The spin factor in a Low wing vs High wing?

Tina

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Tina
I am new to this forum and a fairly new pilot with 220 hours in a Cessna 150. I just purchased a Cherokee 140 with 160HP and have around 20 hours in it and so far I love it!

I know there is no substitute for training with a CFI but I do have a few questions about my new Cherokee vs the Cessna I am used to. One is the spin factor. I hear from some that you have to be careful in your turns in a Cherokee not to get the ball to far off because you may get into a tail spin. So knowing this I have been very careful to keep the ball centered at all times. Am I being to careful or is this true?
 
I am new to this forum and a fairly new pilot with 220 hours in a Cessna 150. I just purchased a Cherokee 140 with 160HP and have around 20 hours in it and so far I love it!

I know there is no substitute for training with a CFI but I do have a few questions about my new Cherokee vs the Cessna I am used to. One is the spin factor. I hear from some that you have to be careful in your turns in a Cherokee not to get the ball to far off because you may get into a tail spin. So knowing this I have been very careful to keep the ball centered at all times. Am I being to careful or is this true?


Welcome to the forum, Tina!

The first thing to consult on spins is the Pilot's Operating Handbook for the airplane. If it says "Spins prohibited" or some such, don't.

But --- as far as the ball being out a tiny bit, keep this in mind: You can't spin if you don't stall.

A spin requires a stall plus yaw ("ball out of center" indicates yaw).

Dont stall, you won't spin.

That said, the ball slightly off rarely results in a spin (though too many pilots will tell you it does. They'd be wrong -- a wing drop is NOT a spin).

In fact the Cessna and Piper trainers are so docile you have to really work at spin entry (In some trainers you can only spin left from a normal spin entry due to left-turning tendencies).

Now, if your airplane has no prohibition against spins, it would be worth the few bucks and the slight anxiety session to go up in your airplane with a competent aerobatics instructor and do some spins -- you'll quickly learn where the line is between controlled and spinning flight.

It's a very good thing to know, and you'll be more relieved than anxious when you're done.
 
Welcome to the forum, Tina. I have flown my Cherokee several hundred hours without paying undue attention to the ball, and I haven't spun it yet. I had to fly it without an inclinometer at all for a bit, and no spin. I have found the Cherokee to be the gentlest, most easily flown aircraft in my experience. It's stall characteristics are so benign that I'm not certain I could get it to spin if I so desired. That said, my bird has vortex generators, which affect stall characteristics mightily. Still, I doubt yours is any worse than your 150, heck my 150 used to drop a wing in the stall and was a handful.
 
Honestly, I have flown Cherokees for over 500 hours, and the only time I touch the rudders is when I am taxiing. Ok, I'm exaggerating a little, but the need for rudder is less than that for a C-150. Even when I am trying to stall the Cherokee with it being uncoordinated, it just sort of lists to that side when recovering. No snap, no spin, just a typical Cherokee lazy mush.
 
Just my personal opinion, I find it easier to get the Cessna in a spin during stalls than the Cherokee. Only did it once in the Cessna from having either too much rudder in or not enough during the stall training excercise, luckily had my instructor in the right seat as it suprised me.
 
I know there is no substitute for training with a CFI but I do have a few questions about my new Cherokee vs the Cessna I am used to. One is the spin factor.

You're not far from Rich Stowell. Take one of his courses and you'd know more about spins than about 99% of your peers.

http://www.richstowell.com/


Trapper John
 
There is a known problem with Cherokee 140's stall/spin recovery with forward center of gravity. Full fuel and two front seats occupied. I don't recall if this only applies to the 140 HP only or also the 160 HP. It was documented in the 1980's but I have not seen much about it since.
 
I am new to this forum and a fairly new pilot with 220 hours in a Cessna 150. I just purchased a Cherokee 140 with 160HP and have around 20 hours in it and so far I love it!
Sounds great!
I know there is no substitute for training with a CFI
Music to my ears...
but I do have a few questions about my new Cherokee vs the Cessna I am used to. One is the spin factor. I hear from some that you have to be careful in your turns in a Cherokee not to get the ball to far off because you may get into a tail spin. So knowing this I have been very careful to keep the ball centered at all times. Am I being to careful or is this true?
It's no more true of a Cherokee than it is of a Cessna 150 -- both are pretty hard to spin without full pro-spin controls on entry. If anything, it's harder to spin a Cherokee 140 -- it took me three tries to hold one in a spin for three full turns on my CFI practical test (back in 1973 when spins were required on the checkride). Keep the ball centered, and it's really "no worries, mate."

However, the Cherokee's low aspect ratio (ratio of chord to span -- shorter, broader wings like your Cherokee's have a lower aspect ratio than longer, narrower wings like a 150's) does increase the amount of adverse yaw you get with the same aileron deflection. Thus, it's a little more demanding of proper rudder inputs when rolling the plane into or out of a turn than the 150. The rudder forces are a touch higher, too. Put them together, and you'll need a bit more push with the leg to keep the ball centered.

Finally, if you really would like to learn more about spins, grab a spin-experienced CFI with and try some. I know the stock Cherokee 140 is approved for spins, and I assume (but can't say for sure without reading the paperwork) that the 160 HP STC (basically changing only the pistons and the prop) shouldn't change that.
 
There is a known problem with Cherokee 140's stall/spin recovery with forward center of gravity. Full fuel and two front seats occupied. I don't recall if this only applies to the 140 HP only or also the 160 HP. It was documented in the 1980's but I have not seen much about it since.
I believe you are confusing the Cherokee 140 with the PA-38 Tomahawk, about which aviation physicist Dr. John Lowry very publicly voiced some spin recovery concerns in that time frame.

To my knowledge, there are no stall/spin recovery issues with the PA28-140 -- BTDT in my CFI training in 1973. If anything, the issue is keeping it in a spin (especially to the right) for three full turns -- relax any control (pitch, roll, or yaw) off the stops, and it pops out into a diving spiral. I shouldn't think the 160HP STC would change that, since it merely replaces the pistons with ones that stick up a bit further (increasing compression ratio) and increases prop pitch some -- don't see how those would change stall/spin recovery any.
 
Thanks for all the great advice. I knew this was going to be a good forum to join. I found it looking for information on crosswind landings. There was a great thread started on should you crab or side slip for a crosswind landing? http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24922
I found all kinds of views that helped me understand the dynamics in a crosswind landings.

I was flying my Cherokee the other day and experience my first crosswind landing. It was a 13 knot crosswind with gusts and the only experience I had was in my Cessna a few years ago with my instructor. I knew what to do but have not practiced.

I was coming in to land in this crosswind and started a side slip but seen my ball go way off to the side and said to myself no I may spin like those other pilots told me. So I crabbed it in keeping that ball centered. I crabbed all the way in and kicked it around and landed. It was a nice landing and I started thinking this is what I should be doing with this plane or is it? It was a nice landing but was different then what my instructor taught me. My Dad is also a retired instructor so I asked him and he said he does the same thing, that he crabs it in and then transitions to a side slip and lands it at the last minute.

So I started looking on the INTERNET to see what others do and found this forum. Thanks guys for your information. I will be calling this guy Rich Stowell see if me and my Dad can take a few lessons I can see it would be very beneficial.
 
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I was coming in to land in this crosswind and started a side slip but seen my ball go way off to the side and said to myself no I may stall like those other pilots told me. .

Having the ball uncentered will not by itself cause a stall. It sounds like you might want to go up with a CFI and get a refresher on slips, skids, spins, and stalls. It is almost impossible to enter a spin from a slip in the aircraft we fly. I am a slip to land guy, rather than a crab to land guy.
 
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I slipped the hell out of my Cherokee the other day, didn't have any trouble at all. Did keep my speed up, though. I agree that the 2-seat spin reference is for a Traumahawk, not a Cherokee. I fly 2 up all the time, and usually with people much larger than I. No sweat. I don't crab on final. I center, uncoordinated if I must, all the away to the ground.
 
I find it easier to get the Cessna in a spin during stalls than the Cherokee.

+1. You have to work fairly hard to get a Cherokee into a spin. I find the 150/152 easier to spin and less forgiving. Both have fairly docile spin characteristics.

Greg
CFII
 
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(I've had a cherokee 140 since 1994)

a few observations wrt the 140, or at least my 140:

The RAM STC for 160hp did not change any requirements/limitations wrt
spins for my 140.

Watch out for the forward CG limit if you have lotsa stuff in the instrument
panel. My 140 will run out of CG limit before going over-gross unless I
carry baggage.

With two people up front (and therefore a forward CG) you can
run out of stabilator when doing full-flap short-field landings.

Enjoy the airplane
 
Sounds great!
Music to my ears...
It's no more true of a Cherokee than it is of a Cessna 150 -- both are pretty hard to spin without full pro-spin controls on entry. If anything, it's harder to spin a Cherokee 140 -- it took me three tries to hold one in a spin for three full turns on my CFI practical test (back in 1973 when spins were required on the checkride). Keep the ball centered, and it's really "no worries, mate."

However, the Cherokee's low aspect ratio (ratio of chord to span -- shorter, broader wings like your Cherokee's have a lower aspect ratio than longer, narrower wings like a 150's) does increase the amount of adverse yaw you get with the same aileron deflection. Thus, it's a little more demanding of proper rudder inputs when rolling the plane into or out of a turn than the 150. The rudder forces are a touch higher, too. Put them together, and you'll need a bit more push with the leg to keep the ball centered.

Finally, if you really would like to learn more about spins, grab a spin-experienced CFI with and try some. I know the stock Cherokee 140 is approved for spins, and I assume (but can't say for sure without reading the paperwork) that the 160 HP STC (basically changing only the pistons and the prop) shouldn't change that.

Ron,

That seems backwards to me and certainly runs counter to the reputation gliders have for adverse yaw. Please explain the aerodymics that make adverse yaw more pronounced with a low aspect ratio wing.
 
Ron,

That seems backwards to me and certainly runs counter to the reputation gliders have for adverse yaw. Please explain the aerodymics that make adverse yaw more pronounced with a low aspect ratio wing.

I also noticed in my Cherokee that it takes WAAAAAY less rudder to stay coordinated than any Cessna I ever flew in.
 
Piper put put a bulletin on how to spin the Cherokee. The FAA adopted it and republished it as an FAA document. I've got a copy but am not going to look for it right now. Just finished an 8 hour drive back from St. Louis and don't have the energy. A Google search might turn it up.
 
If you are bored and want to have fun some day, slow to maneuvering speed.
Slowly cross control to the left, back to center, then to the right.
The airplane keeps flying throughout the maneuver.
 
Piper put put a bulletin on how to spin the Cherokee. The FAA adopted it and republished it as an FAA document. I've got a copy but am not going to look for it right now. Just finished an 8 hour drive back from St. Louis and don't have the energy. A Google search might turn it up.

Piper SB 753 or FAA's ACE-97-02 (From Piper Owner Society Board)
 
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The limiting factor in Cherokee 140 spins is 129 mph. You need to be out of spin and well on the way to recovery by the time you start seeing that kind of speed.....or you will overstress stuff. 129 mph happens VERY quickly if proper antispin inputs are not made. You can make one full turn and then recovery starts pushing 120.
 
Ron,

That seems backwards to me and certainly runs counter to the reputation gliders have for adverse yaw. Please explain the aerodymics that make adverse yaw more pronounced with a low aspect ratio wing.

That's exactly what I was gonna say.

Of course this is airframe specific (as they all have different-sized ailerons and tail surfaces), but all else being equal, a greater wing *span* will result in more adverse yaw due to the increased arm of the ailerons (assuming they're still all the way out at the end of the wing).

I noticed that Ron did not mention chord, but he did mention aspect ratio. I don't understand how aspect ratio would make a difference in adverse yaw except for the wing span issue - That would imply that the wing chord has some effect on it too.

Ron? What are we missing?
 
And Never EVER spin a TraumaHawk!
Don't want to hijack the thread, but some Tomahawks spin just fine, and others do not. The why of that is the issue that has puzzled people. I personally think it's because some wings oilcan more than others due to the minimal number of wing ribs. But that's a discussion for another day.
 
However, the Cherokee's low aspect ratio (ratio of chord to span -- shorter, broader wings like your Cherokee's have a lower aspect ratio than longer, narrower wings like a 150's) does increase the amount of adverse yaw you get with the same aileron deflection. Thus, it's a little more demanding of proper rudder inputs when rolling the plane into or out of a turn than the 150. The rudder forces are a touch higher, too. Put them together, and you'll need a bit more push with the leg to keep the ball centered.

.

I have found out in most PA28 series just the opposite is true, they require less rudder input. You can do standard rate turns with feet flat on the floor and still have the ball centered (or pretty close).
 
I have found out in most PA28 series just the opposite is true, they require less rudder input. You can do standard rate turns with feet flat on the floor and still have the ball centered (or pretty close).

Which is why I made the joke about never using my feet in a Cherokee except for taxiing.
 
S
If you own the aircraft - do not spin it because your Gyro Instruments will suffer.

We run several 172s, all with full gyro panels, and a Citabria 7GCBC, also with full gyros, and we spin these airplanes constantly. (Canadian training requires spin training.) None of them go through an unusual number of gyros compared to the non-spinnable airplanes. It's the cold-soaking they get if they sit outside on a winter's day or night that ruins them; the oil in the bearings (light grease) solidifies and gets squeezed out; the bearings run dry and wear out quickly.

Dan
 
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