.

In a retract, you may need to leave the gear up until you're almost over the runway in order to get there but don't forget to lower it before touching down! If someone is riding with you, ask them to remind you about the gear when they see the runway. In such a situation it's likely you'll be carrying enough power to defeat the gear warning.

Don't even think about making a smooth or full stall landing but try real hard to avoid touching nosewheel first. Remember that the plane is likely to feel quite different than normal in the flare (you may not get much of a flare either).
 
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I've picked up ice maybe a half-dozen times including one time out over the desert, at night with spotty ATC coverage. :(

The novelty of lasts for a whole maybe 5 seconds before you'll start to really want to do something about it. For me it's usually over the top of some mountain range out here and is half-expected.

Depending on the temps at the other altitudes and how much ice you've picked up, it will melt off. Situational awareness and keeping calm are huge assets.

It's also VERY helpful knowing how much ice your plane will carry. No real easy way to find that out though. ;)
 
Good reply by Lance above :thumbsup:

I fly an airplane whose only de-ice is a TKS prop, and that works really well - for the prop, and the front window which is covered in TKS mist.

My strategy is to scrap a flight if there is a reasonable probability that the enroute section cannot be done in VMC. Obviously the qualifier is that you won't get icing if the OAT is above 0C :) but here in Europe most enroute IFR flight has to be done at levels which put you squarely into potential icing conditions.

I know many pilots who disagree with this, citing many flights in solid IMC on which they didn't pick up ice, but IMHO this is rubbish. I have often been in potentially icing conditions on flights outside controlled airspace (making sure I can descend if needed into warm enough air) and icing is highly random; some flights you could sit there for an hour and get nothing, not even even to cover the rivet heads, and then on another flight you pick up 5mm in 30 seconds and it just keeps coming, and then it just as suddenly stops. It's OK to play with it, on a little local pop-up into some cloud, and when you have an obvious easy escape route down below, but let's say you have 4hrs to run and you have already picked up 5mm... you get the idea, I am sure.

One problem is that estimating actual cloud tops is not easy. I have some cloud tops articles on my website, which use IR satellite imagery. I am sure the USA has these images too. I have found these really excellent; they have not once let me down.

Forecast tops is a much more random "science". Here in Europe we use the US-run GFS model (which WX-BRIEF and every other weather website gets it from too, ultimately) and various websites have sprung up which plot the raw data in various graphical presentations which show the vertical humidity profile and thus depict the vertical IMC profile, but over several years of plugging away at this stuff I have now given up because it is far too inaccurate. GFS is such a poor predictor of the RH vertical profile that one would scrap a load of flights which on the IR imagery are going to be easily doable VMC on top at say 15000ft (you need oxygen, obviously) and which is verified on the actual flight.

GFS is a good predictor of temperatures at altitude, however. It is the humidity they have major problems forecasting. However, the nature of convective weather is that it is highly statistical and a weather model can forecast all kinds of stuff which actually exists 200nm off your route...

Dealing with potentially icing conditions in the terminal areas, where you have to climb/descend through the stuff, is more tricky. I am generally happier in the descent IF there is warm air down below; one exception is going to airports where one is likely to get a hold (very very rare over here, for GA). As for climbs, I would climb through several thousand feet of stratus cloud below 0C and I know that will be OK.

We have no PIREPs in Europe and no SIGMETs etc which are worth anything whatsoever, and I would be a little suprised if a PIREP is worth anything unless coming from an aircraft more or less right on your route, level, and with a similar TAS. An extra 50kt TAS makes a big difference to the icing potential, because the aerodynamic heating effectively narrows the width of the temperature band in which icing is likely (roughly 0C to -15C in stratus cloud). So a no-ice report from a TBM850 is not worth a lot to you at 100kt :)
 
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Ah the joys of being a test pilot.

Each ice encounter is unique and therefore you are a test pilot each time.

Note: I never logged ice encounters but flying in New England and the Midwest on regularly scheduled routes year round for more than a decade it is probably well in excess of 500.

Most of what our colleagues have already stated is excellent information and procedure. A few of additions and perhaps emphasis though.

1) Don't intentionally fly in ice in your I-182. Never, Never, Never. Virginity is underrated.

2) I have gotten icing when OAT was above 0 so give yourself a few degrees of margin. Most air carrier ops manual call for energizing anti - ice equipment at 3 - 5 degrees C above freezing.

3) If you find yourself in ice turn off the auto-pilot. It is tempting to use it to reduce work load and normally I would, but as a test pilot you want to be one with the ship, auto pilots mask misbehavior.

3) Icing is not always layered. I once had icing from about 12k - 25k over at least 150 nm traveled laterally. This was not a warm front, but rather a weak cold front with towering cumulus.

4) Watch out for warm fronts. Not only do they bring widespread areas of low ceiling and visibility, they generate freezing precip which you must escape immediately even in FIKI aircraft.

5) SA, SA, SA. Situational awareness of course includes the traffic and ATC situation. Try to figure out who is in front of you, behind you, going in your direction, going away. Listen to what they are telling ATC. Are they asking for higher or lower? Why? Solicit Pireps from them. "Center, did that fellow in front of me in the Baron get any ice?" Center will frequently check with the Baron when s/he has a chance.

6) As noted above, otherwise benign clouds can have significant icing near the tops. So stay away from the tops and if you don't know where they are, maybe the plane in front can tell you.

7) As noted above flight in snow - out of clouds - rarely results in icing. Mostly you get a little impact snow but a/c performance remains nominal. However, if that snow starts to mix with freezing (snow is frozen not freezing) precip then get out of it. See 4 above.

8) Keep a powerful flashlight in the aircraft so you can check the airframe for ice while flying at night. There are many minor differences between a/c certified to fly in known ice and those that are simply equipped to fly in icing conditions. One of the most obvious is the installation of inspection lights on the FIKI aircraft.

Better yet, take the Nancy Reagan approach and just say no to ice in a C-182.
 
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