Jack Roush Hard Landing at KOSH

Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Being the new guy on the block, I'll try and use some tact here...

I don't know all the details, but scuttlebutt is that a plane took-off in front of Roush (I don't know with clearance or not).

Possibly (probably) he was instructed by ATC to slow down, and was trying to help out with the busy post-show traffic, then he made an easy mistake of trying to help too much and waited too long to go-around and got behind the power curve.

Been done before and will be done again by better pilots than I'll ever be. There are details that are obviously missing, so I'll not pass judgment on this one. Perhaps others should too...

Chad
1300 TT
400 Tailwheel
 
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Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

I'm not sure the FSDO examiner is going to want to be the one to sign him off. In fact, I don't think it matter at what FSDO. The guy has tanked 3 aircraft, an Aircam, a P51, and now this.

There is always a way to make the guy fail. Really.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Not saying he didn't screw up, but I'm not one to know if he did or not, nor is anyone on this board.

As Jesse said: don't know the guy, haven't flown with him, wasn't there.

Well there's a busted Premier in the dirt with blood all over the panel. I think it's safe to say that he screwed up. I'm trying to imagine any scenario that ends with "nope he did it just right" and nothing's coming to mind.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Did not know he wrecked a P-51. That is just a crime. When did that happen?

David
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Did not know he wrecked a P-51. That is just a crime. When did that happen?

David
Roush, an experienced pilot, suffered serious injuries in a plane crash near Talladega, Ala., in 2002. He was flying his P-51 aircraft when it crashed into a lake. Roush was unconscious and would have drowned, but he was pulled from the water by Larry Hicks, a retired marine who lived nearby and saw the crash.
Ref: http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cup/news/story?id=5415476 (site runs an audible advertisement)
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

His previous accident was in an air-cam. I believe he clipped powerlines while flying low. It was not in a P-51. The ESPN article is incorrect.

This is Aviations front porch, not its back fence ...
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Being the new guy on the block, I'll try and use some tact here...

I don't know all the details, but scuttlebutt is that a plane took-off in front of Roush (I don't know with clearance or not).

Possibly (probably) he was instructed by ATC to slow down, and was trying to help out with the busy post-show traffic, then he made an easy mistake of trying to help too much and waited too long to go-around and got behind the power curve.

Been done before and will be done again by better pilots than I'll ever be. There are details that are obviously missing, so I'll not pass judgment on this one. Perhaps others should too...

Chad
1300 TT
400 Tailwheel

Welcome to POA Chad!
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

His previous accident was in an air-cam. I believe he clipped powerlines while flying low. It was not in a P-51. The ESPN article is incorrect.

This is Aviations front porch, not its back fence ...

It appears they got two accidents involved in the same story. The P-51 wreck was in the Talladega, AL area.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

WAIT, what???

The press got some stuff mixed up in a story about an aviation accident?? Nah, you're nuts. That NEVER happens......






:rolleyes:
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

"Too low and slow" according to the article. Basic flying skills were lacking in this one. A go around should have been performed.

I'm not sure that a go around would have been successful. If he really was behind the power curve (and we really don't have much for facts at this point) without enough altitude to lower the AoA, just adding a bunch of power may have resulted in making the crash more severe.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

While busting a transport aircraft like this is unusual - so is the situation at OSH. So I'm willing to wait before judging.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

His previous accident was in an air-cam. I believe he clipped powerlines while flying low. It was not in a P-51. The ESPN article is incorrect.

This is Aviations front porch, not its back fence ...
:dunno: I cited the ref...if the information is incorrect, it's on them. The comment about the back fence really wasn't needed.
 
Those photos on TMZ are amazing. It certainly seems he was not in control at the end. Also, that guy on the field had to have damn near pooped himself when he was running trying to get away from the jet!
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Bust up a plane, get condemnation of all kinds; bust up a car, status quo. Stuff happens. Lighten up.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

This crash is a shame...
One of the critical ares of flying large turbine aircraft is the need for setting up a stable approach to landing, wings level, power appropriate, airspeed nailed on the bug setting, etc. because of the lag in spool up time if large power/attitude changes are needed...
One if the critical areas when flying into events like Airventure is the need to often make large, rapid deviations because of other aircraft doing something unexpected...
Looks like Jack ran out of airspeed, altitude, and options, all at the same time...

Having been flying in to the Big O before it was the Big O (Rockford) and multiple times since, over the years I have had a couple of what I felt were close calls... Because of that, I no longer fly into these events as the risks are just astronomical... Making these risk versus reward decisions are all part of becoming an old pilot...

denny-o
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

I say let the guy bust up his own airplane.
Without getting into the specifics of this case, I don't think that the attitude evinced in Jesse's statement is good for GA. Every time someone crashes a GA plane, it makes headlines, often nationally, and far beyond the level it would have been given the damage/injury incurred had it been an automotive accident. That drives the FAA to tighten regulations and airport neighbors to restrict or close GA airports, both of which impact the flying of those not directly involved in the wreck. In addition, every accident adds to the statistics which insurance companies use in part to set rates, and that means all of us pay more to insure our planes. Put that all together, and my tolerance level for stupidity/incompetence in light GA flying goes way down, because I'm not happy paying in regulations, restrictions, and cash because other folks can't or won't fly safely.
 
I understand a desire to "close ranks", to give a pilot the benefit of the doubt, but a pilot who crashes a plane on landing, in ordinary weather conditions, and with no mechanical failure (which we're only presuming at this point), has badly screwed up something that he's not expected to screw up. And, in this case, he's done it in a very visible manner, and given us all a black eye.

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be rushing to his defense.

I'm also not sure why I should try to compare this to a car crash. Car drivers aren't given the level of training, nor expected to exhibit the level of professionalism that a pilot of a bizjet is expected to. And car drivers spend every minute of their drive in close proximity to other cars, whereas a pilot really only has to get it completely right for brief periods of time during a long flight.
-harry
 
This might provide some insight:

A link to the audio, where you can almost hear the links being added to the accident chain:

http://www.avweb.com/other/oshcrash.mp3

One controller's (not at OSH) insight:

Sounds to me like it goes:

Pilot: "Is 6JR gonna be all right with this?"
Controller: "Affirmative."
Pilot: "I don't think so."

That's shortly followed by what sound like instructions for the Premier as he attempted to execute a go-around.

Speculation here at OSH is that there may have been a departure on the runway that was too close for comfort, and 6JR stalled during the go-around attempt.

As a controller, having seen some fast singles and light twins have trouble with that short approach to 18R, I never did it with jets. They either went to 27, or I worked out a way for them to make a more normal approach to 18R.

=======================================================

Last time I went to OSH, what happened to me is the fella in front landed on my colored dot; leaving me to go around on very short final or pull back the power and land behind him much shorter than expected.

Me thinks there's more to this than simple pilot err.

Best,

Dave
 
I listened to one of the feeds that day for quite awhile. There was a lot of traffic and I heard a lot of go-arounds issued by the controller. I know that it is quite a zoo and that many go-around commands may have been normal.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

He's only actually crashed 2 planes, the Premier and the Aircam. I believe he had some taxi incident with a P51, but its tough to find out more than that about it. The crash in Alabama was incorrectly reported in most places as being a P51, when it was really the Aircam he crashed, and was luckily saved by a Marine.
 
I understand a desire to "close ranks", to give a pilot the benefit of the doubt, but a pilot who crashes a plane on landing, in ordinary weather conditions, and with no mechanical failure (which we're only presuming at this point), has badly screwed up something that he's not expected to screw up. And, in this case, he's done it in a very visible manner, and given us all a black eye.

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be rushing to his defense.

I don't think you are supposed to be rushing to his defense - Obviously, he screwed up. However, I talked to the Bockelmans yesterday, and it happened just a few rows from their airplane and Sharon saw it. It sounded like he was trying to slow down so they could squeeze someone in front of him, and got slow and crashed. So, yeah he screwed up, but not because he's necessarily a bad pilot, but because he tried to help out the controllers operationally. Problem is, he tried a little too hard and stalled his plane.

So yeah, he screwed up. But for the rest of us to talk smack would only serve to keep this in the "news" longer.
 
I listened to one of the feeds that day for quite awhile. There was a lot of traffic and I heard a lot of go-arounds issued by the controller. I know that it is quite a zoo and that many go-around commands may have been normal.

Lots and lots of go-around's today as well.
 
Oh for ifni's sake, thousands of pilots flew into Oshkosh this week. Thousands flew in last year. Many, many had events they would not normally encounter, wake turbulence, unexpected traffic, you name it. Thousands landed safely anyway.

If the guy was flying an aircraft that was so difficult to manage he should have skills commensurate. He should have been able to do a go-around. If I cracked up my airplane because I unexpectedly had to go around on a clear day you guys would lambast me, and rightly so.

Just because it's Oshkosh doesn't give anyone an excuse to screw the pooch.
 
Just because it's Oshkosh doesn't give anyone an excuse to screw the pooch.

On the flip side I cannot remember a year without an incident/accident during the Oshkosh fly-in period.

IF it had been an unknown Dr in his Citation we would all understand how he was having to deal with some very unusual circumstances in making that approach.

Now the fact that JR was returing from taking the P-51 back to YIP after appearing earlier in the days airshow could also add a little fatigue to the mix.

In heavy traffic, and it doesn;t get much busier than Oshkosh when they open the PM gates, things happen.
 
... So, yeah he screwed up, but not because he's necessarily a bad pilot, but because he tried to help out the controllers operationally. Problem is, he tried a little too hard and stalled his plane...
Okay, and I don't mean to be argumentative, but what I hear from this is that some pilots operate so close to the margins of competence that any small deviation from the norm is likely to send them over the edge.

Isn't this really what we see at Oshkosh all the time? A convergence of pilots large enough that the subset with marginal skills is well represented, and that subset gets along just fine when they're inside their comfort zone at home and the demands are low, but today they're venturing far afield and working in an environment that has higher expectations than they're usually confronted with. And every year somebody demonstrates that they're not up to the task.

And, by the way, I'm not sure I understand the "but what about the thousands who landed without crashing..." argument, which I guess is sort of a "why are we focusing on the negatives, instead of celebrating the positives", because landing an airplane isn't supposed to be a death-defying stunt, it's supposed to be something that we can all do routinely without incident.
-harry
 
A side from a very small minority of pilots simultaneous take offs and landings on the same runway, the parallel runway and the crossing runway with no more than 1/2 mile behind the plane in front while minimizing communications is not normal operating parameters.
 
If you can't comply, or might have problems complying, with directions given to you by a controller you say "Unable."

If you accept the direction, the controller has to assume that it is within your ability to do so, safely.

When in doubt...
 
It's easy to second guess when you're not the PIC. I did the same thing there trying to work things out and fit in. I should have gone around, and instead pulled back power to get behind a maroon that landed short; I had another plane right behind me and they had traffic on a crossing runway.

If you don't think a controller directing someone to cut in front of you on short final can mess you up; you're a much better pilot than 95% of those flying into OSH. When flying in, I certainly don't expect a stabilized approach, but jamming someone in in front on me when I've already slowed isn't a good thing to do.

We'll see what NTSB thinks of all of it.

Best,

Dave
 
If you can't comply, or might have problems complying, with directions given to you by a controller you say "Unable."

If you accept the direction, the controller has to assume that it is within your ability to do so, safely.

When in doubt...

All true.

Sometimes easier said than done, though, when external pressures like being at OSH come into play.

Don't misunderstand - barring a mechanical failure that left him with less performance than he had right to expect - he screwed up. But the isssue is probably less with his physical airplane handling skills than with his risk management and situational awareness skills.

OR, to mis-quote "Top Gun", his ego's writin' checks his airplane can't cash.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

The comment about the back fence really wasn't needed.

sorry if you were offended. should have kept it to myself. The speed at which the internet can tear someone down was in the headlines last week and is still resonating with me. Also the amateur NTSB investigations rub me the wrong way (and God knows I've chimed in on them around the hanger coffee pot).

I just knew for a fact that the crash referred to clipping a power line in an air-cam so I offered the correction before the tally of airplanes he'd brought down qualified him as an ace.

I really enjoy PoA and if it ever gets too ruthless I guess I can always sign off. Perhaps Rouch will turn all this up on a google search and he can defend himself after he heals.

Aviation is an interesting tribe. There is legitimate value in a dispassionate analysis of every accident. But there is something more in play I think, something human. We need to assure ourselves that couldn't happen to us, and so the court rules summarily -- dumb guy --
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

TW- It didn't get to the point of offending me, simply pointing out it was a bit "ruthless". Apology accepted.

As for the source being wrong- it is the internet and some sources are better than others. I thought ESPN was one of the better ones. Live & learn.
 
But the isssue is probably less with his physical airplane handling skills than with his risk management and situational awareness skills.

And that was my point.

I wasn't there. I know it's pure insanity at OSH, but everyone knows that going in. Stuff happens split second, especially in a jet in the landing. I'm just glad he survived, and nobody on the ground got hurt.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

Having been flying in to the Big O before it was the Big O (Rockford) and multiple times since, over the years I have had a couple of what I felt were close calls... Because of that, I no longer fly into these events as the risks are just astronomical... Making these risk versus reward decisions are all part of becoming an old pilot...

denny-o

The risks of flying into OSH are "astronomical"?

Uh, no. Been there, done that too, many times. We just got back from OSH 2010, and it was a cluster-f*ck, but not because of the "danger" of flying in. (8" of rain made it "Sloshkosh '10". More on that later.)

It was Mary's turn to be PIC into OSH this year, and the arrival procedure was simpler -- and safer -- than flying into any local pancake breakfast. Follow the NOTAM, listen to ATC, land the plane. In fact, she flew the exact approach that Roush flew, and it's easy as pie -- if you don't get too slow turning base-to-final.

Face it, he screwed the pooch. Maybe someone cut him off, maybe ATC asked him to slow down -- but you never, EVER let the controller fly the plane. Fly the plane, go around, side-step, buzz the tower -- do what you have to do -- but don't bend metal. He crashed into a ditch that 48-hours earlier was packed FULL of vintage aircraft that had been parked there jtemporarily while the grounds dried out. Imagine the conflagration that could have resulted?

Still, he has my deepest sympathy. The bottom line is he is living through every pilot's worst nightmare -- screwing up in front of 10,000 pilots at Oshkosh. I hope he recovers quickly, and flies again, older and wiser.
 
On the flip side I cannot remember a year without an incident/accident during the Oshkosh fly-in period.

Take the average rate of GA accident/incident, multiply it by the number of aircraft converging on Oshkosh, and you get a couple accidents/incidents.
 
Re: Jack Roush, NASCAR crashes second plane

It was Mary's turn to be PIC into OSH this year, and the arrival procedure was simpler -- and safer -- than flying into any local pancake breakfast. Follow the NOTAM, listen to ATC, land the plane. In fact, she flew the exact approach that Roush flew, and it's easy as pie -- if you don't get too slow turning base-to-final.

Face it, he screwed the pooch. Maybe someone cut him off, maybe ATC asked him to slow down -- but you never, EVER let the controller fly the plane. Fly the plane, go around, side-step, buzz the tower -- do what you have to do -- but don't bend metal. He crashed into a ditch that 48-hours earlier was packed FULL of vintage aircraft that had been parked there jtemporarily while the grounds dried out. Imagine the conflagration that could have resulted?

With all respect, Jay, you fly the hardest plane to screw up in the history of aviation. I find your (and pretty much everyone else's) evaluation to be out of place.

As with any incident, it is very easy for outsiders to make determinations as to what happened. Those outsiders typically:

1) Weren't there/didn't see it
2) Have never flown the aircraft involved
3) Don't even (and never have) flown an aircraft even remotely similar in characteristics
4) Don't know the guy
5) Haven't flown with him

A bunch of Cherokee pilots condemning Roush is humorous to me. Once again, I'm not saying he didn't screw up, but y'all should lay off it a bit. Flying into Osh is a cluster, it always is. But anyone who flies in anything hotter than a Cherokee or a 182 is at a disadvantage because the slow planes (that are operating well within their normal airspeeds) are forced to fly slower and less comfortable. The 90 kts I'm supposed to fly at once I get past the point where 2300 ft and 1800 ft people merge into once is below my blue line, and I have a slow blue line relative to most twins. When was the last time you heard about a Cherokee getting too slow coming into Osh and having a stall/spin or other crash? And who're the first people to place blame? The people who fly slow planes.

When you fly into a Bravo airport and you're the slow guy intermingled with a bunch of transport aircraft and the occasional Citation or Lear, approach spaces everyone out to give you closer to the traffic ahead and keep the behind traffic further away so everyone can maintain comfortable speeds. In Osh, the slow people are the ones who set the speed, and there is no extra spacing available to help the faster people.

I seem to recall some saying about glass houses that applies here...
 
Have to agree a bit with AzTruck- I tried flying in there once with my Extra. Was hanging on the prop at 90K following a DC-3, and still eating up the distance quickly. Found myself doing S-turns, slow flight, and low altitude, and with the nose pitched up, unable to see between turns. It was an accident waiting to happen, and ultimately did a go around. A few years ago, an airline pilot found himself in the same situation in an Extra, only he stalled and spun, killing himself and his pax. Some planes are less forgiving, and the envelope for a safe landing is a lot smaller than in a Cherokee or Cessna. I only drive to OSH now.
 
Last time I checked they had special procedures and altitude for faster aircraft. Since I never actually made it to the show I didn't read the NOTAM that carefully this year.
 
When I went to OSH, I flew into Appleton and took the free shuttle down to OSH. Much less stressful.
 
I flew once VFR into Osh, once VFR out of OSH, once IFR into OSH, and once IFR out of Osh, and now (as of this years Sloshkosh) a bunch of bus trips in and out of Osh from Waupaca (a really nice field with inexpensive fuel).
 
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