Chinese Spy Balloon Flying Over the U.S.

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Not a problem if the envelope rotates ~60 degrees while the payload rotates 30,


Probably not even that much. The torque to turn the payload would have an equal and opposite torque reacted into the envelope and its structure. Angular acceleration = torque / moment of inertia. I suspect that the envelope has a much larger moment of inertia than the payload, and if so its acceleration would be pretty small.

And if that were a concern, a reactionless design (misnomer; there's always a reaction, the reaction just goes elsewhere) isn't that complex. I'd just be surprised they'd accept the added weight penalty.

BTW, everyone seems to be wondering why they'd use a balloon when they have satellites. If it's purely for imagery, that's a fair question, but there are other things that might be better sensed from a slow moving balloon at a lower altitude, like radiation.
 
Generally, if you're going to try to listen in on someone else's transmission, you need an antenna at least as big as the one that the other guy's use to receive the same signal.


Not necessarily. Consider range and inverse square law. If you're intercepting a signal intended for someone hundreds of miles away but you're only 60,000 feet away, you'd hear the transmitter easily, even if the transmission were using a directional antenna.

But I sorta doubt that's the purpose. The DoD has apparently known about similar balloons before, and stayed quiet about it. Likely they were confident they could prevent the ballons from seeing or hearing certain things, and perhaps they could control what it did sense.

It's a pretty complex game and difficult to know the truth.
 
Winnie the Pooh is a really nice touch for that graphic. It's the meme for Xi Jinping, and it annoys him so much that the phrase for Winnie the Pooh has actually been blocked on social media in China for five years already.

iu
 
Winnie the Pooh is a really nice touch for that graphic. It's the meme for Xi Jinping, and it annoys him so much that the phrase for Winnie the Pooh has actually been blocked on social media in China for five years already.

iu

Bingo, we're firing for effect now. We're all hands on deck over on Team DoD meme factory. The insta pages are going viral as we speak. :D
 
Winnie the Pooh is a really nice touch for that graphic. It's the meme for Xi Jinping, and it annoys him so much that the phrase for Winnie the Pooh has actually been blocked on social media in China for five years already.

iu
I forgot about about the Pooh thing in China. Someone has an eye for detail, lining up the stars properly on the patch.
 
I forgot about about the Pooh thing in China. Someone has an eye for detail, lining up the stars properly on the patch.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that the five stars arranged just so are from China's flag. That is really nice.

It looks like the combination of the stars and Pooh shows up in quite a few memes. Here's one:

iu
 
BTW, everyone seems to be wondering why they'd use a balloon when they have satellites. If it's purely for imagery, that's a fair question, but there are other things that might be better sensed from a slow moving balloon at a lower altitude, like radiation.
Yes, that's a good point. Being a space guy, I tend to prefer it for everything from measuring signal levels to lighting your cee-gar.

But...again we're at the point of wondering why a balloon hanging in plain sight, vs. a step van (with an Amazon or Fedex logo on it) driving box patterns outside Air Force bases or whatever. 60,000 feet is about eleven miles; surely one could drive closer to sites of interest. Or, like I've said, just buy an old Cherokee and put the gear in it.

Putting my tinfoil hat on, I *can* think of a mission where the balloon made sense. Say they introduced a harmless traceant into the atmosphere that simulates the release of a bio agent, but dissipates in a couple of days. Balloon would make more sense, then, because you'd need a whole fleet of cars trying to collect data before the traceant disappears.

But without my tinfoil hat, it doesn't make much sense....

Ron Wanttaja
 
But...again we're at the point of wondering why a balloon hanging in plain sight, vs. a step van (with an Amazon or Fedex logo on it) driving box patterns outside Air Force bases or whatever. 60,000 feet is about eleven miles; surely one could drive closer to sites of interest.


It’s possible that some things may be well shielded in lateral directions, and located a fair distance from public roads, but more exposed vertically. And the airspace might be restricted or prohibited, limiting what a wandering Cherokee could do.

But I won’t speculate further.
 
I wonder how Canada would shoot down something at 60,000 feet. They have the CF-18, not the F-15 or F-22.

Don't know what Canada has for surface-to-air missiles on its territory.

I was simply pointing out that on Friday Canada had reported a second balloon. Haven't heard anything more about it. Was there another (besides the one reported over Latin America) or were they just confused? I have no idea ...
 
Yes, that's a good point. Being a space guy, I tend to prefer it for everything from measuring signal levels to lighting your cee-gar.

But...again we're at the point of wondering why a balloon hanging in plain sight, vs. a step van (with an Amazon or Fedex logo on it) driving box patterns outside Air Force bases or whatever.

Ron Wanttaja


Don’t think for a second that those guys (and very attractive girls) aren’t out there collecting data.
 
The reason for waiting until the balloon was over the ocean was the risk of wild fires triggered by the Jewish space laser that actually shot it down if it were used over land.
 
Definitely Tin Foil Hattery - The government has us all covered, we can go back to watching Netflix...specially since Ron says of course there are satellites that could collect this data anyway...

"Rebekah Koffler, a former Defense Intelligence Agency officer specializing in foreign aerospace, said there is a "high probability that the Chinese government exfiltrated sensitive US data" through its spy balloon.

"This brazen intelligence operation mounted by Beijing, targeting the US homeland, almost certainly enabled the Chinese military to glean critical insights into the Biden Administration’s policy and posture towards China, and President Biden’s ‘red lines,’ when it comes to foreign aerospace assets, breaching of US sovereign airspace," Koffler told Fox News Digital. "These insights are very useful for China in developing deterrence strategies for dissuading the United States from intervening in China’s future aggressive operations against Taiwan."
 
US balloon over China, when? We should definitely make this an Olympic sport...
The Chinese came waaaaay late to the game, by almost 70 years.

"Project Genetrix, also known as WS-119L, was a United States Air Force program designed to launch General Mills manufactured surveillance balloons over China, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union to take aerial photographs and collect intelligence. The Genetrix balloons reached altitudes of 50,000–100,000 feet (15–30 km), well above any contemporary fighter plane."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Genetrix

(From another article linked to the Project Genetrix one):

"When the Soviet government filed an angry complaint with the US government, the US government attributed the overflights to "navigational difficulties"..."

Sounds familiar.

Ron Wanttaja
 
-- Incoming random unverifiable information --

You're not shooting this balloon down with bullets. I did some quick "back of the envelope" calcs

Service ceiling on an A-10 warthog is 50,000 feet. If you could somehow magically get the warthog perfectly vertical firing a round from the GAU-8 straight up, you could get the projectile to reach an altitude (AGL) of about 115k to 120k feet (3324 ft/sec muzzle velocity with a 1.5 lbs round).

But I think we all know you're not going to get an A-10 vertical at its service ceiling. But maybe you could get it vertical at 25k feet? The problem is that the atmosphere is much more dense and there is more air to push out of the way. If you fire that same projectile straight up from 25,000 feet, it's going to reach an apex of ~50k feet. The balloon was at 60k+.

I did the math with the warthog GAU-8 rounds because they're very heavy and will carry momentum further as the atmosphere attempts to slow them down.

Conclusion - You're not shooting this thing down with bullets.
 
-- Incoming random unverifiable information --

You're not shooting this balloon down with bullets. I did some quick "back of the envelope" calcs

Service ceiling on an A-10 warthog is 50,000 feet. If you could somehow magically get the warthog perfectly vertical firing a round from the GAU-8 straight up, you could get the projectile to reach an altitude (AGL) of about 115k to 120k feet (3324 ft/sec muzzle velocity with a 1.5 lbs round).

But I think we all know you're not going to get an A-10 vertical at its service ceiling. But maybe you could get it vertical at 25k feet? The problem is that the atmosphere is much more dense and there is more air to push out of the way. If you fire that same projectile straight up from 25,000 feet, it's going to reach an apex of ~50k feet. The balloon was at 60k+.

I did the math with the warthog GAU-8 rounds because they're very heavy and will carry momentum further as the atmosphere attempts to slow them down.

Conclusion - You're not shooting this thing down with bullets.

Certainly not easily, and I think that was the other part of the equation. The military and the administration needed a high certainty of success. They didn't need the public black eye of shooting and missing, not from the citizens of this country or China.
 
Even more likely, why would they not jam anything the balloon was trying to transmit.

So much of the public assumes this thing was just talking freely to Beijing. In reality, it probably wasn't getting anything out.

Jamming the thing would not have been that easy. You'd have to point your jammer at the receiver. If it was a satellite, you'd have to track the satellite; not sure if our jamming infrastructure supports that. Remember, it should be along the same vector as the balloon-satellite link. The other possibility, as I've mentioned in a past post, is that it was "phoning home"....using the US cell network. Probably could detect that it was doing that; interfering with it would again be problematic since you'd be taking down huge swaths of ordinary civilian communications. They could probably determine what user ID was being used and get the cell companies to inhibit it. Though, if *I* were designing such a system, I'd send it up with hundreds of "numbers" and use a different one for each transmission.

It’s possible that some things may be well shielded in lateral directions, and located a fair distance from public roads, but more exposed vertically. And the airspace might be restricted or prohibited, limiting what a wandering Cherokee could do.

But I won’t speculate further.
That's my job. Or it used to be, before I retired.... :)

The thought that the sites might be shielded horizontally but not vertically is intriguing. However, it does seem a bit of a stretch that the people involved with approving nuclear sites would approve such an approach. "Why are the pigeons on the roof glowing?" :)

Ironically, though, this harks back to my first post-Air Force job: Working on the original "Shell game" basing system for the Peacekeeper missile (then called the MX). They were going to build hundreds of launch sites around a big racetrack, and use a special truck to deposit the actual missile in one of the sites, moving it occasionally. They had mass simulators, etc. so the truck would still look like it was fully loaded when it didn't have a missile.

But a system that could detect the radiation from the warheads carried by the actual missile? Might have worked.

Of course, we never built the system. But fixed sites like we're talking about don't spring up overnight. Satellite imagery will note the facilities being built, and unusual features such as heavy shielding. Classic intelligence work would uncover the contractors, and gain insight into the design of the facility. The balloon would only be useful if we WERE running some sort of "shell game". But if that's the case, now that the balloon is splashed, what prevents them from moving the "pea" to one of the other sites?

Finally, I am reminded of the kerfuffle in Australia, recently, when a very tiny, very HOT radioactive source "fell off a truck" somewhere along a 1000-km road. If I recall, they used vehicle-based sensors to find it. Seems like aircraft would have been better, but (of course) a helicopter might have blown the thing off the road.

Ron Wanttaja
 
-- Incoming random unverifiable information --

You're not shooting this balloon down with bullets. I did some quick "back of the envelope" calcs...

{snip}

Conclusion - You're not shooting this thing down with bullets.
Whatever happened to that 747 with a laser on the nose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

Seems like it would be worth pursuing a tad more development.
 
I was hoping they had a plan to poke a small hole in this thing (I know :rolleyes:) and as it slowly descends to the earth go capture it with a copter using a large grappling hook (kinda like in a James movie) or something like that ... :D
 
Whatever happened to that 747 with a laser on the nose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

Seems like it would be worth pursuing a tad more development.

Right in the wiki page you linked

" Funding for the program was cut in 2010 and the program was canceled in December 2011.[5] It made its final flight on February 14, 2012, to Davis–Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona, to be kept in storage at the "Boneyard" by the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group. It was ultimately scrapped in September 2014 after all usable parts were removed."
 
Right in the wiki page you linked

" Funding for the program was cut in 2010 and the program was canceled in December 2011.[5] It made its final flight on February 14, 2012, to Davis–Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona, to be kept in storage at the "Boneyard" by the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group. It was ultimately scrapped in September 2014 after all usable parts were removed."
Well, duh, I went back and found that wiki page and added it to the post. I meant, like I wonder if there is any further development happening.
 
I was hoping they had a plan to poke a small hole in this thing (I know :rolleyes:) and as it slowly descends to the earth go capture it with a copter using a large grappling hook (kinda like in a James movie) or something like that ... :D

Yes, the problem you are thinking of is that the ballon was said be be about 30 meters across, so if you approximate it as a sphere, maybe 2,800 square meters of surface area. Poking hundreds of 30 mm holes in it (0.00086 square meters each) isn't going to give it much of a deflation rate.
 
There is a TFR just offshore near Myrtle Beach. Me thinks they is hunting some parts that were "made in China" ...
 
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