Ever Have a Student "Choke" Just Prior to the Checkride??

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ruthsindelar

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Ruth
I have a student who was well qualified to pass her check ride. She flies very well and has a lot of real world and actual IMC experience. We went out a few days ago for her last lesson (simulated check ride). It was 2,000 overcast with 10 miles visibility. Perfect practice in actual conditions. First approach went well and I had her go miss so that ATC would continue to give us multiple approaches. On the miss, she nosed up too high (15 degrees+ pitch up & 40 degrees of bank). I let her continue to fly as long as I felt prudent. After 10-15 seconds, I took the controls. We settled down & shot another approach. Similar outcome. On the last approach, we circled to land & she lined up for the wrong runway. Ugh!

My question is this......I am very confident that she can/will pass her check ride but that is not the only goal that we are working towards. I want her to safe & confident in the cockpit. When we fly next, I am quite sure she will meet the FAA standards. How much longer would you work with a student like this? Would you sign her off when you are confident that she can meet the FAA standards or would you insist on additional lessons until we are sure what happened this week would not happen again?

This is the first time I have seen her overcontrol like this (in over 50 hours flying together). How would you decide when the risk of this happening again was gone?
 
ruthsindelar said:
I have a student who was well qualified to pass her check ride. She flies very well and has a lot of real world and actual IMC experience. We went out a few days ago for her last lesson (simulated check ride). It was 2,000 overcast with 10 miles visibility. Perfect practice in actual conditions. First approach went well and I had her go miss so that ATC would continue to give us multiple approaches. On the miss, she nosed up too high (15 degrees+ pitch up & 40 degrees of bank). I let her continue to fly as long as I felt prudent. After 10-15 seconds, I took the controls. We settled down & shot another approach. Similar outcome. On the last approach, we circled to land & she lined up for the wrong runway. Ugh!

My question is this......I am very confident that she can/will pass her check ride but that is not the only goal that we are working towards. I want her to safe & confident in the cockpit. When we fly next, I am quite sure she will meet the FAA standards. How much longer would you work with a student like this? Would you sign her off when you are confident that she can meet the FAA standards or would you insist on additional lessons until we are sure what happened this week would not happen again?

This is the first time I have seen her overcontrol like this (in over 50 hours flying together). How would you decide when the risk of this happening again was gone?
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Ruth if its any consultation,
Most of my students have there worst flight the last time we fly... just before the ride...its something I almost expect anymore....some just get nervous

You have to confidently feel that they are truly safe , will make the right decision(s), harbors a good mental model, and will recognize when something isnt right...thats usually the tough one. I would de-emphasize the actual checkride and focus more on how your student will fly in the real world...when your happy with that and can sleep at night ...give em a go...

Another good idea is to send them up with another "stranger" CFI prior to the checkride...this can be re-assuring to both parties and give your student a big confidence boost when they prove themself in front of a different pair of eyes.
 
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How did you handle the post-flight critique/debrief? What did she think about her misfires? How is her confidence level now?

ruthsindelar said:
I have a student who was well qualified to pass her check ride. She flies very well and has a lot of real world and actual IMC experience. We went out a few days ago for her last lesson (simulated check ride). It was 2,000 overcast with 10 miles visibility. Perfect practice in actual conditions. First approach went well and I had her go miss so that ATC would continue to give us multiple approaches. On the miss, she nosed up too high (15 degrees+ pitch up & 40 degrees of bank). I let her continue to fly as long as I felt prudent. After 10-15 seconds, I took the controls. We settled down & shot another approach. Similar outcome. On the last approach, we circled to land & she lined up for the wrong runway. Ugh!

My question is this......I am very confident that she can/will pass her check ride but that is not the only goal that we are working towards. I want her to safe & confident in the cockpit. When we fly next, I am quite sure she will meet the FAA standards. How much longer would you work with a student like this? Would you sign her off when you are confident that she can meet the FAA standards or would you insist on additional lessons until we are sure what happened this week would not happen again?

This is the first time I have seen her overcontrol like this (in over 50 hours flying together). How would you decide when the risk of this happening again was gone?
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I tried two keep the post flight debrief truthful but positive. She was very disappointed but agreed with the decision to postpone the ride.

We are flying again tomorrow morning. Looks like it might be actual again which I am hoping for. I love the idea of her going up with another instructor to have another set of eyes evaluate her performance.

Any other thoughts?
 
I agree students get nervous before a checkride. My latest IR student was the opposite. He would get bored unless the pressure was on, weird. No pressure he would bust altitude and heading, miss calls. In actual with me bitching and moaning he was right on.

One thing from your description (please take this as constructive criticism) wouldn't it have been better to try a verbal correction before taking the controls?

Joe
 
ruthsindelar said:
I have a student who was well qualified to pass her check ride. She flies very well and has a lot of real world and actual IMC experience. We went out a few days ago for her last lesson (simulated check ride). It was 2,000 overcast with 10 miles visibility. Perfect practice in actual conditions. First approach went well and I had her go miss so that ATC would continue to give us multiple approaches. On the miss, she nosed up too high (15 degrees+ pitch up & 40 degrees of bank). I let her continue to fly as long as I felt prudent. After 10-15 seconds, I took the controls. We settled down & shot another approach. Similar outcome. On the last approach, we circled to land & she lined up for the wrong runway. Ugh!

My question is this......I am very confident that she can/will pass her check ride but that is not the only goal that we are working towards. I want her to safe & confident in the cockpit. When we fly next, I am quite sure she will meet the FAA standards. How much longer would you work with a student like this? Would you sign her off when you are confident that she can meet the FAA standards or would you insist on additional lessons until we are sure what happened this week would not happen again?

This is the first time I have seen her overcontrol like this (in over 50 hours flying together). How would you decide when the risk of this happening again was gone?
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If I may, I'm not a CFII. However, the night before my IFR checkride
I went up with my CFII for a little tuneup. I was bad, I was worse than
bad, not unsafe, but definitely not PTS criteria. My CFII was surprised
and concerned.

The next day I took the checkride and passed. Pretty much nailed it.
Of course, it helped that it was one of those rare summer days with
unlimited visibility, cool temps, light winds, and zero bumps/thermals
the entire day.

In other words, I got my bad performance out of my system during
the practice.

I'm no Yeager, I fly within my abilities, and my CFII was confident of
that aspect of my flying.
 
I'm not overly surprised by the pre-checkride brain cramp, but the severity is a bit troubling. As a sim instructor, I found that such anomalies were usually attributable to the absence or breakdown of fundamentals, and that reverting to "IFR Attitude Flying 101" for part of a period was more valuable than continuing to hammer the advanced procedures.

The missus (of 48 years, bless her heart) is convinced that women are more subject to physical and intellectual performance swings due to hormonal/physiological stuff. Her advanced special-education training and many years of X-word, cryptograms, Wheel of Fortune and other puzzles have caused her to be able to detect what she calls her "smart days" and her "dumb days". Before her knees went south, she had the same reactions to her tennis game, but I can't remember if she played better on dumb days or smart days.

This observation is not intended to be pejorative or suggest/imply anything about pilot skills or abilities.
 
Areeda said:
One thing from your description (please take this as constructive criticism) wouldn't it have been better to try a verbal correction before taking the controls?

Joe
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Yes, I agree that a verbal caution, in general is best. The day prior to the check ride, I personally prefer to give the student as much "latitude" as possible to catch their own mistakes. In 24 hours, they won't have me in the right seat to help out. Can they catch their errors on their own. Some errors are minor but some could endanger the safety of the flight. Can they correct the critical errors on their own?

I appreciate the discussion. Thankyou for the helpful advice.
 
This stuff happens close to the ride due to nerves. The question I ask myself in this situation is whether the error is unusual for this trainee or whether it's something the trainee has had problems with repeatedly. One brain cramp isn't going to stop me from signing the trainee off, saying, "OK, good to get that out of your system now rather than on the checkride." OTOH, if it's an area that's been weak all along for that trainee, the ride is off until we get it right on a regular basis. As that commercial during the NFL games says, "Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they can't get it wrong." While my IR trainees are not professionals, I do want them to get it all right at least 90% of the time.

And as noted by others, I probably would have just said, "Attitude!" or, better yet, just "Scan everything!" before the situation got to the point where it was necessary for me to take the controls.
 
Everyone handles "tests" different.

I've got a friend who used to be a DE. Had a young guy come for his PP, a bit into the oral, he blew a simple question which shook him. This led to more wrong answers and getting more shook up. Finally the DE asked him, "Son, what is your last name". The DE said he looked at him with a blank look and said "I can't remember"......

marc
 
Ron Levy said:
And as noted by others, I probably would have just said, "Attitude!" or, better yet, just "Scan everything!" before the situation got to the point where it was necessary for me to take the controls.
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Ron & Everyone....

Thanks for your replies. I flew with my student this AM and she nailed everything! Very focused and "on task". I'm signing her off and feel much better about doing so knowing that others have had students do similar.

Ron, I like your suggestion of saying you are glad they got that out of the way before the check ride. In retrospect, I should have share "scan everything....". Would have been much more helpful to her. She worked so hard today. I am very proud of her.

Thanks again....
 
Day before my IR I descended before the FAF, not after. Just before I was about to plant the plane inside the cooling towers at Limerick Nuclear Plant my instructor helpfully asked if we had reached FAF.

It was a screwup of major proportions. Stupid, and potentially deadly. I was absolutely beside myself the rest of the flight. He signed me off for the checkride.

I think Ron's thoughts capture the situation pretty well. My instructor had flown with me enough to know that it was an uncharacteristic mistake.

And one I have NEVER EVER come close to making again. What's that about learning from experience??????
 
I am one of those students who choked before the checkride. I actually had diarrhea and almost threw up for the 2 days prior to my IFR checkride. I know exactly why...perceived expectations of performance can and will diminish actual performance.

My frustration with CFIs is they only concern themselves with the here and now rather than taking a holistic view of things. I do not expect the CFI to be a psychologist but since so much of being a CFI is about FOI I would like to see they also concern themselves with obstacles to learning.

This is not about finding fault or blame. This is about supporting the student to overcome/work through their own faults. Isn't that what being a CFI is ultimately about? Once coming to that point, a CFI would adopt a method to achieve that goal. The CFI taking the controls is such a downer to the student...a de facto expression to the student that he has failed. "Talking him down" would be a better method. That allows affirmation of his skills without deflating his ego.

I am not a CFI.
 
Yes.. I had a student that was pushing to take the check ride.. scheduled the DPE twice without the instructors (my) permission. All maneuvers were covered and could be accomplished to PTS standards.

On the day of the check ride, the student could not complete a no spoiler approach to save his life.. let alone save the check ride.

A pink slip, 3 instructors and 50 approaches, and the student could not put together a consistant no spoiler approach from one pattern to the next.. let alone week to week.

He blamed all 3 instructors, they were incompetent.. and stormed off. Never to be seen again. We have all had multiple students pass the check ride and perform no spoiler approaches to the DPEs satisfaction.

The student developed a mental block and could not get past it.
All through his training, he was one you would identify with the defense mechanism "Rationalization".
 
Actually, I choked on my PPL.

Screwed up from the word go.....and I'm an Airborne Ranger with 4 combat tours under my belt.....sorta used to pressure....

Anyway, just totally lost it. The examiner stopped me and said we should just call it a day.

I was despondent, talked to my CFI who said, "hey, it happens".

Re-took the test a month later...aced it. Same examiner. He said it happens quite a lot.

Looking forward to my IFR testing in the next couple months....yes, it will be the same examiner.
 
Richard said:
The CFI taking the controls is such a downer to the student...a de facto expression to the student that he has failed. "Talking him down" would be a better method. That allows affirmation of his skills without deflating his ego.
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During all of my training, and I've been fortunate enough to have the same CFI for both PPL and IFR, my CFI has NEVER taken the controls....and frankly, at times I've found myself in some unusual attitudes....his comment...."and that's how we get into a spin, now how are you going to get out?" The man is pure gold....

I flew with one other CFI one time, who grabbed the controls twice....I told him he was fired (remember who's paying-- does your ego good to remember who the boss really is).
 
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TeaSea said:
I flew with one other CFI one time, who grabbed the controls twice....I told him he was fired (remember who's paying-- does your ego good to remember who the boss really is).
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You're only the boss on the ground. In the air, the CFI is the boss. If you fire me for taking the controls (which I do not do lightly), I'm happier than you are about it, because I'm no longer going to have to risk my life and ticket with you.
 
Ron Levy said:
You're only the boss on the ground. In the air, the CFI is the boss. If you fire me for taking the controls (which I do not do lightly), I'm happier than you are about it, because I'm no longer going to have to risk my life and ticket with you.
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Understandable, Ron, but there's a difference between you and some no-name instructor who grabs the controls at a whim. I had an instructor do that to me on a checkout flight well after I'd gotten my ticket. Coming in to land and he had his hands on the yoke for no discernible reason, and I could feel his inputs. Didn't fire him then, but didn't fly with him again, either. Whether I'm the sharpest stick in the bunch or not, taking the controls and not providing any verbal feedback is just wrong in my book. Don't know that this is what TeaSea encountered, but I know I wasn't going to stand for it.
 
gprellwitz said:
Understandable, Ron, but there's a difference between you and some no-name instructor who grabs the controls at a whim. I had an instructor do that to me on a checkout flight well after I'd gotten my ticket. Coming in to land and he had his hands on the yoke for no discernible reason, and I could feel his inputs. Didn't fire him then, but didn't fly with him again, either. Whether I'm the sharpest stick in the bunch or not, taking the controls and not providing any verbal feedback is just wrong in my book. Don't know that this is what TeaSea encountered, but I know I wasn't going to stand for it.
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Point well taken. Without knowing the circumstances under which it occurred, there's no way to say that TeaSea's decision wasn't justified.
 
Ron Levy said:
You're only the boss on the ground. In the air, the CFI is the boss. If you fire me for taking the controls (which I do not do lightly), I'm happier than you are about it, because I'm no longer going to have to risk my life and ticket with you.
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Oh Ron, I would not argue in the air...on anything....I'm not an idiot...point is though, I'm paying the bills, I'm paying for the experience and judgement of the CFI...if I don't think he's giving me what I paid for, then I'm going somewhere else. Now, confession time -- I'm guilty of holding back information....

In this case, the CFI is known to grab the controls on the slightest pretense...something other students (and other CFI's) have noted as well. During this same flight he arbitrarily decided to change the radio freq's on me (without my telling me what he was doing), then took the yoke to key the mike...sorry, I wasn't impressed.

Might have been different if I had flown with the guy a while....but I had not. He's not unsafe, and he has regulars who swear by him, but I'm not one. My regular CFI is much more experienced, much more patient, and we work well together. He's also semi-retired and not looking to go off and work for an airline.
 
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I fired a transtiion CFI many years back. He was screaming at me in the intercom, so much that I could not understand him, the distortion was unbelievable. His solution to any problem was to yell louder.

I simply said, "My plane, you're fired". He died a few months later in a clapped out Cessna 207 flying in Grand Canyon. It's been awful getting established in aviation, for ALL of the last thirty years. LAX91FA213....that's him, Robert Mathews, rip..
 
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At the risk of thread creep...

I once fired a CFI after a Christmas party. Old geezer. He'd flown in for the party from his home drome about 140 miles north, drank himself stupid, and wound up passed out on the FBO sofa. An hour or so later, we noticed he was gone. He'd staggered back into his airplane and flown home.

I think he's "retired" these days... Not sure, though, because I also switched flight schools shortly thereafter.

-Rich
 
TeaSea said:
Might have been different if I had flown with the guy a while....but I had not. He's not unsafe, and he has regulars who swear by him, but I'm not one. My regular CFI is much more experienced, much more patient, and we work well together. He's also semi-retired and not looking to go off and work for an airline.
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BTW, the CFI I do not want to use is actually a pretty personable guy and I get on with him quite well. I just will not use him as a CFI on primary training. now that I've gotten a few hundred hours under my belt, I would not hesistate to have him come along as a safety pilot, or to do a checkout. Earning my PPL however, I did not feel comfortable with him.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread.....
 
gprellwitz said:
Understandable, Ron, but there's a difference between you and some no-name instructor who grabs the controls at a whim. I had an instructor do that to me on a checkout flight well after I'd gotten my ticket. Coming in to land and he had his hands on the yoke for no discernible reason, and I could feel his inputs. Didn't fire him then, but didn't fly with him again, either. Whether I'm the sharpest stick in the bunch or not, taking the controls and not providing any verbal feedback is just wrong in my book. Don't know that this is what TeaSea encountered, but I know I wasn't going to stand for it.
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And a difference to whether the pilot being trained owns the plane and has lots of hours flying the equipment.

I came very close to firing a CFI doing my recurrent training when he decided for me that the Garmin 430 should be set up differently - he went into setup without telling me what he was doing as we were taxiing and set it to heading up (I fly north up) and auto zoom, along with a couple of other things. I stopped the plane, told him to reset it and not to touch it again or I'd taxi back to the FBO and discharge him.

It's one thing to discuss the whys and wherefores of different techniques in advance, and something entirely different to go and reset stuff without discussing it first. Note that what he did is a lot different than "failing" instruments on an IPC which is an unfamiliar mode.
 
wsuffa said:
And a difference to whether the pilot being trained owns the plane and has lots of hours flying the equipment.

I came very close to firing a CFI doing my recurrent training when he decided for me that the Garmin 430 should be set up differently - he went into setup without telling me what he was doing as we were taxiing and set it to heading up (I fly north up) and auto zoom, along with a couple of other things. I stopped the plane, told him to reset it and not to touch it again or I'd taxi back to the FBO and discharge him.

It's one thing to discuss the whys and wherefores of different techniques in advance, and something entirely different to go and reset stuff without discussing it first. Note that what he did is a lot different than "failing" instruments on an IPC which is an unfamiliar mode.
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Right -- there's a huge difference between challenging and meddling.

I approach a Flight Review as an opportunity to learn a new airplane and system with an experienced pilot/owner.

I'm up front about this and it seems to remove the "test" mode apprehension. I also spend time asking about the type flying done, the areas that he/she thinks needs some review, and if there's anything new we should do (maybe commercial maneuvers?).

I let the owner take me through a thorough preflight. This is important as it lets the owner talk about his airplane (who doesn't like this?) while I decide if I'm going to fly in it (don't laugh -- come take a look at some of the gems tucked away in far corners of these far flung fields).

Once we're aboard, I don't touch nuttin' unless asked. The only reason I'd ever grab the yoke is if we're about to die or bend something badly. I had to a previous FR when the owner-pilot refused to add power as we rapidly droped towards the approach lights (I'm very familiar with the airplane model we were using and knew we did not have enough energy to make it without power).

After that flight I suggested we fly again soon and there was real resentment that I wouldn't sign off today. Sorry -- but when I have to save you and me from disaster, you ain't ready to be alone.
 
gprellwitz said:
Understandable, Ron, but there's a difference between you and some no-name instructor who grabs the controls at a whim. I had an instructor do that to me on a checkout flight well after I'd gotten my ticket. Coming in to land and he had his hands on the yoke for no discernible reason, and I could feel his inputs. Didn't fire him then, but didn't fly with him again, either. Whether I'm the sharpest stick in the bunch or not, taking the controls and not providing any verbal feedback is just wrong in my book. Don't know that this is what TeaSea encountered, but I know I wasn't going to stand for it.
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Ron Levy said:
Point well taken. Without knowing the circumstances under which it occurred, there's no way to say that TeaSea's decision wasn't justified.
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I had a CFI dancing on the rudders on final into Jackson Hole a number of years ago. Stabilized approach down the center line and I could feel him on the rudders. I just ignored it and and landed the airplane. Today with more hours and years I would have told him to knock it off.
 
Ghery said:
I had a CFI dancing on the rudders on final into Jackson Hole a number of years ago. Stabilized approach down the center line and I could feel him on the rudders. I just ignored it and and landed the airplane. Today with more hours and years I would have told him to knock it off.
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On my private check ride last summer, during the simulated instrument portion, I'm staring at the ball off center and pushing the rudder harder and harder...finally I realized what was going on and said, "are you waiting for me to push this pedal thru the floor or ask you to take your foot off my pedal?" We laughed. I passed...no thanks to 10min of performance anxiety though.

The first plane i flew in was a 152. I'm 6'-1" and so was my instructor. The only place to put your feet is on the rudders (so I recall). I can't tell you how long it took before I knew what the rudder 'actually' felt like. His hands were all over the controls as well. When I soloed to practice maneuvers I decided that steep turns were a good one to practice. Three attemps (mind you I had under 20hrs), and I found myself in the exact same steep dive. I hadn't gotten the control feed back of maintaining the bank and it got steeper, and steeper. I got it under control while out there but geez, talk about a sweaty vinyl seat.
 
picone said:
On my private check ride last summer, during the simulated instrument portion, I'm staring at the ball off center and pushing the rudder harder and harder...finally I realized what was going on and said, "are you waiting for me to push this pedal thru the floor or ask you to take your foot off my pedal?" We laughed. I passed...no thanks to 10min of performance anxiety though.

The first plane i flew in was a 152. I'm 6'-1" and so was my instructor. The only place to put your feet is on the rudders (so I recall). I can't tell you how long it took before I knew what the rudder 'actually' felt like. His hands were all over the controls as well. When I soloed to practice maneuvers I decided that steep turns were a good one to practice. Three attemps (mind you I had under 20hrs), and I found myself in the exact same steep dive. I hadn't gotten the control feed back of maintaining the bank and it got steeper, and steeper. I got it under control while out there but geez, talk about a sweaty vinyl seat.
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Welcome to PoA, PICOne! Now go out and get a tailwheel endorsement! (After telling us more about yourself, of course!)
 
gprellwitz said:
Welcome to PoA, PICOne! Now go out and get a tailwheel endorsement! (After telling us more about yourself, of course!)
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Thank you. Busy with IFR and building my XC time up right now, but I do intend to get a tailwheel endorsement.
 
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