"Squawk standby in the pattern"

jasc15

jasc15

Pre-takeoff checklist
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I was doing some touch and go's at KISP earlier, and as they always do, they told me to squawk standby in the pattern. Why do they do this?
 
Reduce clutter on their screens.
 
jasc15 said:
I was doing some touch and go's at KISP earlier, and as they always do, they told me to squawk standby in the pattern. Why do they do this?
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Controlled airport with approach and tower, OK I guess understand; though still scratching my head if that is wise or even legal.

PLEASE don't turn off your transponder at an uncontrolled airport :eek:
 
mhockey21 said:
Is it bad if I would tell ATC and the "Air Carriers" to deal with it?
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It could be, if ATC chose to press the issue. You'd be operating your transponder other than as directed by ATC, in violation of FAR 91.215.
 
mhockey21 said:
Is it bad if I would tell ATC and the "Air Carriers" to deal with it?
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Why are you concerned about it? Just follow their instruction. It is for the ground-based folks anyway. You're in a class C airspace - what is the problem?
 
Baron2PG said:
Controlled airport with approach and tower, OK I guess understand; though still scratching my head if that is wise or even legal.
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It's legal if ATC tells you to do it ("Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC" in 91.215). In fact, if ATC tells you to squawk STBY, it's illegal not to do it (91.123).
 
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timwinters said:
What? We forgot how to look out the window?
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Be real, getting a visual on all traffic in a busy pattern is difficult at best. Having a TCAS display so you can see the pattern traffic from 6 miles out is a tremendous safety tool; unfortunately, if the transponder is off the traffic is invisible. If you really think you see all the traffic that is in the sky try flying with someone with TCAS and you will be surprised at what you've been missing.
 
It really seems to defeat the purpose of the TCAS if everyone is turning their transponders to STBY.

If an air carrier ever collides with a 172 there...can you imagine how the NTSB report would read? Or the public when they found out pilots were instructed to turn off their safety equipment?

Most every airport out there does not instruct airplanes to do so and the world keeps turning. Why is this one the exception?
 
Baron2PG said:
Be real, getting a visual on all traffic in a busy pattern is difficult at best. Having a TCAS display so you can see the pattern traffic from 6 miles out is a tremendous safety tool;
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That said, if you're in the pattern at a towered airport, you don't need to see traffic outside the D-space in order to be safe.
 
Baron2PG said:
Be real, getting a visual on all traffic in a busy pattern is difficult at best. Having a TCAS display so you can see the pattern traffic from 6 miles out is a tremendous safety tool; unfortunately, if the transponder is off the traffic is invisible. If you really think you see all the traffic that is in the sky try flying with someone with TCAS and you will be surprised at what you've been missing.
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This time a MILLION!!!

Even something like traffic in a G1000 will open your eyes like never before.
 
elmetal said:
This time a MILLION!!!

Even something like traffic in a G1000 will open your eyes like never before.
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How much traffic that has their transponders turned off can you see on that G1000?

Best not to bet your life on that display, especially if you fly around places where there are planes without an electrical system in them.
 
ScottM said:
So could turning off of one's transponder.

In the end both lead to the same condition.
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Huh?

No one in the airspace is there without talking to approach or the tower.

I have never spoken with those controllers about it and I have not heard them say it recently, but I know they do ask for it/have asked specifically in the past.

Frankly, I feel A LOT safer at KISP with transponders OFF than I do at, say, KFRG (class delta a few miles west) or KHWV (uncontrolled a few miles east) with transponders ON.


I might follow up with those folks and call them to ask why they do it.
 
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If there is descending traffic passing overhead that is TCAS equipped then they may be getting a lot of RA's based off of the aircraft that are climbing in the pattern.

Though my bet would be that the radar screen is getting too much clutter on it.
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, if you're in the pattern at a towered airport, you don't need to see traffic outside the D-space in order to be safe.
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You really think so.....I wouldn't bet my life on it. I don't care if you are in B, C, D or IFR you'd better keep your head on a swivel. The controllers are only human.

Just this weekend I was in the pattern at KCHD (Chandler AZ). No less then 10 airplanes waiting to depart; probably six in the pattern (including me in a slow-ass SuperCub) to two parallel runways (right and left traffic) and a low flying balloon busting through the D airspace just to make life fun. I can tell you the controller was running at 110%; I wouldn't have bet my life on his ability to keep me clear of traffic.
 
Baron2PG said:
You really think so.....
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Yes, I really think so. You're in the pattern. They're five miles away and can't enter the tower's airspace without talking to tower. I'll squawk STBY in that case if the controller wants it so they can see all the traffic including that inbound from 6 miles away and keep us sorted out.
 
timrj said:
Huh?
No one in the airspace is there without talking to approach or the tower.
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Never say never. On the two occasions when I lost comm in my taildragger and flew into the Class D to get a light gun landing clearance I was "in the airspace" without talking to anyone and I didn't have a transponder either.
 
gismo said:
Never say never. On the two occasions when I lost comm in my taildragger and flew into the Class D to get a light gun landing clearance I was "in the airspace" without talking to anyone and I didn't have a transponder either.
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That has no relevance here because you would not have a transponder to turn off or on anyway. You would be generating radar returns though in the class Charlie.
 
Just to throw another wrench in the gears for discussion:

With regards to the new 'affordable' traffic notification systems in small GA planes, I wonder how long "turn transponder to stby" will remain in the OSH Arrival NOTAM? It has always been my assumption that they ask everyone to turn their transponders off inside RIPON because the intensity of the traffic would garble the controllers' radar screens. *If* the controllers can filter the returns displayed to only a/c on an assigned IFR code, wouldn't it be beneficial to the VFR a/c arriving at OSH that have the traffic notification systems in their planes to be able to see other traffic? Especially when approaching RIPON where everyone is converging at one point. After RIPON, it shouldn't be too big of a deal as everyone is 'supposed' to be in single file at that point.
 
timrj said:
That has no relevance here because you would not have a transponder to turn off or on anyway. You would be generating radar returns though in the class Charlie.
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I agree it's not terribly germane to this thread but directly related to the snippet of your post I quoted. And FWIW, AFaIK primary returns don't show up on the tower's radar display (BRITE).
 
ScottM said:
How much traffic that has their transponders turned off can you see on that G1000?

Best not to bet your life on that display, especially if you fly around places where there are planes without an electrical system in them.
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which is exactly why I said EVEN in something like a G1000 it makes you see planes you never saw before.


meaning with a TCAS it's even more, and in reality, even more than that!
 
CJones said:
Just to throw another wrench in the gears for discussion:

With regards to the new 'affordable' traffic notification systems in small GA planes, I wonder how long "turn transponder to stby" will remain in the OSH Arrival NOTAM? It has always been my assumption that they ask everyone to turn their transponders off inside RIPON because the intensity of the traffic would garble the controllers' radar screens.
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That was the case when Chicago Center had the airspace. Since February 2008 Milwaukee approach has had that airspace and I don't think it's an issue anymore. I believe it's still in the NOTAM because nobody has taken steps to remove it.
 
jesse said:
I wish I could give you a list but I know I've heard of them over the years. Here is an article about a tower and it mentions they have secondary radar only:
http://www.maldivianairtaxi.com/int...-at-atc&catid=42:flight-ops-general&Itemid=53

It's a fairly common thing I believe. I imagine it might be cheaper to build out secondary-only versus primary?
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I'm pretty certain that when the FCM tower first got a repeater from the MSP TRACON's radar they could only see secondary targets. But I did check today and they've had primary targets for quite a long time. It was also mentioned that the primary display has a lot of false targets and they sometimes have trouble distinguishing between slow airplanes like mine and flocks of birds.
 
gismo said:
I'm pretty certain that when the FCM tower first got a repeater from the MSP TRACON's radar they could only see secondary targets. But I did check today and they've had primary targets for quite a long time. It was also mentioned that the primary display has a lot of false targets and they sometimes have trouble distinguishing between slow airplanes like mine and flocks of birds.
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Was that in the '06-07 time period? That's when I did most of my flying around there and I think I remember them having secondary only.
 
jesse said:
Was that in the '06-07 time period? That's when I did most of my flying around there and I think I remember them having secondary only.
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I'm thinking more like mid to late 90s but the memory is a bit hazy. I also kinda remember something about an upgrade to the BRITE display in the tower about 5 or 10 years ago which might be when they got the ability to see primaries.
 
elmetal said:
which is exactly why I said EVEN in something like a G1000 it makes you see planes you never saw before.


meaning with a TCAS it's even more, and in reality, even more than that!
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Not surprising, but how many of these aircraft pose a hazard? You won't know until you look for them, which is something you should be doing in the first place.

Not saying that traffic-reporting devices other than radio and eyeballs are useless, but... when such a device offers an alert, just as when a controller offers an alert, what's the first thing we do? We look for the traffic.

Looking outside often, using all the glass you have available, seems to work well enough, in the end- after all, having a look is how we determine the severity of the threat and take action, in most cases.

In my (VFR) experience, other than traffic in my blind spot, if I can't see it, it's not a "threat". If they are in my blind spot, it's more likely than not that they can see me, and they will (I hope) maneuver to avoid me. If I can see them, even if they're moving much faster than I am, I can avoid them, just as they can avoid me. If it all happens too fast because the target is small and fast and coming at you out of the sun or whatever, well, I don't imagine having TCAS or a "traffic alert!" from a controller is really going to help much. Let's face it- in VMC, having visual contact is the deciding factor. And acquiring visual contact is why we are supposed to be scanning the sky as much as possible.



I can't rationally argue against traffic alerts from an outside source, but IMHO there's something wrong when you are waiting to look until you are prompted, unless you're flying something with a very limited view outside (like many airliners, which are designed primarily for instrument flight except for takeoffs and landings). Like a lot of gizmos, even the comm radio, traffic-alert technology can breed complacency and distraction when it comes to keeping the "visual" in "visual flight conditions".

I have no experience with onboard transponder-generated alerts, so maybe I'm wrong... maybe most pilots out there using TCAS are just enhancing their already-vigilant scan, just like with FF. Haven't seen much proof of that, but... like I said, I haven't used any "extras" except FF and cab controllers, so maybe my experience doesn't carry much weight.

FWIW, my experience, ,is that so far, I have yet to thank my lucky stars that a controller was keeping a radar lookout on my behalf (although I'm sure there are many who have). However, especially flying with no transponder near a very busy Class B on a regular basis, I have often been very glad I was looking outside as much as possible, and keeping smart habits like not spending much time just above or below clouds, or between them.

And if I have a transponder and am using FF, I do not assume everyone else is. Spending some time aloft without a tx has widened my perspective... and my scan. :D It doesn't bother me that one can legally fly "stealthily" outside controlled areas; that right could be the only thing keeping the foundation of good VFR practice from eroding away completely.

As for the actual thread topic: reducing radar clutter in the pattern seems like a very good idea to me. Between the pilots' and controllers' eyeballs and 2-way comms, separation shouldn't be compromised in such a situation. When aircraft collide or nearly collide in tower-controlled environments, it's not because they weren't squawking ALT, AFAIK.
 
CJones said:
Just to throw another wrench in the gears for discussion:

With regards to the new 'affordable' traffic notification systems in small GA planes, I wonder how long "turn transponder to stby" will remain in the OSH Arrival NOTAM? It has always been my assumption that they ask everyone to turn their transponders off inside RIPON because the intensity of the traffic would garble the controllers' radar screens. *If* the controllers can filter the returns displayed to only a/c on an assigned IFR code, wouldn't it be beneficial to the VFR a/c arriving at OSH that have the traffic notification systems in their planes to be able to see other traffic? Especially when approaching RIPON where everyone is converging at one point. After RIPON, it shouldn't be too big of a deal as everyone is 'supposed' to be in single file at that point.
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I don't think it was a matter of too much stuff on controllers' radar screens - I think it was a matter of the radar not even being able to handle that number of transponder replies in that small of an area. Somewhat similar to how everyone is supposed to turn their DME off while on the ground at ORD - It simply can't handle the sheer number of requests and replies.

Plus, I would imagine that there are a LARGE number of transponder-less airplanes going into OSH as well, so the false sense of security would be in full effect.
 
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