Length of aerobatic lessons?

whifferdill said:
Thank god...and I hope nobody actually listened to him since he clearly didn't know anything about acro...never seen a zero G barrell roll. :) 'Ballistic' roll maybe, but those are a good way to dump oil all over the belly if you don't have inverted oil. Truth be told, this airplane (like almost any airplane) could be successfully (aileron) rolled. But if you're going to take it upon yourself to perform acro in an airplane not approved for aerobatics, you better be experienced and knowledgeable about exactly what you're doing. I have a feeling his "zero G barrel roll" would have ended up an "accidentally very high speed, high G barrell roll". :eek:
Click to expand...

Here is what can happen when you have a non-acro pilot in a non-acro approved plane thinking his last name is Yonkin or Franklin...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20070427X00463&ntsbno=ATL07FA077&akey=1

Pity the fool took 4 other people with him...:mad:

Chris
 
Last edited:
There was a man here in Alpine who flew a Bonanza and rolled it one day over the airport -at a low altitude - I don't know what went wrong but it went very wrong as he killed himself. Sometimes in town when I tell folks that I'm getting an aerobatic airplane they say - Well, gosh, you remember George? and I have to explain that what I will be doing is very different from what happened to George. And then they just smile and say - be real careful. I nod and smile.
I don't know what the N number was of the plane or I'd look up the NTSB report. But a friend of mine at the airport saw it happen so I think I'll just ask him.
 
Jeanie said:
There was a man here in Alpine who flew a Bonanza and rolled it one day over the airport -at a low altitude - I don't know what went wrong but it went very wrong as he killed himself. Sometimes in town when I tell folks that I'm getting an aerobatic airplane they say - Well, gosh, you remember George? and I have to explain that what I will be doing is very different from what happened to George. And then they just smile and say - be real careful. I nod and smile.
I don't know what the N number was of the plane or I'd look up the NTSB report. But a friend of mine at the airport saw it happen so I think I'll just ask him.
Click to expand...

The usual newbie low altitude roll into a crash scenario barring structural failure almost invariably involves applied back pressure too early between inverted and the second knife edge position resulting in a constantly increasing nose down dish out into ground contact.
 
Dudley Henriques said:
The usual newbie low altitude roll into a crash scenario barring structural failure almost invariably involves applied back pressure too early between inverted and the second knife edge position resulting in a constantly increasing nose down dish out into ground contact.
Click to expand...



just like this aerobatic wannabe did in a 172 (a poorly performed aileron roll degenerating into a SplitS). Probably pulled +4 Gs on pullout. Luckily, the wings didn't depart the airframe.
 
Last edited:
biskeyboy said:
just like this aerobatic wannabe did in a 172
Click to expand...

This clip demonstrates a classic example of why non aerobatic airplanes should NOT be rolled. In the case of a 172, you have a combination here of an extremely slow roll rate, high roll inertia, a WAY too low nose attitude considering the aforementioned, and the predictable result; a split S entered with WAY too much airspeed followed by a rolling pullout; a VERY dangerous situation.
Dudley Henriques
 
You knew what was coming when he only pitched up 10 degrees before rolling...:mad2:
 
And the biggest problem is that though these fool(s) didn't rip the wings off and die (which, according to your temperment is either a good or a bad thing:mad2:), they have left a badly abused 172 in the fleet that may come apart on some poor pilot who is doing nothing but flying thru some chop...
Unless of course they fessed up to the A&P-IA-Owner about the botched manauver. Yea, right!

Videos like this tick me off no end!

Chris (who's daddy told him airplanes bite fools...)
 
Dudley Henriques said:
The usual newbie low altitude roll into a crash scenario barring structural failure almost invariably involves applied back pressure too early between inverted and the second knife edge position resulting in a constantly increasing nose down dish out into ground contact.
Click to expand...

~~~~~~~~ Well, I don't know what George did. I suspect it's just what you say and the problem was he was in a Bonanza A36 I think....

Pilots who have poor judgment make grief for us other pilots. But that's the story of the world I spose.
 
Dudley Henriques said:
This clip demonstrates a classic example of why non aerobatic airplanes should NOT be rolled. In the case of a 172, you have a combination here of an extremely slow roll rate, high roll inertia, a WAY too low nose attitude considering the aforementioned, and the predictable result; a split S entered with WAY too much airspeed followed by a rolling pullout; a VERY dangerous situation.
Dudley Henriques
Click to expand...

~~~~~~~ Aren't 172s known for their stability? That is their disinclination to be in any position other than straight and level? No wonder he had a hard time .... that and the fact that he was farking around the way he shouldn't.
CFIs just can't get proper decision making thru to some folks I spose. Makes me think of the saying: Here Bubba hold my beer, Watch this
 
Jeanie said:
~~~~~~~ Aren't 172s known for their stability? That is their disinclination to be in any position other than straight and level? No wonder he had a hard time .... that and the fact that he was farking around the way he shouldn't.
CFIs just can't get proper decision making thru to some folks I spose. Makes me think of the saying: Here Bubba hold my beer, Watch this
Click to expand...

It depends on the CFI. You're right in that some instructors unfortunately fail miserably in not instilling the proper attitude adjustments necessary in many students to aid them in transitioning from a non flying mindset into a professional aviation/pilot mindset.
This is one of the ongoing problems prevalent in the flight instruction community and has been a subject of interest in the safety community for many years.
 
Well, I have had a couple of CFIs who were very young men and frankly, they could fly and they could instruct to a degree but they didn't seem to have sufficient life experience to be "wise". Maybe that's part of the problem?
 
Jeanie said:
Well, I have had a couple of CFIs who were very young men and frankly, they could fly and they could instruct to a degree but they didn't seem to have sufficient life experience to be "wise". Maybe that's part of the problem?
Click to expand...

The issue is complex :)
 
Jeanie said:
I don't know what the N number was of the plane or I'd look up the NTSB report. But a friend of mine at the airport saw it happen so I think I'll just ask him.
Click to expand...
Jeanie, you can do a search based on the airport on the NTSB site here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

I found your Bo roll accident on the NTSB site using the city of Alpine, TX as criteria.
 
B2Soar said:
I have to put a plug in here for Steve Wolf at www.wingoveraerobatics.com. I flew with Steve for the 10 hour basic aerobatics course and it was the absolute most fun that I ever spent my money on. Their Pitts S-2B is a flying dream. Steve and that Pitts made doing every maneuver on the list seem so easy and fun. Steve would ask pretty often how I was doing up there? If I said great we would go on and on. If I said good, he would ask if I was ready to take a break. He in no way wanted to mess up my comfort level. We did the 10 hours in 12 flights in 6 days. Plus about 20 hours of ground instruction and hanger talk. Most of it was absolutely fasinating to me.

Steve's wife is Kathy Hirtz who is a brain specialist MD. Kathy met Steve after she was refered to him when she asked Patty Wagstaff who she recommended for aerobatic lessons.

They used to live in Oregon but are now in sunny Florida. If anyone is interested in a good instructor for upsets and/or aerobatics, I can highly recommend Steve Wolf.

Rick
Click to expand...
I just came across this thread. I have tell you, I took an Unusual Attitude/Spin Recovery course with Steve Wolf 2 years ago. Actually, I had to split it up into 2 sessions. Did one in late 2010 and the 2nd half in January 2011. This course saved my life! Last week I flew VFR inadvertently into IMC at night (see this thread: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57161&page=3 ) and broke out of the clouds at less than 500 ft MSL in a nose-low steep bank after having entered into a spiral. At night. Miraculously I was able to recover the plane immediately and avoid flying into the ground. That was only because of having taken this course. Right now my "testimonial" is on Steve & Kathy's site.
 
DogDaddy said:
I just came across this thread. I have tell you, I took an Unusual Attitude/Spin Recovery course with Steve Wolf 2 years ago. Actually, I had to split it up into 2 sessions. Did one in late 2010 and the 2nd half in January 2011. This course saved my life! Last week I flew VFR inadvertently into IMC at night (see this thread: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57161&page=3 ) and broke out of the clouds at less than 500 ft MSL in a nose-low steep bank after having entered into a spiral. At night. Miraculously I was able to recover the plane immediately and avoid flying into the ground. That was only because of having taken this course. Right now my "testimonial" is on Steve & Kathy's site.
Click to expand...
..and so you conclude that you do not need an instrument rating.... :dunno:
 
Now I understand why some other countries require an IR for night flying. (So I've heard.)
My flight school just got a GAT II full motion simulator. I will be doing as much instrument training as I can.
I also will be getting more thorough wx briefings before every flight. One (free) phone call to WX BRIEF probably would have convinced me not to make that flight. Just because the airport itself is still VFR doesn't mean the entire area is.
 
Last edited:
DogDaddy said:
Now I understand why some other countries require an IR for night flying. (So I've heard.)
My flight school just got a GAT II full motion simulator. I will be doing as much instrument training as I can.
I also will be getting more thorough wx briefings before every flight. One (free) phone call to WX BRIEF probably would have convinced me not to make that flight. Just because the airport itself is still VFR doesn't mean the entire area is.
Click to expand...
Amen!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top