LAHSO Why all the fuss?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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So, studying for more pilot stuff and once again, there is much ado about Land and hold short operations.

Can someone explain to me what it is, how it is implemented, and why the fuss?

I have never been asked to land and hold short and if I was asked, I would assume there would be more info like land and hold short of XYZ intersection? Is that correct?

Why is this emphasized so frequently always noting that you can refuse it?
Is there something potentially complex that leads to the emphasis on right to refuse?
Is it just because they are "shortening" the runway?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Why is this emphasized so frequently always noting that you can refuse it?
Is there something potentially complex that leads to the emphasis on right to refuse?
Is it just because they are "shortening" the runway?
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Yes. Just because it's not the whole runway and some operators might not be able to meet the requirement. And ATC doesn't know how every aircraft performs.

And yes, I've been asked to land and hold sort.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
So, studying for more pilot stuff and once again, there is much ado about Land and hold short operations.

Can someone explain to me what it is, how it is implemented, and why the fuss?

I have never been asked to land and hold short and if I was asked, I would assume there would be more info like land and hold short of XYZ intersection? Is that correct?

Why is this emphasized so frequently always noting that you can refuse it?
Is there something potentially complex that leads to the emphasis on right to refuse?
Is it just because they are "shortening" the runway?
Click to expand...
It's a lot more regulated than it was many years ago. When I worked it was used a lot more than now. Any Tower could do it based just on the distances and Aircraft Groups. Nothing was published in Pilot Documents. Why? Enough adventures at the intersection. Not sure how many, if any crashes. But there have been lotsa close ones.
 
Additionally, a number of years back the airlines lobbied for a change that didn’t require them to trust somebody who was potentially untrained to hold short for them, so non-airline hold shorts are a lot less common than they used to be.
 
I don’t know of any fuss for Part 91 ops. If I can oblige I do, if not, “unable.” Now, some military and some commercial ops prohibit it.
 
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Flew into Newport News KPHF recently and they were landing on two runways, two-five and two-two. I was cleared two-five with a LAHSO request which was no problem on the 8003’ runway. Have had the same request at Wilmington KILG a few times.
F1BF29CE-5CAC-4DC1-AC73-3EFFEA63EE81.jpeg
 
At one of our local Class D airports, we frequently have LAHSO going on. I was told it requires two controllers for LAHSO. At times, there is clearly one controller (same person on ground and tower freq) and there is no LAHSO at those times. The longer runway goes from 6900' (full length) to ~ 5200' during LAHSO. While I was still working towards good multi landings, I would at times float down the runway and use up excessive runway. So I would not accept a LAHSO at that time as my proficiency was not where it needed to be for the reduced LAHSO length. Student pilots on solo are not allowed to accept a LAHSO clearance. These particular tower controllers get aggravated (obvious from their words and tone) if told of a student pilot on solo AFTER they have been given a LAHSO clearance and it does not take long to realize that (at least here) better to announce to tower on first contact that you are a student pilot on solo in which case the tower will not give a LAHSO. The shorter runway here does not utilize LAHSO.

In ForeFlight, On the Airport screen, Procedure Tab, Other sub-tab, the LAHSO operation for the airport is listed.

The ATIS on the radio will also announce when LAHSO is going on which should help to avoid surprises.

SixPapaCharlie said:
I would assume there would be more info like land and hold short of XYZ intersection? Is that correct?
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Land and hold short can be for a taxiway. At our local airport, the LAHSO is only used for the crossing runway. The document as mentioned from ForeFlight also lists the "Hold-Short Point" along with available landing distance.
"Cleared to land runway 30, hold short runway 24" (more or less)
Now as pilot, I can "UNABLE" or I can accept it. If I accept it then I better know in advance what I just accepted.
 
One of the risks with accepting (or offering, in the case of ATC) a LAHSO clearance is the "what if". Mostly, "what if" you have to go around for some reason - unstable approach, don't like the landing, forget to put the gear down, anything. Because if you go around, you are going to be crossing that other runway that you're supposed to hold short of. And depending on the operation to the other runway, that could cause a problem. So you have to be pretty confident that you're going to be able to land, and land well, or you need to break it off well before you'd normally go-around.
 
At my home field, I get a LAHSO on almost every single landing...intersecting runways, and here's the weird part: smaller runway used for airlines, bigger runway used for GA traffic (mainly due to the GA hangars at far end of bigger runway). Because the LAHSO is being given to GA traffic on the bigger runway, there is something like 6500 feet usable before the hold short line.
 
Country Flier said:
At my home field, I get a LAHSO on almost every single landing...intersecting runways, and here's the weird part: smaller runway used for airlines, bigger runway used for GA traffic (mainly due to the GA hangars at far end of bigger runway). Because the LAHSO is being given to GA traffic on the bigger runway, there is something like 6500 feet usable before the hold short line.
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I have flown in there.
 
RussR said:
One of the risks with accepting (or offering, in the case of ATC) a LAHSO clearance is the "what if". Mostly, "what if" you have to go around for some reason - unstable approach, don't like the landing, forget to put the gear down, anything. Because if you go around, you are going to be crossing that other runway that you're supposed to hold short of. And depending on the operation to the other runway, that could cause a problem. So you have to be pretty confident that you're going to be able to land, and land well, or you need to break it off well before you'd normally go-around.
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4e17945e4f7c252b05630451cf6da097.jpg



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crash7 said:
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Of course accepting a LAHSO does not prevent you from going around, that wouldn't be safe. But I think it's pretty clear that if you accept a LAHSO, and then do go around, that could create an unsafe situation. So while you technically have that option, I stand by my statement that you have to be pretty confident that you'll not have to go around. It seems logical that's one of the main reasons (if not THE main reason) that student pilots aren't allowed to do LAHSO.
 
RussR said:
I stand by my statement that you have to be pretty confident that you'll not have to go around.
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I can't think of a time when I wasn't pretty confident I wouldn't have to go around, so I'm not sure that's a super useful metric.
 
LAHSO is common at Sarasota airport. If you can’t accept it could take forever to get in.
 
172andyou said:
I can't think of a time when I wasn't pretty confident I wouldn't have to go around, so I'm not sure that's a super useful metric.
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Triple negative? Makes my brain hurt. I think you're saying that you're usually pretty confident you'll be able to land. I agree, of course. But you were a student pilot at one time, and at least for me, there were definitely times when I wasn't confident in my ability to land without going around. So, student pilots are excluded from this, which makes sense.

But you've never been high and fast and thought "you know, this might not work", or there's a strong crosswind that might just exceed your or your airplane's limits? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

And I also said ATC has to be pretty confident. Get a pilot coming in who's having trouble on the radio, maybe doesn't speak English well, maybe can't hold headings, is wandering around coming down final, is obviously high or low, etc., and I can definitely see where ATC might think again about clearing that aircraft for LAHSO. Probably doesn't happen too much, but it's still something for the controller to consider. How about emergency aircraft? I don't know if ATC is allowed to issue LAHSO to emergency aircraft or not, but it certainly seems worthy of consideration - or even for aircraft having non-emergency issues that require caution.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Additionally, a number of years back the airlines lobbied for a change that didn’t require them to trust somebody who was potentially untrained to hold short for them, so non-airline hold shorts are a lot less common than they used to be.
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That doesn’t surprise me that the airlines lobbied to have it more regulated.
 
I got a LAHSO when I landed at KTPA in a C-162. Somehow I managed to stop it in the measly 5000 feet I had to work with. ;)
 
Salty said:
I got a LAHSO when I landed at KTPA in a C-162. Somehow I managed to stop it in the measly 5000 feet I had to work with. ;)
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On the opposite end of operations I was departing out of CLE and they asked if I could depart from (what is now) L3 on 24L when I was in a Cherokee 180. I had ~5000ft to work with. :D
 
I always thought is was odd. I’ve landed on specific spots on runways / taxiways in helicopters but a runway with a hold short instruction? Nope, can’t do it.
 
Airlines. The FAA is all about airlines. And getting you ready to be an airline pilot. Look at the pictures in the link posted by Mr. 1200 - all of the aircraft depicted are airliners. I suspect that LASHO is something of a big deal if you are flying an A380.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Airlines. The FAA is all about airlines. And getting you ready to be an airline pilot. Look at the pictures in the link posted by Mr. 1200 - all of the aircraft depicted are airliners. I suspect that LASHO is something of a big deal if you are flying an A380.
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It really comes down to the individual facility and type aircraft involved. Not all ATC facilities can use LASHO and even then, only certain aircraft.

Then, it also comes down to individual services / companies and what’s listed in their regs / Ops Specs or Ops manual. It’s prohibited in the Army for “safety concerns.” I know the other services have similar restrictions. Can’t do it in my current job either.
 
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At certain airports, a runway crossing occurs at such a point that one or both runways have a largely usable amount of runway prior to the intersection. The diagram of PHF above is a perfect example.

When approved, with appropriate airport markings (hold shorts on the runway) and etc. controllers at an airport can use LAHSO as a way to increase efficiency and allow for the use of both runways simultaneously.

Runway safety is obviously a critical area (perhaps the most critical) as it is the smallest and highest speed area that every aircraft needs to get to.
 
Are we flying a C-172 or a 777?

It’s like equipment to go hunting, rabbits or a grizzly hunt?? It all depends.
 
Just practice for "High wing over the lake, turn to final now, land on the orange dot, do not go past the green dot."
 
Ive only been given a Lahso once. Kgrb had a crj landing on 24 but cleared me for a straight in on 36. Was a non issue as the crj was down and on the ramp before I made it to short final.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Airlines. The FAA is all about airlines. And getting you ready to be an airline pilot. Look at the pictures in the link posted by Mr. 1200 - all of the aircraft depicted are airliners. I suspect that LASHO is something of a big deal if you are flying an A380.
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The other morning, I watched a Challenger 300 land on less runway than a 172. The pro pilot set it down exactly on the touchdown zone on speed. The CFI and his minion touched down 2,000 feet down the runway, even after crossing the threshold at about 50’. Apparently neither of them has read the POH.
 
ateamer said:
Because there are too many pilots who blaze down final at 80 in a 172 and float for half a mile before the first of three bounces.
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And miss the runway and land beyond the runway in a ditch. :D
 
just curious, but WHO is fussing over LAHSO?
 
eman1200 said:
just curious, but WHO is fussing over LAHSO?
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Just seems like there are a lot of questions (or more realistically, the same question over and over phrased different ways) about it.
I recall that from the Private as well.
 
RussR said:
Triple negative? Makes my brain hurt. I think you're saying that you're usually pretty confident you'll be able to land.
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Actually, I think he is saying he is never confident that he can land.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Just seems like there are a lot of questions (or more realistically, the same question over and over phrased different ways) about it.
I recall that from the Private as well.
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On the FAA written, sample tests or both? Could be it was a point of emphasis when they were made. There were a lot of changes made to the regulations about it years ago. I’ll pull a number out of the air and say 20 give or take maybe 10. I’d say maybe the same thing about Taxi Procedures.
 
Seanaldinho said:
At certain airports, a runway crossing occurs at such a point that one or both runways have a largely usable amount of runway prior to the intersection. The diagram of PHF above is a perfect example.

When approved, with appropriate airport markings (hold shorts on the runway) and etc. controllers at an airport can use LAHSO as a way to increase efficiency and allow for the use of both runways simultaneously.

Runway safety is obviously a critical area (perhaps the most critical) as it is the smallest and highest speed area that every aircraft needs to get to.
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Do you remember about when the big changes were made? Runway markings, publishing it the A/FD, on Airport Diagrams etc.
 
sarangan said:
Actually, I think he is saying he is never confident that he can land.
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I think he’s saying he’s usually confident he can land. I know I’m absolutely certain I can land. It’s pretty much guaranteed to happen every time I take off.
 
Seanaldinho said:
I don't. But going through the old orders at least back to 2000 the markings were required and it had to be an approved procedure.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...x.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/4341
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Thanks. I followed some links. Here's a couple. More 7110 series orders and GENOTS are mentioned. I didn't keep on Googling. But everything indicates that it became a 'big deal' around 2000.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.118.pdf
https://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety Briefings _ Presentations/Flight Ops - LAHSO Notice 7110 March 1999.pdf
 
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