Fear of Concrete

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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We have a friend who is learning to fly and he is having a hard time landing properly. I had a similar problem as he does -- fear of slamming into that huge slab of concrete at a 45* angle going at least 100 mph. I've tried to help by telling what got me over it.

My instructor helped by having me make no-flap landings so that the approach angle was more shallow and it didn't seem like we were headed for disaster quite as rapidly.

I learned to breathe on final. Before that, I would start holding my breath as soon as I turned final and hold it all the way to the ground. At Danbury, the final for 35 is between two hills and goes on for over a mile. There is a swamp at the base of the hills and a road just before the threshhold. By the time we got to the swamp, my brain was ready to give up for lack of oxygen and as soon as we were on the ground I sat gasping and wheezing. Not a pretty sight.

My flares were a series of up and down movements like a cork riding on waves. I learned to watch the far end of the runway as soon as we crossed the threshhold.

I'm wondering whether you have other tips that helped you or that you think would help our friend.
 
I will confess to often having the same problem. So I have to ask, "watch the far end of the runway" for what? To better judge the rate at which you are descending or to better judge how close you are to the ground? If the latter, is that really better than looking down?
 
The visual picture when looking down the runway makes one less likely to over correct.

Think of driving down the road watching the lane stripe next to your car vs looking ahead at the car in front or just 'further down the road'.

When you've made the transition from approach through round-out and are starting to flare you should be at a "safe height" and are now just in the "holditoffholditoffholditoff" mode. This assumes you have plenty of runway and have not eaten up half of it in the round-out because you are carrying too much speed.

Night landings (in my opinion) help with this. The smooth air and the visual picture afforded by the runway lights always made my landings better for some reason. It takes one or two landings to get used to how the runway skid marks look as they come into view in your landing light, but after that they feel fine.

Just my non-professional observations.
 
Most likely there's a certain amount of visual fixation involved...either on the approach end of the runway, which makes it look like the ground is rushing up at you, or the "thousand yard stare" that looks but doesn't see, and therefore can't judge closure rates.

After an experience with a tailwheel transition, I actually started having students turn their heads and look to one side or the other as they approach the threshold, and then back to the runway when they started having "depth perception" problems. It's been a more effective teaching tool for me than the "look at the end, look at the middle, look at the end" thing that I was taught, which still allows for a certain amount of fixation.
 
ElliotR said:
I will confess to often having the same problem. So I have to ask, "watch the far end of the runway" for what? To better judge the rate at which you are descending or to better judge how close you are to the ground? If the latter, is that really better than looking down?
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Hello, Elliot. Welcome to PoA. Why don't you start a thread and introduce yourself.

I live near New York and don't fly as often as I wish. Still working on my IFR and helping Hubby learn to be a CFI. Visit kids in CA and OK from time to time in our C-172. Hoping for Oshkosh this year. BTW, became a grandmother for the 12th time this week.
 
AuntPeggy said:
At Danbury, the final for 35 is between two hills and goes on for over a mile. There is a swamp at the base of the hills and a road just before the threshhold.
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My instructor had me do a diversion here during one of my first XC's. It was pretty weird on the downwind and base legs not being able to see the runway. On final, I felt a little too close to those 2 hills. It was a slightly claustrophobic feeling.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Hello, Elliot. Welcome to PoA. Why don't you start a thread and introduce yourself.

I live near New York and don't fly as often as I wish. Still working on my IFR and helping Hubby learn to be a CFI. Visit kids in CA and OK from time to time in our C-172. Hoping for Oshkosh this year. BTW, became a grandmother for the 12th time this week.
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Hi Peggy, thanks very much for the warm welcome. I would start a thread but being new around here I don't know what forum to do so in. :redface: I just got back in the game this year after a ~15-16 year absence from flying. Things changed while I was away!!! I'm just about to start my instrument training.

I first learned to fly "near New York" myself (HPN), but now I live in sunny San Diego.

Congrats on the 12th grandkid!!
 
jhausch said:
The visual picture when looking down the runway makes one less likely to over correct.

Think of driving down the road watching the lane stripe next to your car vs looking ahead at the car in front or just 'further down the road'.

When you've made the transition from approach through round-out and are starting to flare you should be at a "safe height" and are now just in the "holditoffholditoffholditoff" mode. This assumes you have plenty of runway and have not eaten up half of it in the round-out because you are carrying too much speed.

Night landings (in my opinion) help with this. The smooth air and the visual picture afforded by the runway lights always made my landings better for some reason. It takes one or two landings to get used to how the runway skid marks look as they come into view in your landing light, but after that they feel fine.

Just my non-professional observations.
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MauleSkinner said:
Most likely there's a certain amount of visual fixation involved...either on the approach end of the runway, which makes it look like the ground is rushing up at you, or the "thousand yard stare" that looks but doesn't see, and therefore can't judge closure rates.

After an experience with a tailwheel transition, I actually started having students turn their heads and look to one side or the other as they approach the threshold, and then back to the runway when they started having "depth perception" problems. It's been a more effective teaching tool for me than the "look at the end, look at the middle, look at the end" thing that I was taught, which still allows for a certain amount of fixation.
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Thanks guys. I am definitely having "thousand yard stare" issues and need better techniques.
 
Try an 8:1 or 12:1 approach path instead of a 1:1 (45 degree) approach path. I'd be scared coming at 45 degrees too.
 
One thing that helped me most was doing normal descents, finishing with a stall, with an imaginary "hard deck" at a safe altitude. I was even given targets on the ground to try to "flare" over... obviously a road with an intersection is a good choice for this.

Doesn't completely remove the fear factor, but it helps build confidence that you can make an appropriate descent and finish at the desired altitude with minimum energy. Once the confidence is built up, the runway itself, nearby obstacles or necessarily steep approach paths are not so intimidating.

I had been coached through some decent landings prior to that, but it all got much easier- and less scary- after the practice descents described above.
 
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Aim for the ground.

Miss.
 
Not being a CFI I don't know how to teach - I do have folks come to me now and then to discuss problems... What I do for this problem is have the pilot/student get stabilized on the final approach (not full flaps) and carry some power and I want him to level off at 50 feet (altimeter set at field zero for this exercise) and add enough power to just hold that altitude and fly down the runway and go around... Next one is 25 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then just hold it off as close to 6 inches (by peripheral vision) as possible, but DON'T let it touch... Keep doing the 6 incher until he masters it... Final one at 6 inches, halfway down I tell them to pull the throttle to idle and just hold that attitude in his peripheral vision... Suddenly the wheels are rolling and he/she have made the best landing of their career...

All of us hot shot pilots would benefit from doing a couple of the 6 inch fly by's now and then...

denny-o
 
Arbiter419 said:
Imagine a dragonfly with sore feet trying to land on a lily-pad.
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:rofl:

Yep, what Denny said. I found in landing a new plane is to not land at all. What I mean is approach the runway on final and just hang over the runway but don't land. Use power to maintain airspeed to keep flying for 1/3 - 1/2 the runway. The goal is get a good site picture in your mind, and get a feel of the airplane.

This must be the difference between aviators and non aviators. Non aviators can't wait to get on the ground, aviators are afraid to land! :rofl:
 
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EdFred said:
Try an 8:1 or 12:1 approach path instead of a 1:1 (45 degree) approach path. I'd be scared coming at 45 degrees too.
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Eventually you can convince that scared part of your brain that it isn't really 45* or 100 mph, but the convincing takes a long time.

BTW, Danbury also has a runway 26 that has you coming over the top of the hill and diving to the runway. They've put a lighted pole on the top of the hill on the glidepath just to make sure you know where it is. It is commonly referred to as the "1000 foot pole" because you are supposed to remain above 1000' until past it.
 
Practice level off in various power-configurations (full flasp, no flaps, 1500 RPM, 1700 RPM, etc)

The student has to understand that the airplane is transitioning from a descent to level flight at a fairly low airspeed -- with power to idle (or thereabouts) the airplane will need to increase angle of attack to maintain level flight.

This is the one beef I have with slow flight instruction -- it's usually taught as precursor to stall training.

It's not -- it's learning how the airplane performs at slow airspeeds and high angle of attack -- precisely the situation just before touchdown.
 
I never had much of a fear of concrete, its pretty inanimate stuff. I do have an acute fear of crashing however.
 
Hi All,
I had the same issue, my instructor had me fly down the length of the runway at about 2 feet without touching down several times while configured to land, it worked.
I still mess up a landing from time to time but not from that issue.
 
Try landing on grass instead?

All kidding aside...I just got over it as I learned to control the plane instead of letting it control me.
 
I'm glad that this subject came up - I've been working on figuring out how to address the problem for students and so now I've read a number of helpful hints here. :yesnod:

Think I'll go out and practice from the right seat these exercises --

for me what happened is I finally just got over it - not from any stellar instruction either.... My CFI even said to my husband something like "well, Jean isn't quite so afraid now and she's getting better"... I do remember when we would turn onto base he'd sometimes have to say - ya'know, you can't actually land the plane unless you let it point towards the ground :D...
 
MauleSkinner said:
How, exactly?
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It's more difficult for those accustomed to paved runways to judge height above the surface over grass -- for a while.

The "afraid of concrete" described in the OP has not developed a sense of height above the surface coupled with handling the airplane close to that surface.

Slow flight and descents with transitions to level slow flight practice would be beneficial, as would landing on a grass runway.
 
ElliotR said:
Thanks guys. I am definitely having "thousand yard stare" issues and need better techniques.
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I think it's just as important to know what you are looking for as it is to know where to look. Looking at the far end provides a very clear indication of sink rate and looking down the runway (paved with center stripes) yields a good perception of lateral drift but neither gives you much info about your actual height above the ground. With just a little practice you should be able to judge the distance between the wheels to within a few feet and the runway either by looking down to the side or better yet using your peripheral vision while looking over the nose while rounding over the runway. The airplane's pitch attitude is also valuable when landing and that can be read pretty accurately simply by noting where the horizon intersects the view out the front relative to something else in view such as the top of the cowl or the bottom of the windshield corners etc.

The tough part is to watch the far end for sink rate, a long segment of the centerline for dift, the horizon for attitude, and downward for height all at the same time. But if you're trying to assess sink rate while looking down or sink rate while looking at the centerline you make that much harder than it needs to be.

In most tricycle gear small airplanes you can achieve a pretty decent landing if you just watch the sink rate and drift by staring towards the far end once you sense that you are within 10-15 feet of wheel to pavement separation, adjusting the aft pressure on the yoke/stick to reduce that sink rate gradually to near but not quite zero. As long as you touch down with a low sink rate near the center without much drift the landing should feel pretty good. This isn't the best way to land (if you're too gradual ab it can eat a lot of runway and but it works pretty well and is what I normally do when landing an unfamiliar airplane.
 
ElliotR said:
Thanks guys. I am definitely having "thousand yard stare" issues and need better techniques.
Click to expand...

I think it's just as important to know what you are looking for as it is to know where to look. Looking at the far end provides a very clear indication of sink rate and looking down the runway (paved with center stripes) yields a good perception of lateral drift but neither gives you much info about your actual height above the ground. With just a little practice you should be able to judge the distance between the wheels to within a few feet and the runway either by looking down to the side or better yet using your peripheral vision while looking over the nose while rounding over the runway. The airplane's pitch attitude is also valuable when landing and that can be read pretty accurately simply by noting where the horizon intersects the view out the front relative to something else in view such as the top of the cowl or the bottom of the windshield corners etc.

The tough part is to watch the far end for sink rate, a long segment of the centerline for dift, the horizon for attitude, and downward for height all at the same time. But if you're trying to assess sink rate while looking down or sink rate while looking at the centerline you make that much harder than it needs to be.

In most tricycle gear small airplanes you can achieve a pretty decent landing if you just watch the sink rate and drift by staring towards the far end once you sense that you are within 10-15 feet of wheel to pavement separation, adjusting the aft pressure on the yoke/stick to reduce that sink rate gradually to near but not quite zero. As long as you touch down with a low sink rate near the center without much drift the landing should feel pretty good. This isn't the best way to land (if you stretch out the final sink to the runway too long it can eat a lot of runway and you can end up getting too slow) but it works pretty well and is what I normally do when landing an unfamiliar airplane.
 
dmccormack said:
Grass will force you to look out the side to judge height above the ground.

Not a bad suggestion, actually.
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IME a good grass runway is by far easier to land on then a paved runway. (provided it's of appropriate length for your airplane)

I'm a bit confused as to how judging your height on grass would be harder.
 
jesse said:
IME a good grass runway is by far easier to land on then a paved runway. (provided it's of appropriate length for your airplane)

I'm a bit confused as to how judging your height on grass would be harder.
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Yeah, I know it's easier on the tires and the gear -- but, you don't have the edges of the runway and all those lines (e.g. cues) helping or hindering your moment by moment analysis of height above the ground.

Grass simplifies the problem by removing cues and forcing the pilot to develop a sense of height above touchdown by getting the overall picture -- not relying on an imprinted mental image of how far the edges should be.

If you don't think this is a problem, fly in the back with students when I take them from a 75' wide runway to a 150' runway.
 
I just went through some training for this with an older CFI. There's something to be said for someone who's been flying for 40+ years and is an active CFI.

Anyway, I'd come in, and whether it was shallow or steep, when I got close, OMG ITS GOING TO SMACK ME! I'd flare 40 feet up.

Apparently, this is related to the "Blossom Effect". The spot where you're going to land sort of stays put visually, but all of the surrounding area starts moving perpective and it looks like you're zooming at the ground suddenly much faster than you were before.

So, there's a magic fix for this. As soon as you start getting that tense feeling that everything is zooming up at you, look down at the end of the runway. Your peripheral vision will pick up the sink changes you need.

Fight the urge to look back where you think you'll touchdown. You'll find that, as long as you have some airspeed and some lift, your descent will slow because of the cushion of ground effect.

Looking down the runway, you'll see better when you're "sitting" on the ground. As you get closer, you'll do the round-out (ie, wings level, removing any nose-down attitude).

As the plane begins to settle onto the runway, hold it off. GENTLY pull back into the flare. If you get a TINY bit of balloon, DO NOT NOSE OVER. If you release your backpressure, you'll accelerate towards the runway.

The plane will only go up a foot or two, and will continue sinking on its own. Just hold the same backpressure, and it will keep sinkng. As you keep getting closer, you can hold it back further until you touch down.

The key is to stay close to the runway, but bleed off airspeed using the drag of having your nose up. In the beginnings, you may find it almost feels like a little stairstep. A good CFI will call it out during the landing.

When you get much much better than me, or when you have that lucky landing in still air, then it will be two, gentle control adjustments - one for roundout, and a longer, but slower one for the flare.

If you're magic, you might actually do the roundout and flare as a single, smooth control adjustment. I have no hopes of this level of mastery, but maybe after 10,000 hours or so I could hope. (only 115h now)
 
dmccormack said:
If you don't think this is a problem, fly in the back with students when I take them from a 75' wide runway to a 150' runway.
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Heh, another problem of mine. Land at AFW, great. Then go back and land of a 2600' asphault runway and I'm trying to make the sight picture the same, which puts me too close and too low.

"Don't pick points on the ground; pick points on the wing."

A good downwind has the runway visually under my wingtip (or last row of rivets for shorter pilots). When it's up under the wing root... that's a problem, and there's not enough time for checklists, etc.
 
xaminmo said:
I just went through some training for this with an older CFI.
... snip ...

If you're magic, you might actually do the roundout and flare as a single, smooth control adjustment. I have no hopes of this level of mastery, but maybe after 10,000 hours or so I could hope. (only 115h now)
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Welcome to PoA. Thanks for contributing your knowledge and experience in this an a few other threads already. Once, again, welcome.
 
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