What's an ADF good for?

What's an ADF good for?

  • Football games

    Votes: 13 13.5%

  • Baseball games

    Votes: 18 18.8%

  • News

    Votes: 23 24.0%

  • Music

    Votes: 17 17.7%

  • Talk radio

    Votes: 37 38.5%

  • The Disney Channel

    Votes: 7 7.3%

  • Adding weight to the panel

    Votes: 30 31.3%

  • Navigation

    Votes: 47 49.0%
  • Total voters
    96
jmaynard

jmaynard

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Jay Maynard
We got to arguing what ADFs were really good for on the chat line...so a poll seems in order.

BTW, you can vote for more than one option...
 
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This is a seriously dumbass question considering I've been instrument rated for a while, but isn't a VOR approach with an RMI the same as an ADF approach?

BTW voted for talk radio
 
Soon to be gone, I love flying NDB approaches.
 
ESbuilder said:
This is a seriously dumbass question considering I've been instrument rated for a while, but isn't a VOR approach with an RMI the same as an ADF approach?

BTW voted for talk radio
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A RMI provides the same presentation for a VOR as it does for a NDB but you don't fly a VOR approach solely by interpreting the RMI if you have one. You're still required to have CDI/OBS for the VOR and that's what should be used to track the approach course.
 
You missed "to count landings"

LOL. I usually use it to listen to Lobo Basketball games on 770 when I'm flying at the same time the game is on.
 
You also missed, "as a poor person's altitude alerter".
 
Everskyward said:
You also missed, "as a poor person's altitude alerter".
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That's what I use it for... Setting MDA.

Years ago, I used it enroute for ballgames. But now that I have XM in the plane (via Garmin396) it rarely gets used.

At some point, I am going to yank it from the plane to save weight.
 
There seems to be a large number of NDB out here in this part of the traditional Midwest. I was surprised to see so many. Out east, NDBs are much less common.
 
yes lots of ndbs in iowa too. it was often wuicker to fly ndb to ndb when ifr instead of between vors. my students used to love ndb only xcs in imc with approaches at both ends.

up in minnesota i know of several airports that broadcast their AWOS/ASOS over the ndb. lets see your gps do that.
 
tonycondon said:
yes lots of ndbs in iowa too. it was often wuicker to fly ndb to ndb when ifr instead of between vors. my students used to love ndb only xcs in imc with approaches at both ends.
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Love? You sure about that?

up in minnesota i know of several airports that broadcast their AWOS/ASOS over the ndb. lets see your gps do that.
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They show up on my 496 just fine.
 
jmaynard said:
Love? You sure about that?
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Sure, I'd love to do it. I love NDB approaches. There just aren't enough NDBs around here to really do an NDB XC.

Now, if it's really soupy out with low ceilings, give me an ILS. But NDBs are fun. I'm glad my plane has an ADF.
 
jmaynard said:
They show up on my 496 just fine.
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yep, and they could be up to an hour old.

and maybe i loved those trips more than my students, but it was a good training exercise.
 
Graueradler said:
Why do the percentages in the poll add up to way over 100%?
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Because you can pick more than once choice, and it's basing the percentage on the number of PEOPLE that voted that way, not the number of TOTAL VOTES that went that way.
 
Ron Levy said:
It depends on what else you have in the panel.
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I agree. Until two years ago, I had never had a panel-mounted GPS, and needed the ADF to get into my home base. I was pretty good with NDB approaches back then, but after I installed a 430W in the Cardinal, I only looked at the ADF when practicing NDB approaches (simulating GPS failure), and also to use the dial as an altitude reminder.

I switched planes one year ago to my 210. I have a (non-WAAS) 530 in the panel, and a non-functioning RMI linked to the ADF. I have not missed the ADF at all for nav purposes, but I do miss the altitude reminder function. Now I am paying to have the RMI repaired. Why? Well, until I upgrade to WAAS, I need ADF to file my most logical alternate (KINT), since ADF is required for the ILS there.

I will still miss the altitude-reminder function of the KI-227 ADF indicator, even if I have a functioning RMI.

Does anyone here have a 28V KI-227 for sale? If I could find one cheap, I would simply install that instead of repairing the RMI.

Wells
 
W. Stewart said:
Well, until I upgrade to WAAS, I need ADF to file my most logical alternate (KINT), since ADF is required for the ILS there.

I will still miss the altitude-reminder function of the KI-227 ADF indicator, even if I have a functioning RMI.
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Wells, I don't see why your non-WAAS 530 cannot substitute for the ADF on an ILS approach, nor do I understand how upgrading to WAAS would make any difference. If you were talking about a VFR only GPS what you wrote would make more sense. As far as I can tell the only reason that ADF is required is for the missed approach and any IFR GPS will cover that.
 
gismo said:
Wells, I don't see why your non-WAAS 530 cannot substitute for the ADF on an ILS approach, nor do I understand how upgrading to WAAS would make any difference. If you were talking about a VFR only GPS what you wrote would make more sense. As far as I can tell the only reason that ADF is required is for the missed approach and any IFR GPS will cover that.
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I hope that Ron will be along to back me up on this, citing regs and all, as my memory is becoming increasingly spotty. I believe that any IFR GPS can substitute for an ADF at the DESTINATION airport, but that a filed ALTERNATE airport has different requirements. I seem to recall that a TSO 129c GPS unit must have ground navaid backup--one must file an alternate that does not require GPS. My closest ILS airport that has weather-observation and can be filed as an alternate is KINT, but the ILS there requires ADF.

I think that a TSO 146c (WAAS) unit allows it to serve as a sole means of navigation, so that no ground-based navaid is required for any IFR purpose, including filed alternates.

Am I wrong about this?

Wells
 
I used it to free up space for other avionics!
 
While we're on the topic, do any of you all have a serviceable 14v KR-87 gathering dust somewhere?
 
W. Stewart said:
I hope that Ron will be along to back me up on this, citing regs and all, as my memory is becoming increasingly spotty. I believe that any IFR GPS can substitute for an ADF at the DESTINATION airport, but that a filed ALTERNATE airport has different requirements. I seem to recall that a TSO 129c GPS unit must have ground navaid backup--one must file an alternate that does not require GPS. My closest ILS airport that has weather-observation and can be filed as an alternate is KINT, but the ILS there requires ADF.

I think that a TSO 146c (WAAS) unit allows it to serve as a sole means of navigation, so that no ground-based navaid is required for any IFR purpose, including filed alternates.

Am I wrong about this?

Wells
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I do think you're right assuming you are using the precision alternate wx limits (600/2) to qualify the airport as an acceptable filed alternate. I didn't realize that this was what you were looking to do. BTW the FARs are silent on this and the AIM guidance is ambiguous WRT the need for your airplane to have the ability to fly a non GPS approach that would require you to use the GPS to identify fixes and/or fly the miss. That said, I remember reading something from the FAA that clearly stated this requirement.

BTW, there is nothing that says you can't fly that ILS at your filed alternate of KINT (or even a GPS approach) once you get there and find that your GPS is still working, you just can't plan your fuel requirements based on 600/2 at that airport (and that's assuming you have DME since the only approach that doesn't require ADF or GPS requires DME).
 
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gismo said:
I do think you're right assuming you are using the precision alternate wx limits (600/2) to qualify the airport as an acceptable filed alternate. I didn't realize that this was what you were looking to do. BTW the FARs are silent on this and the AIM guidance is ambiguous WRT the need for your airplane to have the ability to fly a non GPS approach that would require you to use the GPS to identify fixes and/or fly the miss. That said, I remember reading something from the FAA that clearly stated this requirement.

BTW, there is nothing that says you can't fly that ILS at your filed alternate of KINT (or even a GPS approach) once you get there and find that your GPS is still working, you just can't plan your fuel requirements based on 600/2 at that airport (and that's assuming you have DME since the only approach that doesn't require ADF or GPS requires DME).
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Bingo. Yes, I miss the DME that I had in the Cardinal, too. I learn a lot by reading these boards, particularly with respect to newer things that aren't necessarily in the FAR, but are brought up here, referencing Aviation Circulars, etc. I am often surprised that so many on here are preferring the GPS-alone-in-the-panel idea. Me, I like all kinds of redundancy, if I can afford to keep them all working. I also love the simplicity of ADF and DME--that must be a function of my age.

Wells
 
Flew one in actual this year, the only way I could get in to that airport.
Very inexpensive way to navigate.
I fear laziness is why many shun their use!
 
I use the ADF to count touch & goes when I'm out practicing... that's the only way I can remember how many I've done.
 
W. Stewart said:
Bingo. Yes, I miss the DME that I had in the Cardinal, too. I learn a lot by reading these boards, particularly with respect to newer things that aren't necessarily in the FAR, but are brought up here, referencing Aviation Circulars, etc. I am often surprised that so many on here are preferring the GPS-alone-in-the-panel idea. Me, I like all kinds of redundancy, if I can afford to keep them all working. I also love the simplicity of ADF and DME--that must be a function of my age.

Wells
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While I did remove a working ADF from my panel a while back to make room for more important (to me) stuff like a backup AI I still have a DME and two VOR/LOC/GS receivers and associated indicators in the panel. I figure that's enough redundancy/backup to handle a GPS failure. OTOH, it would be nice to have a second copy of the GNS480 so I wouldn't be inconvenienced by a failure in one. To some extent my Garmin 296 serves that purpose but it's not a legal IFR navigator.

In any case, to date I have not missed the ADF but having a TSO-C146 GPS is an important factor in that. I am surprised that no one has seen fit to include the ability to receive NDB audio in their GPSMAPNAVCOM product for the sole purpose of picking up ASOS/AWOS transmitted in that band.
 
ADFs don't seem too interesting when all our whizbang panels are fully functional but when all the supersophisticated stuff goes south it can be nice to have something fairly basic (besides a whiskey compass pointing north) identifying and pointing to the relatively ubiquitous and surprisingly long range AM radio stations.
 
My Mooney does not have an ADF and it is not missed. I haven't used an NDB in about forever. However, I got a rude awakening at my Falcon 20 initial training. One non-precision approach we had to fly was the LOC RWY 17R at KDWH http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0903/05457L17R.PDF.
The missed approach hold is at the DWH NDB, and you (almost) always miss on simulator approaches. I was expected to fly this as a matter of course. It is assumed an instrument rated pilot can do this with no questions asked. I did it, but at an all too high a stress level that shouldn't have been there. So when I got home, I flew this approach and miss on my On Top simulator some.
It is archaic technology, but apparently instrument pilots are supposed to know this stuff. I've changed my attitude a bit because of this.
 
When I was in instrument training working on ILS approaches, my CFII taught me to tune the ADF to the marker (when available) and to align the ADF dial with my current heading. This gives additional situational awareness prior to approach clearence. Its still on my pre-approach checklist.
 
I used to like NDB approaches, too, but there are so few of them, especially out West and even 19 years ago when I was first learning to fly instruments. My ADF was ancient, looked like an old-timey radio, weighed a ton, and pretty much just worked as a radio and nothing else, so I finally got rid of it and picked up about 10 lbs of useful load.

I miss being able to listen to football games, though.

Judy
 
The only reason you had to do it was because that sim is older than dirt and they are too cheap to upgrade the avionics.

Lance F said:
My Mooney does not have an ADF and it is not missed. I haven't used an NDB in about forever. However, I got a rude awakening at my Falcon 20 initial training. One non-precision approach we had to fly was the LOC RWY 17R at KDWH http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0903/05457L17R.PDF.
The missed approach hold is at the DWH NDB, and you (almost) always miss on simulator approaches. I was expected to fly this as a matter of course. It is assumed an instrument rated pilot can do this with no questions asked. I did it, but at an all too high a stress level that shouldn't have been there. So when I got home, I flew this approach and miss on my On Top simulator some.
It is archaic technology, but apparently instrument pilots are supposed to know this stuff. I've changed my attitude a bit because of this.
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I use mine as a strike finder. When you hear the static in the headset and the little needle points towards the lightning, then you know where not to go. It allows me to pick my way through thunderstorms with ease. Saves time too. :rolleyes2:


JUST KIDDING!

:D
 
wabower said:
The only reason you had to do it was because that sim is older than dirt and they are too cheap to upgrade the avionics.
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Dunno about that. I've had to do an NDB approach in the sim which represents a model that has been in production for only 5 years and has a full glass cockpit. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
Dunno about that. I've had to do an NDB approach in the sim which represents a model that has been in production for only 5 years and has a full glass cockpit. :dunno:
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So it's their syllabus that hasn't been updated in years?:incazzato:
 
I would think that someone in Mari's position would especially need to be proficient with NDB approaches. The expectation from customers is that if it's an airport, she can get into it when others might not be able to. Were I a paying customer, I'd expect her to be proficient in whatever approaches may be applicable to flight, period.

I also trust that she is. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I would think that someone in Mari's position would especially need to be proficient with NDB approaches. The expectation from customers is that if it's an airport, she can get into it when others might not be able to. Were I a paying customer, I'd expect her to be proficient in whatever approaches may be applicable to flight, period.
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Are there still airports where NDB is the only choice? I know that was the case about 10 years ago but I don't know about now.

The company I work for was big into NDB approaches when I first started, probably because a lot of the airplanes did not have GPS. In fact, it was specifically in our training authorization that we be both trained and tested on them which sometimes raised eyebrows with the training provider. Nowadays we will see one in training but not so much on the checkride.
 
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