Avionics wish list

AdamZ

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Adam Zucker
Gary Shelby and were talking planes last week ( well actually we talk planes every week) and I was repeating something Andrew Morrison said "buy the panel you want" for some reason with aviation upgrading unless your an A&P is usually gonna cost you more than if you just get it. Probably for the same reason that you will never add the full price of that GNS430 you just stuck in your panel. Soooo that got me to thinking:

For the following question assume the following
-You are buying or have SEL ( nomally aspirated) pre owned aircraft.
-You want to use it for local hops and a few 300-500 mile XC per year and perhaps the occasional 1000 mile jaunt
-This is not a low n slow flier where all you may want is a needle and ball
-Cost can be a factor but for this question we assume you have enough to buy a reasonable plane of your choice perhaps not a Cessna 400 just off the line but you get the gist.
-EDIT- Lets not include things like a 696 or EFB with Wx as they are incomparison inexpensive and are portable.

What are the three things that you would really want in a panel and it what order of importance to you? ( if you really feel the need to you can add a fourth)

I think mine would be:

1) Approach capable GPS such as a 430W or 530W
2) Auto Pilot w/ alt hold that can be coupled to the GPS
3) HSI
 
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Slightly Different but close to yours. I started with a state of the art 1980 panel dual NAV/COMS, one glideslope RCVR and the ever useful ADF.

1) Auto Pilot with altitude hold. Done

2) EFB / GPS with XM weather.

3) IFR certified GPS coupled to the A/P. i.e. GNS430W

Reasoning:
Life without the A/P especially single pilot IFR is a termendous workload.

I've thought hard about 2 and 3 and truly beleive that having XM weather with the charts and flight planning software in one unit for around $1,500 is a far better overall investment in flight safety than the $8000 for the IFR GPS.
 
Ray You make a great point about the AP. I didn't intend to put things like EFBs or 696 with Wx in the plane primarily since those items are relativley inexpensive ( I said relativley) compared to the "panel installed Items. Does that change your wish list at all?

Also for me the GPS is #1 because Wings only has GPS approaches with WAAS although the WAAS has not yet been ceritified hopefully soon though. I suspect that if I had an ILS or even a decent VOR approach my list may be reversed with the AP first
 
Z-man, don't think I am kissing-up, but your list parallels mine- the IFR-cert GPS w/ WAAS, the autopilot and the HSI. I dearly love the logical presentation that the HSI gives.

I had a chance to buy a Sandel 3308 dirt-cheap recently, hesitated because (1) cost of installation is still substantial, and (2) I am thinking one fine day, that an Aspen Pro will be in my panel (hey, I can dream...).

I absolutely agree that you should get what you want in a panel (or as close as you can manage), as avionics purchases do not flow to the bottom-line dollar for dollar. My plane was close when I bought it, lacking only the WAAS-certification for the 430, but it was on the list for that and has since been done. I also wanted, and have, redundancy in the principal flight instruments (AI and DG), because my primary AI and the HSI are electric, and my secondary are both air-powered. Hence, I feel very good about being able to maintain shiny-up status.
 
I agree with your list Adam, and I also agree with the addition of an autopilot with AH.
 
I haven't done as much research into advanced avionics systems as others here, but I do have about 100 hours in an airplane with an A/P with altitude hold/preselect, an HSI, and a stormscope and I grew to appreciate all of those very much. Today, doing my instrument training, I know the A/P would be "failed" most of the time but I miss the HSI quite keenly. The one thing I didn't have in that airplane was an IFR-certified GPS, and do have one in my training airplane today, but I still miss the HSI. The real-time weather also, but I haven't done as much serious XC recently where I would need it, and before I start doing that again, most likely next year (and hopefully with an IR), I plan to buy a hand-held GPS with XM weather.

So all that to say, I pretty much agree with Adam's list, with weather as a close fourth.
 
I would make the HSI #1 since I can't remember how to fly without one, then the approach capable GPS which wouldn't necessarily need to have WAAS, then the coupled autopilot.
 
What are the three things that you would really want in a panel and it what order of importance to you? ( if you really feel the need to you can add a fourth)

1) Garmin 430, preferably W. Allows me to go direct IFR, but also has many capabilities and is a very in-demand item to have on the used market so if I decide to sell the plane I'm in pretty good shape.

2) Autopilot. I prefer 2-axis with altitude hold, but on a heavy-pitch airplane that holds altitude well on its own, even a simple follow-the-heading-bug autopilot can work well. You'll only have to make a few heading adjustments over the course of a flight.

3) Weather in the cockpit. Weather this is a GDL69A datalink unit hooked to the 430 or a 496/696/Aera I don't really care. What I do want is a way to see radar picture and get METARs from airports I can't yet receive by radio.

A lot of people are putting an HSI as #3. I feel that the datalink wx is much more important - Yes, the HSI presents things in an easy-to-use format, but it does not provide any MORE information than a DG plus a VOR head plus a brain. For my in-cockpit weather decisionmaking on a long-ish IFR flight, there is simply no substitute for being able to see the weather on a screen. Calling FSS and having them tell you about an area of radar returns 20 miles north-northwest of some VOR you've never heard of and don't know where it is just doesn't cut it. :no:

If the plane I bought didn't have an HSI and I wanted one bad... I'd just go ahead and add an Aspen Pro. By the time install cost is added, the Aspen comes in WAY cheaper than a Sandel, and I think cheaper than a regular mechanical HSI as well.
 
3) Weather in the cockpit. Weather this is a GDL69A datalink unit hooked to the 430 or a 496/696/Aera I don't really care. What I do want is a way to see radar picture and get METARs from airports I can't yet receive by radio.

A lot of people are putting an HSI as #3. I feel that the datalink wx is much more important - Yes, the HSI presents things in an easy-to-use format, but it does not provide any MORE information than a DG plus a VOR head plus a brain. For my in-cockpit weather decisionmaking on a long-ish IFR flight, there is simply no substitute for being able to see the weather on a screen. Calling FSS and having them tell you about an area of radar returns 20 miles north-northwest of some VOR you've never heard of and don't know where it is just doesn't cut it. :no:.

Yep on 1 & 2.

The METAR picture with XM is lame -- you get the hourly (XX53 reports) -- even 45 minutes later. Winds are forecast only (of course). The lighting strike map is information, but usually is just confirmation.

I leave the NEXRAD screen up 99% of the time. I might page through other screens just for kicks, but I call Flight Watch for updates on arrival weather. Plus I can give a PIREP and be a hero for a minute of so.

:yesnod:
 
1) Approach capable GPS such as a 430W or 530W
2) Auto Pilot w/ alt hold that can be coupled to the GPS
3) HSI

That was our min equipment list when Brent and I were looking, knowing that we'd augment that with XM weather (496).
 
I faced the exact situation you describe when I bought the current CE-180. I (agonizingly) opted for the 430A, S-tec 30A, re-configured panel and upgraded EGT/CHT and FF computer/totalizer. Couldn't be happier. I actually bought an Aspen with full intention of installing it, but decided against it.

N9248T panel Redone 001.jpg
 
Yep on 1 & 2.

The METAR picture with XM is lame -- you get the hourly (XX53 reports) -- even 45 minutes later. Winds are forecast only (of course). The lighting strike map is information, but usually is just confirmation.

I leave the NEXRAD screen up 99% of the time. I might page through other screens just for kicks, but I call Flight Watch for updates on arrival weather. Plus I can give a PIREP and be a hero for a minute of so.

Well, it still beats the hell out of nothing. "Gee, it looks like the forecast scud got there 3 hours ahead of when it was supposed to. Maybe we should find a place to stop for the night." I'm not gonna call Flight Watch every single hour for an update, generally.

I particularly like the 496, and now the Aera 560, as the ultimate aviation decision tool: You can see that the weather isn't as forecast, find an airport with good weather, a courtesy car, and a hotel nearby, and then when you get in the courtesy car it'll help you find your way to the hotel on the ground. I *loved* the 496 when I had it, and I'm seriously considering an Aera. Haven't decided on 510/560 yet, I may rent each for 3 months and see what I think. I won't miss the AOPA directory not being on the 510 because I have it on my iPhone now. :yes:
 
All I can do is echo everyone else. I would be very unhappy flying XC without - HSI, NEXRAD, approach capable GPS, and autopilot. If I had any money to burn, I'd have an Aspen Pro in the Mooney panel tomorrow.
 
1) Garmin 430, preferably W. Allows me to go direct IFR, but also has many capabilities and is a very in-demand item to have on the used market so if I decide to sell the plane I'm in pretty good shape.

2) Autopilot. I prefer 2-axis with altitude hold, but on a heavy-pitch airplane that holds altitude well on its own, even a simple follow-the-heading-bug autopilot can work well. You'll only have to make a few heading adjustments over the course of a flight.

3) Weather in the cockpit. Weather this is a GDL69A datalink unit hooked to the 430 or a 496/696/Aera I don't really care. What I do want is a way to see radar picture and get METARs from airports I can't yet receive by radio.

A lot of people are putting an HSI as #3. I feel that the datalink wx is much more important - Yes, the HSI presents things in an easy-to-use format, but it does not provide any MORE information than a DG plus a VOR head plus a brain. For my in-cockpit weather decisionmaking on a long-ish IFR flight, there is simply no substitute for being able to see the weather on a screen. Calling FSS and having them tell you about an area of radar returns 20 miles north-northwest of some VOR you've never heard of and don't know where it is just doesn't cut it. :no:

If the plane I bought didn't have an HSI and I wanted one bad... I'd just go ahead and add an Aspen Pro. By the time install cost is added, the Aspen comes in WAY cheaper than a Sandel, and I think cheaper than a regular mechanical HSI as well.

Yeah but the question was panel not portables. Would you really insist that a 696 or other EFB or a 496 come with the plane? Panel upgrades are pretty darn expensive, in comparison a 396 with XM Wx is not and you can add it with out futzing with the panel.
 
I just got back from a 568nm cross-country flight in a 182RG a couple of hours ago. We flew through weather enroute and had to turn inbound on the ILS before breaking out at 1500AGL.

After this flight, my list would be:
1.) IFR GPS. We were /U, so we had to file airways along the way, although we had a 396 to help with situational awareness. I was amazed at how inaccurate VOR's are when they are flown while having a 396 on-board as a comparison. It made me appreciate the 430 in the RV.
2.) On-board weather (3/496 with XM, etc.)
3.) Autopilot with heading track and altitude hold at a minimum. If it will track the Nav/GPS, that will be even better.

Just my .02.

Edit: Just re-read the OP - we are wishing for in-panel stuff. If we are wishing for panel mount and saying that the 'mobile' stuff is a gimme, then I would say a dependable DG would replace #2 in my list. The DG drifted enough in the 182RG that I was flying that it became very annoying. Would have been a much less stressful day if it held heading better.
 
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Well, it still beats the hell out of nothing. "Gee, it looks like the forecast scud got there 3 hours ahead of when it was supposed to. Maybe we should find a place to stop for the night." I'm not gonna call Flight Watch every single hour for an update, generally.

My bladder tolerance is about 4 hours (though I flew 4.5 to GA a few weeks ago and did 10 to Phoenix 2 years ago). So when I stop along the way, I check weather on the ground (I've been in one airport so far where there was no PC or at least old style wx terminal).

Any flight over 2 hours I call Flight Watch at least once. Though I forgot they closed at 2200 on the trip to GA. Fortunately ATL Center was quiet so the helpful controller gave me a Columbus wx update. The 496 XM was showing light precip in the area, but it was all aloft.

I don't mind calling 122.00 asking for an update and providing a PIREP. :)
 
Yeah but the question was panel not portables. Would you really insist that a 696 or other EFB or a 496 come with the plane? Panel upgrades are pretty darn expensive, in comparison a 396 with XM Wx is not and you can add it with out futzing with the panel.

No, I'm just saying that if the plane *doesn't* have a datalink unit installed in the panel, you're gonna have to get a portable (or go ahead and add the datalink). Whether installed or portable, weather is on the "most important" list.
 
My bladder tolerance is about 4 hours (though I flew 4.5 to GA a few weeks ago and did 10 to Phoenix 2 years ago). So when I stop along the way, I check weather on the ground (I've been in one airport so far where there was no PC or at least old style wx terminal).

I do that too. Of course, your stops can be quicker if you already checked it before landing and can check it after takeoff too. ;)

I guess I just look at it enough in the plane that there's no way I'd call flight watch to ask for the same info - I'd need my own dedicated flight watch frequency. :D
 
My list....

AP with Alt Hold and GPSS
Panel mount my G496 (has wx and traffic)
Garmin 530 IFR certified GPS (done) now to have it coupled to my wish list AP :smile:
HSI but would opt for the Aspen EFD 1000 Pro update
 
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My list (hopefully I've got an experimental that I can put these goodies in).

1) Glass panel setup (dual Dynon D-1000's, with the full ADAHRS setup)
2) Garmin GNS530W and a MX20, if I could find room for it.
3) Autopilot, probably a TruTrak AP100, with a yaw damper and automatic trim features.

What more could I possibly need?
 
My ideal configuration:
2x Garmin 430W
2x Aspen Pro Pilot
Vaccum DG
Vaccum AI

If I were to actually buy:
1x Garmin 430W
Some sort of second nav/com
Vaccum DG
Vaccum AI
Electric AI

I'm willing to fly IFR:
1x DG
1x AI
1x VOR
1x COM
 
Unlike most of you, I am in this situation for real. Although we have a 496 on the yoke, we want some IFR-capable avionics in the Free Bird, and it has nothing right now. We originally thought about an RNAV system with an IFR GPS. However, by the time you get all that old used equipment in the panel, you can get a brand shiny-new 430 installed with WAAS and a warranty. We'll go that way when the funds present themselves. An AP would be nice, but its only a Cherokee 140. It doesn't do missions with hard IFR, it doesn't need to. I wouldn't even consider an HSI. Why would I, when I have a panel-mount GPS that does exactly the same thing at a fraction of the cost? The only real drawback to our plan is that if the 430 breaks, we have nothing. Actually, we have the handheld that can do approaches, and if the 430 takes a major dump, we have a true blue emergency and can legally use any resources at our command to get back down safely.

If we're talking pie-in-the-sky, then the best AP there is, with a 530 and a 430 connected to the laser HUD that projects on the prop. But within reality, and considering financial resources and what the aircraft is truly worth, our solution is the 430.
 
I'm a big fan of XM Weather but agree that a 3/4/696 is the most cost effective way to get it.

One thing not mentioned is traffic alert system either Mode-S (TIS) or Skywatch (TAS) is something I've found very helpful in busy airspace.

I put a high value on the WASS capabilities of the 4/530's, lots of LPV approaches available and more being implemented.

Altitude preselect and glide slope coupling in the autopilot is very nice but not a must have for me. However I doubt a plane with an S-tec 55x would command much of a premium over the same plane with a 30.

Gosh it's fun to spend other people's money even if it's vicarious.

Joe
 
Curious why you have the vacuum when your dual Aspens give you redundancy and independent self-contained power.

Not Jesse, but I'd say one reason would be that the Aspens have common codebase, so have at least a theoretical common point of failure.

Very theoretical, though, I'd agree...
 
Not Jesse, but I'd say one reason would be that the Aspens have common codebase, so have at least a theoretical common point of failure.

Very theoretical, though, I'd agree...

Another (albeit unlikely) issue is that AFaIK, Aspen's attitude source won't work reliably above the 60th parallel. A more likely issue would be an electrical glitch that temporarily takes out the Aspens. As much as I like electronic gadgetry, I'd want to have at least one means of keeping the plane right side up based on a rotating mass. But that could be a rate of turn indicator rather than an AI.
 
A more likely issue would be an electrical glitch that temporarily takes out the Aspens. As much as I like electronic gadgetry, I'd want to have at least one means of keeping the plane right side up based on a rotating mass. But that could be a rate of turn indicator rather than an AI.
You've got it. Can't believe I forgot a two axis auto-pilot with roll steering...
 
Another (albeit unlikely) issue is that AFaIK, Aspen's attitude source won't work reliably above the 60th parallel. A more likely issue would be an electrical glitch that temporarily takes out the Aspens. As much as I like electronic gadgetry, I'd want to have at least one means of keeping the plane right side up based on a rotating mass. But that could be a rate of turn indicator rather than an AI.

Alaska is north of the 60th (most of it, other than the Aleutian Islands chain). You have any reference to that Aspen limitation? I'd like to read more about it... Seems seriously limiting, and am surprised it would pass FAA certification, even with a POH supplement / limitation note.

P.S.--It's funny that the POH for the Aspen units refer to "multi-tube" installations, when the screen is LCD. It's like saying we "dial a number" or "review the tape"; old technology lives on!
 
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Alaska is north of the 60th (most of it, other than the Aleutian Islands chain). You have any reference to that Aspen limitation? I'd like to read more about it... Seems seriously limiting, and am surprised it would pass FAA certification, even with a POH supplement / limitation note.

P.S.--It's funny that the POH for the Aspen units refer to "multi-tube" installations, when the screen is LCD.

I am supremely skeptical about this, as well.

If we were talking about a limitation on the ability of the directional "gyro" to automatically orient itself for heading, I'd not be surprised, as it relies upon the magnetic fields so to do, and the disruptions in same at high latitudes is well-known.
 
And the only electrical glitch that would take out both aspens (which have their own internal batteries) is likely to be an EMP - wonder how that affects magnetos and alternators?

But it may be moot - I'm not sure if you can legally pull out all the vacuum stuff from an airplane certified with it, and I'd expect converting an electric/vacuum airplane to a modern dual buss electric design would be a headache as well, for non-experimentals.

I guess I'd hate to have to jump through the hoops to say I've reengineered my mooney/cessna/piper/bonanza, and now I have one alternator and battery, but with an essential bus for automagic load shedding, my dual aspens have their own internal batteries so they should count as redundant, and I've removed the vacuum system and plumbing - please Mr. FSDO, approve my major alteration.
 
I am supremely skeptical about this, as well.

If we were talking about a limitation on the ability of the directional "gyro" to automatically orient itself for heading, I'd not be surprised, as it relies upon the magnetic fields so to do, and the disruptions in same at high latitudes is well-known.

AFaIK, virtually all the "inexpensive" GA oriented solid state attitude/heading reference systems require some sort of additional heading change information to maintain attitude. This can be GPS track, magnetic heading, g-force plus airdata, or some combination of those.

From the Aspen Pro PFD Pilot's Guide:
7.1.3. Geographic Limitation
Like all compass systems, the magnetometer used in the EFD1000 system will experience degraded performance in the vicinity of the magnetic poles. When thehorizontal component of the earth’s magnetic field is no longer strong enough to provide reliable heading data, the EFD1000 System will present a “CROSS CHECK ATTITUDE” annunciation, and will subsequently flag the magnetometer data as invalid, resulting in the annunciated loss of heading and attitude. Depending on the aircraft latitude and longitude, this effect could be observed as far away as 750 nm from the magnetic pole. In the Northern Hemisphere, this equates to operations in the Arctic Islands found north of continental North America
Use of the EFD1000 system for IFR operations within 750 nautical miles of the Magnetic Poles, based solely upon the attitude and heading data provided by the EFD1000, is prohibited.
 
And the only electrical glitch that would take out both aspens (which have their own internal batteries) is likely to be an EMP - wonder how that affects magnetos and alternators?

But it may be moot - I'm not sure if you can legally pull out all the vacuum stuff from an airplane certified with it, and I'd expect converting an electric/vacuum airplane to a modern dual buss electric design would be a headache as well, for non-experimentals.

I guess I'd hate to have to jump through the hoops to say I've reengineered my mooney/cessna/piper/bonanza, and now I have one alternator and battery, but with an essential bus for automagic load shedding, my dual aspens have their own internal batteries so they should count as redundant, and I've removed the vacuum system and plumbing - please Mr. FSDO, approve my major alteration.

I know of a few people who have converted a certified aircraft to an "all electric" system including the removal of the vacuum/pressure pump(s). A dual Aspen system with at least one emergency battery should meet the requirements for redundancy. The requirement is for independent sources not "alternative" sources (e.g. air and electrical).
 
And the only electrical glitch that would take out both aspens (which have their own internal batteries) is likely to be an EMP - wonder how that affects magnetos and alternators?
More trust then I'm willing to put into electronics :)

Would I fly with electric only attitude information? Sure. Would I prefer to have some sort of backup? You bet.
 
I guess I follow the general majority on here:

1. G430W or better.

2. Dual axis autopilot. Ours was on the fritz all summer, had to hand-fly from LNS to MSP. In and out of IMC. A LONG day. Around the patch or even a 50 NM trip, don't care about AP. Long legs, I WANT that AP, and prefer altitude hold.

3. Weather. Yeah Adam, I know a 496 is portable. I prefer the way ours exists in the panel, in an airgizmo, hard wired to power and to the G430W. Weather is too important these days not to have.

HSI et cet comes below those, IMO. Now, mind you, most aircraft I fly have backup vacuum system, and I'm assuming that's in place.

Jim G
 
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