I Scared Myself......

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Tim A Dodson

Filing Flight Plan
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Tim
So a week ago I was coming home solo from a weekend trip to visit some family. VFR all the way but there were some clouds at home so I was checking weather all the way. As a fairly new instrument rated pilot I was briefing for my home field and a couple nearby airports that were reporting better weather. 50nm out and home field was reporting overcast 4,000 and a 1,000 scattered so I made the go decision and requested a pop up IFR into my home airport. This was my third actual approach...... as I made a turn to join the approach I reached the top of the overcast layer and transitioned my eyes to my instruments. As I entered the clouds I heard it and could see water droplets hitting the windscreen. Looking back that was a distraction and led to me scaring myself. Within a few seconds I could hear a change and that brought me back to a hard focus on the instruments. I was in a right bank and my 500fpm decent was now 1,500fpm. Now I know what spatial disorientation feels like because my body told me I was fine, but I defiantly was not. I could hear my instructor(s) telling me to trust my instruments and I did but my arms were fighting me the whole way. I got straight and level almost immediately, but took everything I had to make the correction back to the left to get back on course. As soon as I was stabilized again I popped out of the overcast and took a deep breath. We don't have a lot of weather here but I will be grabbing an instructor and hunting down some actual conditions to help me regain a bit of confidence. Thanks for letting me vent.
 
This is an example of the difference between current and proficient. Besides getting some more instruction, get out and practice as often as you can and file every time you fly cross country vs going VFR even if the weather is VMC. If you have access to a Sim, that can be a very useful and less expensive tool too.
 
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Good job at saving it. Better job at realizing you need more work in actual.
buddy of mine pushed me hard to get up in the junk when I got my IFR. Kept saying that I now have a license to go up and scare myself.
I was fortunate that my CFII would call me to go up in the junk. Hard IMC, take off into low ceilings, shooting approaches that never had a chance at making visual contact to just go missed in the junk. Always would say doing this now will save my life one day.
Still try to go and practice and be in the junk as much as I can admittedly, this winter has been long and will likely plan on going up in the junk with CFII in spring to shake off the cobwebs.
 
Simulated IMC is a lousy substitute for actual IMC, but it’s all we have for instrument training, at least much of the time.

It is so very important for instrument students to experience real clouds and real weather. It’s not terribly hard, but if you’ve never been there, actual IMC can really mess with pilots.

- Martin
 
Good job recognizing the situation and recovering. Also good that you plan to get more training and practice. It's a world of difference with an instructor knowing you can remove the hood and doing it by yourself in actual.

However, one thing to emphasize is that spatial disorientation issues are mainly physiological. They can happen to you regardless of how much proficency (or currency) you might have. The key, as you know, is rigorous scan discipline and trust (and crosscheck) your instruments. Plus keeping your head still during climbs, descents, and turns is also key.

Several years ago I departed San Jose into low ceilings on the Sunol departure. This requires a 97° climbing right turn 1.8 DME past the SJC VOR which sits near the end of the runway. I made the mistake of turning my head slightly to glance at something instead of just moving my eyes. After I turned my head, I could have sworn that I was doing aileron rolls to the right. Rigid adherence to my scan and trusting my instruments kept me safe and on course for the SID, but it was really freaky.

Whenever possible, I try to keep proficient by doing approaches in actual. Easier to do in the SF Bay area due to the fairly benign marine layer, but it's great if you have the opportunity. I particularly love it when it's raining with some turbulence (but no icing or T-storms!) That's rare here, but when it happens, I go flying!
 
Tim A Dodson said:
Now I know what spatial disorientation feels like because my body told me I was fine, but I defiantly was not.
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That typo is somehow so appropriate. ;)

I’d recommend spending some of that time in actual practicing distractions…drop your pencil, dig it out from under your seat. Dig your flashlight out of your flight bag in the back seat. And yes, maybe one in ten times when you do that, your instructor can put you into an unusual attitude.

Trim is your friend. If you can’t trim the airplane to fly straight and level, hands off for 30 seconds or more without exceeding ACS standards, practice more. The airplane wants to go back to straight and level. You need to force it to do what you did.

Keep us informed.
 
Now that you got that out of the way, you won't be doing that again now, will you?.
 
But did he let it “get out of shape” intentionally as you imply? He didn’t “do” anything, he experienced what all instrument rated pilots experience at some point. Spatial D is a physiological fact, not something we do intentionally. I read his post as he properly recognized, confirmed, and recovered. What am I missing that you saw?
 
Set your personal minimums that you are comfortable with,and as you fly more actual you can lower the minimums. Some time in a sim May help , yourself in the clouds . And practice your scans untill your comfortable.
 
Tim A Dodson said:
So a week ago I was coming home solo from a weekend trip to visit some family. VFR all the way but there were some clouds at home so I was checking weather all the way. As a fairly new instrument rated pilot I was briefing for my home field and a couple nearby airports that were reporting better weather. 50nm out and home field was reporting overcast 4,000 and a 1,000 scattered so I made the go decision and requested a pop up IFR into my home airport. This was my third actual approach...... as I made a turn to join the approach I reached the top of the overcast layer and transitioned my eyes to my instruments. As I entered the clouds I heard it and could see water droplets hitting the windscreen. Looking back that was a distraction and led to me scaring myself. Within a few seconds I could hear a change and that brought me back to a hard focus on the instruments. I was in a right bank and my 500fpm decent was now 1,500fpm. Now I know what spatial disorientation feels like because my body told me I was fine, but I defiantly was not. I could hear my instructor(s) telling me to trust my instruments and I did but my arms were fighting me the whole way. I got straight and level almost immediately, but took everything I had to make the correction back to the left to get back on course. As soon as I was stabilized again I popped out of the overcast and took a deep breath. We don't have a lot of weather here but I will be grabbing an instructor and hunting down some actual conditions to help me regain a bit of confidence. Thanks for letting me vent.
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One of the most challenging times of instrument flying is the transition from visual to instruments, and the transition from instrument back to visual. Many pilots have killed themselves during these transitions because they were neither on instruments nor visual. It takes about 5 minutes to become fully accustomed to instruments, so absolute focus is important. I teach students to be very decisive during these transitions. Before entering IMC, make a decisive transition to instrument, and don't look around for glimpses of the ground. Similarly, on the approach, stay on instruments until you have positively and clearly identified the runway. Wandering around looking at a blinking light assuming it might be the runway and descending below minimum is a classic IFR accident scenario.
 
jimf15e said:
But did he let it “get out of shape” intentionally as you imply? He didn’t “do” anything, he experienced what all instrument rated pilots experience at some point. Spatial D is a physiological fact, not something we do intentionally. I read his post as he properly recognized, confirmed, and recovered. What am I missing that you saw?
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Spatial D is a “physiological fact”, but it doesn’t mandate a loss of aircraft control, even temporarily.
 
jimf15e said:
But did he let it “get out of shape” intentionally as you imply? He didn’t “do” anything, he experienced what all instrument rated pilots experience at some point. Spatial D is a physiological fact, not something we do intentionally. I read his post as he properly recognized, confirmed, and recovered. What am I missing that you saw?
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I didn't imply that at all. He let it get out of shape unintentionally., that's the insidious way to die. We're all glad he caught it in time. We know how to prevent having to make that catch; get on the guages before you get in the clouds, kep up your scan, stay on them, keep up your scan and believe your eyes. He made the mistake of not doing that, I bet he won't do so again.
I had my own version right after getting rated on departure into a low ovc. Almost immediately got a reroute, and with no a/p to help got distracted and found myself in a right bank while changing the flplan on the gps.
Fly the airplane.get on the guages. keep up the scan. Live long and prosper.
 
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If someone tells me they’ve never gotten out of sorts in IMC early on in their instrument days, I’d struggle to believe them.

It’s one of those things you’ll do once and not do again. I remember coming back from somewhere as a less than 200 hour pilot and ATC refusing to let me descend or climb because of military traffic. Summer build up, no breaks, getting beat to death. Finally, I got a climb and was so desperate to get out of it, I almost stalled the plane.

As someone else said. The key is to make the decision to go on instruments and to not try to cheat. If you try to look outside while getting beat up in IMC, you are setting yourself up for trouble.

Another key is resolving yourself to being in IMC and on instruments. If you start freaking yourself out wondering when you’ll break out, that’s not good either.

It gets much easier with practice. And if you start flying bigger aircraft it becomes even more of a non-event.

Lastly, there’s no shame in making your life easier. Even now, I’ll ask for a deviation sometimes to stay out of prolonged summer build up if I can’t get above it. Passengers don’t like getting their brains beat in.
 
Bonchie said:
If someone tells me they’ve never gotten out of sorts in IMC early on in their instrument days, I’d struggle to believe them.
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Didn't happen to me at all during training or the early days, but it absolutely did happen once many years into having my ticket. It was a night IMC flight...some sort of windshear yawed the plane from outta nowhere just as I was leaning over to pick up something from the right seat. First and only time getting the leans. I had to fight incredibly hard to not 'level the plane' which was already level. It felt like I was rolling hard to the right. After fighting it for a few seconds (and still entering a small bank several times), I levelled the wings and let go of the stick and just kept staring at the AI. It didn't take long for the feeling to subside.

A couple of years ago, I had an unexpected missed approach at my home airport, rough ride on the climb out with a torrential downpour during the climbing right turn as required by the missed. It was about the busiest I've been in terms of stick & rudder workload, and there were a few conflicting sensations (nowhere near as bad as the one described above). It wasn't a big deal, but it was hard work. Both instances made me realize how, without appropriate training, it would be oh-so-easy to become a statistic. For the many hours I've sat in IMC in either smooth conditions or light chop, the difference in workload between those cases (which was negligible compared to regular VMC) and the situations described above was ASTOUNDING.

Not all IMC is created equal.
 
coma24 said:
It wasn't a big deal, but it was hard work. Both instances made me realize how, without appropriate training, it would be oh-so-easy to become a statistic. For the many hours I've sat in IMC in either smooth conditions or light chop, the difference in workload between those cases (which was negligible compared to regular VMC) and the situations described above was ASTOUNDING.

Not all IMC is created equal.
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Indeed. Reason I don't 'seek out' recreational IMC; certainly no longer pull the stupid stunts I did pre-military as a sub 300 hours immortal 20-some year old. I'm putting in a second AI I got sitting on my desk when I get back from the Chicago trip. Finally getting on the AC 91-75 train after many years playing with the devil behind this needle-ball-airspeed nonsense. I'm the first one to admit I've been a hypocrite about it in recent years, so anybody I can save by advocating 91-75, it's not wasted time for me.

As the older version of myself, with 2 decades of flying and all the lettered quals at work I didn't use to have 20 years ago, I realize how lucky I've been and didn't die several times before. It's a humbling realization. As such, I no longer kid myself with the proposition of extended n-b-a time, swinging around LIFR, ATC apathetically climb-vectoring you into an early spatial D grave, if caught no-AI in the goo with my most precious cargo (me and mine) onboard. I'm a convert, the preamble of 91-75 100% sold me on it. That and burying several friend .mil pros to spatial-D in much more capable aircraft, and much more public obituaries. Digressing.

And it's not training alone, it's recency and fatigue/task saturation levels, especially single-pilot. Spatial D kills pros with enough frequency (to me) as it is, you'd think hobbyists wouldn't be so flippant about it. I get it, it's a novelty when you do it so sparingly, without the additional stressors that are just a Tuesday in the life of a paid pilot, good bad or indifferent. Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth (Panel degrade, physiological derived/fatigue et al). And 91-75 is right, most people statistically choke on the clutch, but they don't put that one on YT of course. I got nothing to prove at this juncture of my life and career, lest I be accused of advocating cowardice towards IMC; I just can think of healthier things to do for kicks in VMC. TETO.

--brk brk--

OP, glad you experienced that it in a more controlled environment and lived to tell about it. Hopefully you gained a respect for the unnatural environment it is for humans. Consider the degree and necessity of IMC in your recreational life, especially when you decide to do it single pilot. Mitigate degree of exposure as required. Establish personal minimums you are comfortable with, establish a recurrency schedule with an instructor on board, and my personal plug, equip your airplane with more than one attitude indicator IAW AC 91-75. Good luck to ya. Stay safe, enjoy a long life of flying. Cheers.
 
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This is one of the reasons I have given up on keeping IFR current. I have the rating, but I've chosen to stop using the privileges it offers. I found flying solid IFR to be a lot of work, partially because I don't have an autopilot. Even with an autopilot, flying single engine IFR over the inhospitable terrain where I live adds a layer of risk that just isn't acceptable to me anymore. My decision to give up IFR flying is also partially due to retiring. I no longer have any schedule pressures, so if an X/C flight is delayed a few days because of weather, it doesn't really matter. My flying is now 100% for fun, and IFR just wasn't fun anymore. I do spend most of my flight reviews on IFR skills in the slight case I might need them in an emergency, but given my current approach to flight planning, such an emergency is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm glad I got the rating over 30 years ago, but I'm also glad to be in a place in my life where it isn't needed.
 
Tim A Dodson said:
So a week ago I was coming home solo from a weekend trip to visit some family. VFR all the way but there were some clouds at home so I was checking weather all the way. As a fairly new instrument rated pilot I was briefing for my home field and a couple nearby airports that were reporting better weather. 50nm out and home field was reporting overcast 4,000 and a 1,000 scattered so I made the go decision and requested a pop up IFR into my home airport. This was my third actual approach...... as I made a turn to join the approach I reached the top of the overcast layer and transitioned my eyes to my instruments. As I entered the clouds I heard it and could see water droplets hitting the windscreen. Looking back that was a distraction and led to me scaring myself. Within a few seconds I could hear a change and that brought me back to a hard focus on the instruments. I was in a right bank and my 500fpm decent was now 1,500fpm. Now I know what spatial disorientation feels like because my body told me I was fine, but I defiantly was not. I could hear my instructor(s) telling me to trust my instruments and I did but my arms were fighting me the whole way. I got straight and level almost immediately, but took everything I had to make the correction back to the left to get back on course. As soon as I was stabilized again I popped out of the overcast and took a deep breath. We don't have a lot of weather here but I will be grabbing an instructor and hunting down some actual conditions to help me regain a bit of confidence. Thanks for letting me vent.
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Biggest congratulation among all of them here is that you were man enough to say "I will be grabbing an instructor and hunting down some actual conditions to help me regain a bit of confidence."
Machismo and "I don't need nobody else tellin' me what to do!" is the biggest contributor to accidents, in any space, much less the one where we're fighting the Law of Gravity. Good on you, man! I'm just now starting lessons. This is how I aspire to keep my flying - grounded (excuse the terribly awful pun) in reality of my experience.
 
Flyhound said:
This is one of the reasons I have given up on keeping IFR current. I have the rating, but I've chosen to stop using the privileges it offers. I found flying solid IFR to be a lot of work, partially because I don't have an autopilot...I do spend most of my flight reviews on IFR skills in the slight case I might need them in an emergency, but given my current approach to flight planning, such an emergency is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm glad I got the rating over 30 years ago, but I'm also glad to be in a place in my life where it isn't needed.
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I would make an argument that being current for IFR is a safety enhancement, because you can use it legally and confidently if needed. Being IFR-rated but not current (much less proficient) may result in a false sense of security in a VFR-into-IFR situation. Being retired is an advantage in being able to schedule time to get current and more proficient.

The reality is that flying in solid IMC for extended periods of time in a light single is very exhausting, but the real value in the IFR rating for a light single private pilot is the ability to do an IFR climb above MVFR conditions, and an easy IFR descent or approach at the destination as required. This ability opens up a lot of otherwise benign weather for trips, largely prevents unpleasant VFR-into-IFR encounters, and generally takes all of the stress out of MVFR flight.

Having said all that, it is definitely important to recognize ones limitations. As we all age, it is important to realistically self-assess. I'm still maintaining IFR currency in my retirement years, but don't fly in solid continuous IMC as much as I did when I was 25-30 years younger. And I have an autopilot now, as well as GPS and in-flight WX guidance that wasn't available 30 years ago.
 
Martin Pauly said:
Simulated IMC is a lousy substitute for actual IMC,
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Not when you do it at night over Lake Michigan. Or even a nice hazy day.

Can always tell when someone is cheating. Hit the shoreline westbound and within 20 seconds the plane starts dancing like Fred Astaire.

One thing I always did when I started getting SD - and maybe I'm a freak because it works for me. Violently shake my head in all directions and get back on the instruments. Usually enough to get rid of whatever erroneous sensation my ears were telling me.
 
EdFred said:
Not when you do it at night over Lake Michigan. Or even a nice hazy day.
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I wouldn't call those scenarios "simulated IMC". Those conditions can require flying by reference to the instruments, and I agree that can be equivalent to flying through clouds for the purpose of instrument training.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
I wouldn't call those scenarios "simulated IMC". Those conditions can require flying by reference to the instruments, and I agree that can be equivalent to flying through clouds for the purpose of instrument training.

- Martin
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Well they still have the hood on, and if it was off, they could see stars and look left and right and see the lights and the shoreline. So still simulated.
 
You can see stars in actual if the turbulence is bad enough.

Or if it's smooth and you're having a yummy bowl of Lucky Charms while George is flying the plane.
 
This post points out one of the biggest shortcomings in many civilian flight training programs. Foggles are virtually useless in providing good IFR training. If I ran the FAA I would require IFR training to be under a bag. They can be rigged in almost any aircraft and give a decent simulation of real IFR. The other issue is over reliance on simulators for IFR training. They are excellent for procedures but useless for truly simulating what happens in flight.
 
Jeff767 said:
This post points out one of the biggest shortcomings in many civilian flight training programs. Foggles are virtually useless in providing good IFR training. If I ran the FAA I would require IFR training to be under a bag. They can be rigged in almost any aircraft and give a decent simulation of real IFR. The other issue is over reliance on simulators for IFR training. They are excellent for procedures but useless for truly simulating what happens in flight.
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How about blue window tint and yellow glasses?
 
Jeff767 said:
This post points out one of the biggest shortcomings in many civilian flight training programs. Foggles are virtually useless in providing good IFR training. If I ran the FAA I would require IFR training to be under a bag. They can be rigged in almost any aircraft and give a decent simulation of real IFR. The other issue is over reliance on simulators for IFR training. They are excellent for procedures but useless for truly simulating what happens in flight.
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Garbage bag taped to top of the panel, bottom of pilot side window and to the pilots head would be a pretty good hood. However, it sort of restricts the view of the safety pilot.

MauleSkinner said:
How about blue window tint and yellow glasses?
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Polarized glass orientated one direction and polarized glasses the other.
 
EdFred said:
Garbage bag taped to top of the panel, bottom of pilot side window and to the pilots head would be a pretty good hood. However, it sort of restricts the view of the safety pilot.
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No problem.
SiameseErcoup_NoseFirst.jpg


twinercoupe-02.jpg
 
Personally, I always find it by far easier to fly in actual IMC than with some stupid hood on.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Even on a clear day? ;)
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lol - was more referring to the idea that flying with the hood is easier on the pilot than IMC. I find it easier/less stressful to fly by instruments in IMC than I do with an annoying hood on a VMC day.
 
Jeff767 said:
This post points out one of the biggest shortcomings in many civilian flight training programs. Foggles are virtually useless in providing good IFR training. If I ran the FAA I would require IFR training to be under a bag. They can be rigged in almost any aircraft and give a decent simulation of real IFR. The other issue is over reliance on simulators for IFR training. They are excellent for procedures but useless for truly simulating what happens in flight.
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I guess my experience was different....I used simulation for a very, very long time prior to starting real world IFR training. I found the differences to be trivial. I experienced spatial disorientation once while enroute at night...that was memorable but obviously incredibly easy to recognize as it was such a departure from normal ops. I'm not sure if it's the shear volume of hours spent in the sim, or the fidelity of the home sim....but whatever it was, I found the transition to flying IFR in the NAS to have almost 1:1 correlation with my simulation experience. I was absolutely primed to 'throw it all away' and be exposed to a slew of things that were "just different," and was stunned to see just how much carried over. Calling it "useless" is harsh IMO.
 
About a dozen years ago, a 30 year friend of mine (cut his teeth on Boeing 305) was requring increasing support for his increasingly complicated FIVE diagnosis medical SI situation. He was turning eighty. I said, Jerry, I'll support you but I have one condition- I want to fly with you. So into his Centurion we went and on went the hood. He flew a completely legal (within half scale) ILS but it was never stable. I was nearly at my "Barf myself" limit. At 200 I said, "Foggles off, let's land". He landed, a greaser of course.

I said, "Jerry, that was one of the worst ILSs I have ever endured". He replied, "I thought it was pretty good, as I haven't done one nor flown IMC for five years". He flew for two more years.......
 
Anyone care to comment on use of an autopilot during such times? I want to hand fly proficiently but have zero sense of machismo to make me hand fly in such a scenario.
 
In the Texan2 we used this flimsy Handmaid's Tale style hood since the bubble canopy was too expansive and non-modular (can't taxi with it open) to handle a dining room table sized curtain. In the T-38 we had a modular all-around curtain for the rear cockpit lid that did the job much better.

-brk brk-

To bring it back full circle since it was this thread that finally pushed me over the edge to comply with 91-75, just finished flight testing the second AI. It was a bit of a long and unduly expensive sidequest, complete with an ebay rip off job that set me back a few AMUs on a mechanical one (no more ebay for me for avionics), but that's for another day. Sprung for the revised RCA2610-3, with the built in digital sideslip indicator to satisfy the AC. Only complaint is the price of the instrument. Given that, I fully intend to take it out of the airplane and take with me to the next one to retain the capex. Not having plumbing to the pitot-static was a plus for me over other alternatives. A special shoutout to the *uckos who decided to not standardize connectors between turn coordinators and other electric gyros. Everything in this hobby just has to be cockeyed and gratuitously circuitous, digressing lol.

upload_2023-4-2_10-41-47.png
 
4RNB said:
Anyone care to comment on use of an autopilot during such times? I want to hand fly proficiently but have zero sense of machismo to make me hand fly in such a scenario.
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Autopilot would be a good option in this scenario, but needing to use it should trigger the same thoughts about proficiency and practice.

the other issue, though, is when pilots lose situational awareness like this, they often don’t have the awareness to control the autopilot effectively, either. But getting up and away from the ground to regroup is easier with autopilot.
 
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Go straight to your ai. Trust it. It is a precision instrument. it is the truth
 
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